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Carbo is to blame for all the dumb penalties

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Old
10-27-2006, 10:40 AM
  #26
!nkubus
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The only reason Carbo would be responsible is if he said the guys to take penalities to test he awesome PK tactics

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10-27-2006, 10:44 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Tatay Farlo View Post
Totally agree with this. The Lats experiment is over and he should head back to Juniors and give his spot to Kostitsyn who should've had it in the first place. He much more "NHL" ready than Lats is.
Yes. Let's promote a guy who isn't even performing on a lower level, and is also injured. Excellent proposal!

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10-27-2006, 10:45 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by hendextall View Post
No, inconsistent reffing is to blame for all the dumb penalties. The players don't know what is and what isn't a penalty anymore, it's ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by hendextall View Post
That's funny, because I replied with an answer to the penalty issue and you seem to have ignored it. Doesn't really look like you want to discuss this issue much, just to try to drive your point home is all.
Thats because I was looking up the stats ...

We are currently tied for 9th most Short handed situations in the league IN ONLY 9 games. Only two teams ahead of us (NYI and Dallas) have played as little number of games as us. That means that we are really top five (or bottom 5) once the number of games equal out.

So tell me, why is it that only our team along with a handful more that are the ones being sooooooo affected by the inconsistent reffing?


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10-27-2006, 10:46 AM
  #29
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Were not in the old nhl system anymore. Were in a new era of hockey and no matter how Discipline a team can be, the refs will allways find something to get you in the box. (komisarek body chek vs the bruins was clean and he got a two minut while the bruins were doing that all night.) I dont blame carbo for the way he reacts after a bad call. If the refs made a mistake once a game I dont think he would act that way but its not the case. The refs are being incosistant game after game and like it or not when a ref is allways inconsistant the coach and the players will not take it and were going to see frustration on both sides.
The refs are doing what ever they want and I find its really sad how its the refs who can pretty much decide the outcome of the game. The two games vs the sabres there were almost no penaltys called in the first and bang, in the second and 3 periods there were an avalanche of penaltys called for stuf the players were able to do in the 1st. Its not carbo fault the refs are incosistant.

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10-27-2006, 10:48 AM
  #30
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While I don't agree with AH as far as Carbo has no control, I think we might begin to think that beside our 1st line, every other line needs some changes and it did start with Sammy on the 3rd. While Perez and Pleks are working hard nothing happens statistically and evidently it will effect our +/-. So while everyone didn't want to touch the 3rd, it's clear that it's the right thing to do but then we need to find the right role for Pleks, Perez and Lats. I belive that's where we are right now, and if it doesn't work out, we might be obliged to change the 1st line as well.....

Working hard is not enough, especially if you're not a 4th liner, points needs to put on the scoreboard.....And I believe when Pleks, Perez and Lats find the right spot to play in, we'll be OK.

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10-27-2006, 10:55 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Thats because I was looking up the stats ...

We are currently tied for 9th most Short handed situations in the league IN ONLY 9 games. Only two teams ahead of us (NYI and Dallas) have played as little number of games as us. That means that we are really top five (or bottom 5) once the number of games equal out.

So tell me, why is it that only our team along with a handful more that are the ones being sooooooo affected by the inconsistent reffing?
That's a very astute observation, and if you look closer, our PP to PK ratio is 46:59, so we're definitely taking more penalties than we're drawing. I don't think Guy is to blame for this, there's only so much you can do to control players, but we definitely need to get more disciplined in our own end, where most of the penalties seem to be happening.

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10-27-2006, 10:59 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
That's a very astute observation, and if you look closer, our PP to PK ratio is 46:59, so we're definitely taking more penalties than we're drawing. I don't think Guy is to blame for this, there's only so much you can do to control players, but we definitely need to get more disciplined in our own end, where most of the penalties seem to be happening.
Thank you ... that's all that I am trying to say. The coach can only do so much, but at some point he does become responsible for the excessive stupidity of his players.

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10-27-2006, 11:06 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Thats because I was looking up the stats ...

We are currently tied for 9th most Short handed situations in the league IN ONLY 9 games. Only two teams ahead of us (NYI and Dallas) have played as little number of games as us. That means that we are really top five (or bottom 5) once the number of games equal out.

So tell me, why is it that only our team and only a handful more are the ones being affected by the inconsistent reffing?
Oh good, so you did end up looking at some stats. Now how about instead of just using your eye, you throw those stats into a spreadsheet and lets look at the real stats.

Montreal is averaging 6.555555556 penalties per game.
The League as a whole is averaging 5.895339105 penalties per game.
So yes, we are a little above average in the penalty department.

But if we take a look at the standard deviation (0.895241261)
of the penalties we find that 5.895339105 ± 0.895241261 throws Montreal well within the standard deviation of penalties taken by teams in the league.

That suggests to me that Montreal is normal compared to the rest of the league, and suggests that the rest of the teams are getting the same inconsistent calls as Montreal may be. Or they may be consistent calls I can only tell by the games i have watched. I usually watch at least 1 game a night and from what I've seen the reffing has been quite inconsistent.

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10-27-2006, 11:07 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Thank you ... that's all that I am trying to say. The coach can only do so much, but at some point he does become responsible for the excessive stupidity of his players.
I was very impressed how Carbo kept his cool at the end of the second period. This was definitely translated to the team who came of in the third and easily killed a 4x3 and 5x3. Carbo deserves credit for this. This was the turning point of the game.

I listened to Fournier after the game and said that Carbo is getting a bad rep (whining, complaining) with the officials. Fournier said that this can hurt a team. Any validity to this?

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10-27-2006, 11:16 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by hendextall View Post
Oh good, so you did end up looking at some stats. Now how about instead of just using your eye, you throw those stats into a spreadsheet and lets look at the real stats.

Montreal is averaging 6.555555556 penalties per game.
The League as a whole is averaging 5.895339105 penalties per game.
So yes, we are a little above average in the penalty department.

But if we take a look at the standard deviation (0.895241261)
of the penalties we find that 5.895339105 ± 0.895241261 throws Montreal well within the standard deviation of penalties taken by teams in the league.

That suggests to me that Montreal is normal compared to the rest of the league, and suggests that the rest of the teams are getting the same inconsistent calls as Montreal may be. Or they may be consistent calls I can only tell by the games i have watched. I usually watch at least 1 game a night and from what I've seen the reffing has been quite inconsistent.
Standard deviation doesnt take into account dumb vs smart penalties.

IMO, we take way too many dumb penalties (i.e. new NHL infractions).

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10-27-2006, 11:18 AM
  #36
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AH, I don't have the same take. There's no question that the Habs have been taking (been given) a lot of penalties. Some of them are the result of bad officiating, plain and simple.

Other penalties are the result of an aggressive style. To my eye, there actually hasn't been a lot of lazy penalties. With the exception of last night's game, the Habs are usually the team that sets the physical tempo. Under Julien and Green, for instance, the defencemen would rarely chase in the corners, and then only to smother rather than hit hard. The forecheck was more about trapping than checking. It's not like that anymore.

If anything, it looks like the players have bought into CarboMuller's aggressive style, from forwards to defence. Penalties are part of the price, but there's a difference between having to kill off a "good" penalty and a "bad" one. For the most part (with obvious exceptions), the Habs have been able to roll with the penalties because they aren't bad ones to begin with, not the kind of momentum-breaking boneheaded lazy plays.

All in all, I much prefer this style than the passive, neutral zone trap of past editions, even at the cost of a few more penalties so far.

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10-27-2006, 11:24 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH View Post
Thats because I was looking up the stats ...

We are currently tied for 9th most Short handed situations in the league IN ONLY 9 games. Only two teams ahead of us (NYI and Dallas) have played as little number of games as us. That means that we are really top five (or bottom 5) once the number of games equal out.

So tell me, why is it that only our team along with a handful more that are the ones being sooooooo affected by the inconsistent reffing?

Well earlier you noted that it was too early in the season to say our PK was good, because it is only 9 games in the season.
Now you tell us that IN ONLY 9 GAMES, we are tied in some other category.
Why wouldn't the fact that we've played only 9 games be used as an excuse for this too?

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10-27-2006, 11:26 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by davedave View Post
AH, I don't have the same take. There's no question that the Habs have been taking (been given) a lot of penalties. Some of them are the result of bad officiating, plain and simple.

Other penalties are the result of an aggressive style. To my eye, there actually hasn't been a lot of lazy penalties. With the exception of last night's game, the Habs are usually the team that sets the physical tempo. Under Julien and Green, for instance, the defencemen would rarely chase in the corners, and then only to smother rather than hit hard. The forecheck was more about trapping than checking. It's not like that anymore.

If anything, it looks like the players have bought into CarboMuller's aggressive style, from forwards to defence. Penalties are part of the price, but there's a difference between having to kill off a "good" penalty and a "bad" one. For the most part (with obvious exceptions), the Habs have been able to roll with the penalties because they aren't bad ones to begin with, not the kind of momentum-breaking boneheaded lazy plays.

All in all, I much prefer this style than the passive, neutral zone trap of past editions, even at the cost of a few more penalties so far.

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10-27-2006, 11:34 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Standard deviation doesnt take into account dumb vs smart penalties.

IMO, we take way too many dumb penalties (i.e. new NHL infractions).
So do you watch any other games that don't involve the Habs. Every other penalty must be a smart penalty then. Most penalties are dumb penalties, smart penalties are a very rare occurrence. So standard deviation will take it into account, since all teams take dumb and smart penalties.

I'm just failing to see your argument of how this is Carb's fault.

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10-27-2006, 11:34 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HABein View Post
Well earlier you noted that it was too early in the season to say our PK was good, because it is only 9 games in the season.
Now you tell us that IN ONLY 9 GAMES, we are tied in some other category.
Why wouldn't the fact that we've played only 9 games be used as an excuse for this too?
No. That we've only played 9 games should have us much lower than we actually are. So if that's the case, then we should be #3 or #4. Not the other way around.

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10-27-2006, 11:38 AM
  #41
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Hahaha....... and what about leadership? I haven't watch the game, but apparently TWO supposedly LEADERS got Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties.

This is not acceptable, specially from guys wearing A's on their shirt or seen as leaders. The refs may not be doing their job properly, but that is never the way you can bring them on your side.

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10-27-2006, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
That this team takes.

I see too many similarities with the Julien mess from last season when it was obvious that he had lost complete control of the team.

Basically it comes down to hustle and proper positioning (especially 5 on 5). These things are lacking in the team's game since the start of the season.

Discipline is a key component of coaching.

On a side note, have you guys seen the +/- stats for the team? uuuuugggggglyyyy *Once again, that's an operative of the 5 on 5 mess this team is in*
I too see a lot of similarities with Julien's era last year... I see about 80% of last year's line up...

And let's not go too hard on Julien, yes he does have a dog face and he has eyes like if he never went on any bright light but still, he is the coach of the NJ Devils, and was fired here because of Theodore...

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10-27-2006, 11:43 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
Hahaha....... and what about leadership? I haven't watch the game, but apparently TWO supposedly LEADERS got Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties.

This is not acceptable, specially from guys wearing A's on their shirt or seen as leaders. The refs may not be doing their job properly, but that is never the way you can bring them on your side.

Well the positive that can be taken out of that is that they're playing with emotion.

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10-27-2006, 11:46 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by hendextall View Post
So do you watch any other games that don't involve the Habs. Every other penalty must be a smart penalty then. Most penalties are dumb penalties, smart penalties are a very rare occurrence. So standard deviation will take it into account, since all teams take dumb and smart penalties.

I'm just failing to see your argument of how this is Carb's fault.
Team discipline always falls on the coach.

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10-27-2006, 11:47 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Team discipline always falls on the coach.
The coach can only prepare his team, but he cannot control the players' emotions when they are on the ice.

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10-27-2006, 11:48 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Habs4Lyfe View Post
Our record 5-2-2
We are 2nd in the Northeast Division
We are 4th in the Eastern Conference
We are 3rd on the PK in the NHL
We are 2nd on the PP in the NHL

yes u are right....I can see how Carbo is on his way to loosing COMPLETE control over his team
julien had a heck of a start too next year...u seem to quickly forget..

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10-27-2006, 11:49 AM
  #47
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I was very impressed how Carbo kept his cool at the end of the second period. This was definitely translated to the team who came of in the third and easily killed a 4x3 and 5x3. Carbo deserves credit for this. This was the turning point of the game.

I listened to Fournier after the game and said that Carbo is getting a bad rep (whining, complaining) with the officials. Fournier said that this can hurt a team. Any validity to this?
I don't know that Carbo has that rep as a coach. He did as a player though. At a point, he and Gretzky had the worst reps in the league, according to some ancient poll. I suspect Fournier may have had that in mind when he said that. I say that because I don't see him getting too animated, but the camera isn't on him all game, so

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10-27-2006, 11:52 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Team discipline always falls on the coach.
But I've proven that they aren't undisciplined. An undisciplined team would fall above the standard deviation like Phoenix, NYI, Pittsburgh, and Columbus. Your argument seems to have no basis

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10-27-2006, 12:17 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hendextall View Post
But I've proven that they aren't undisciplined. An undisciplined team would fall above the standard deviation like Phoenix, NYI, Pittsburgh, and Columbus. Your argument seems to have no basis
Actually it's your stats that have no basis. Numbers dont lie. We are bottom five in shorthanded siuations league wide. If you wanna pick on standard deviation, then why aren't we below it, as opposed to being above it.

Maybe it's me but 36 shortahanded situations in the last 5 games just seems a bit excessive. We have been out penalized in 4 of those games. It doesn't seem to be getting better. This concerns me.

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10-27-2006, 12:34 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by AH View Post
Actually it's your stats that have no basis. Numbers dont lie. We are bottom five in shorthanded siuations league wide. If you wanna pick on standard deviation, then why aren't we below it, as opposed to being above it.

Maybe it's me but 36 shortahanded situations in the last 5 games just seems a bit excessive. We have been out penalized in 4 of those games. It doesn't seem to be getting better. This concerns me.
Well only a couple teams are below the standard deviation, otherwise we are right in line with the rest of the league. You are right, we are bit above average, but that is not what we are arguing. You are arguing that it is Carb's fault for this, where I see it as inconsistent calls. Just need to take last nights game, where they weren't calling the usual stuff, and then out of nowhere began calling them. Penalties are being called differently every night. Rivet's unsportsmanlike was because he got pissed off for a hooking penalty that hadn't been called all night. It's a slippery slope the nhl runs on with penalty calls which confuse the players.

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