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GDT: Florida Panthers @ New York Rangers 10/25

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Old
10-26-2006, 12:01 PM
  #401
True Blue
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Everyone else is what they are: guys who'd look a heck of a lot better with 3 superior defenseman playing in front of them.
For a good long while (dating back to last year) we've said that you do not win with a defense that consists of nothing but # 4-7 defensemen (and most of them below that highwater mark of 4).

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10-26-2006, 12:06 PM
  #402
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Yes, you will, and you'll be on the gameday threads posting up.

Alot of you will, what else are you gonna do, go on dates?
Well, most likely I'll be sleeping since I have to be up at 5 AM every morning.

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10-26-2006, 12:14 PM
  #403
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Well, most likely I'll be sleeping since I have to be up at 5 AM every morning.
Sleep!? Why, when I was your age......

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10-26-2006, 12:35 PM
  #404
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Sleep!? Why, when I was your age......
Trust me, I'm up late everynight.

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10-26-2006, 01:11 PM
  #405
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You're right. It's an insult to Lundqvist to be compared with Dipietro.


Keep On Dreaming

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10-26-2006, 01:22 PM
  #406
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Keep On Dreaming
Who dreams of backup goalies?

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10-26-2006, 01:37 PM
  #407
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Keep On Dreaming
I hope you guys enjoy your 15 year dream.

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10-26-2006, 03:03 PM
  #408
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Keep On Dreaming
Even with Lundy playing bad right now he is still light years better than DiPietro who is mediocre.

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10-26-2006, 03:50 PM
  #409
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10-26-2006, 04:03 PM
  #410
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If Rozsival keeps turning the puck over 5 feet from the net like he did on that 3rd FLorida goal. No goaltender can help him.


I think you can honestly say something negative about every single defender on this team.

It's a bit ridiculous.
why the f@#$ would he pass the puck in to the center of the ice to begin with? that play gets slapped up the boards? i know this and i'm not a pro, why can't this idiot figure it out? i'm waayyy tired of this guy! said during off season we should let this guy walk? instead we give him a raise? ugh!! i hate that guy with passion and malik too! kasper needs to gio back to gettin in game shape because if says he is the he is done in the nhl! wish we had about 6 more guys with a heart like hollweg! we need colton orr to play if just to get in to a fight! list could go on but i think ya'll get my drift!

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Old
10-26-2006, 04:11 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by AHall18NYR View Post
Would it have hurt to give Staal the 10 game look??? I know its late now, that we sent Staal to juniors too early. Other teams are giving their rookies at least 10 games or so before they decide to send them to juniors. Would Staal have been that much worse than Rachunek
he can't be called up from the juniors! he should have stayed with team! his younger brother makes the penguins yet he can't make this team? its unbelievable they sent him down! he would probably be like the 3rd best d-man on the team. hate when my team sux as bad as they do!

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Old
10-26-2006, 08:51 PM
  #412
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I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying it's not the only thing you should look at when making an overall assessment of a defenseman's play.

I really don't care who would have played had Rachunek been benched. Renney said he was going to punish a player that hurt the team and he didn't, that's the point that I was making. Why am I "not shocked that went over your head"?
When the main problem is the other team scoring too many goals it's a pretty good place to start. You can at least get an educated guess as too whats going to happen when guys are on the ice..

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10-27-2006, 12:29 AM
  #413
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he can't be called up from the juniors! he should have stayed with team! his younger brother makes the penguins yet he can't make this team? its unbelievable they sent him down! he would probably be like the 3rd best d-man on the team. hate when my team sux as bad as they do!
It's just as well, especially since Staal really didn't play that well during training camp. A better question would be why aren't the Rangers calling Baranka (sp?)--he played well in the pre-season and can play a quiet, effective defensive game. He won't stand out, but could provide a solid 14-16 minutes a night.

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10-27-2006, 07:24 AM
  #414
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It's just as well, especially since Staal really didn't play that well during training camp. A better question would be why aren't the Rangers calling Baranka (sp?)--he played well in the pre-season and can play a quiet, effective defensive game. He won't stand out, but could provide a solid 14-16 minutes a night.
Agreed except his game will not be quiet. The kid has a nasty edge to his game. Give him 10-15 games to acclimate and you will see a tough young kid who can also skate and shoot. I saw him several times in Hartford and was quite impressed. I'm all the more frustrated watching the likes of Rachunek, Malik and Rozie fumble and stumble about. Baranka might do the same for a couple of games but he will improve dramatically and be a top four dman! The new core of defense needs to replace the mediocrity we now have in place

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10-27-2006, 07:57 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
When the main problem is the other team scoring too many goals it's a pretty good place to start. You can at least get an educated guess as too whats going to happen when guys are on the ice..
I wouldn't say that. Malik was beaten like a dog at least 4 times in the first and, while all those plays resulted in scoring chances, none of them resulted in a goal. Despite the almost unanimous sentinments that he was the worst defenseman on the ice, he ended up a +1 for the game. Go figure.

For me, the best indication of how someone is playing is to sit there and watch them play, not refer to the scoresheet. The reason a goal is scored may or not have something to do with a single play made by one of the defeseman on the ice. Obviously, a defeseman can play like garbage and be consistently be bailed out by his teammates or perhaps his opponent is just unable to finish, in which case no goals would be scored while he is on the ice. Does that mean he played a good game? Applying your logic, it does.

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10-27-2006, 09:16 AM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
For me, the best indication of how someone is playing is to sit there and watch them play, not refer to the scoresheet. The reason a goal is scored may or not have something to do with a single play made by one of the defeseman on the ice. Obviously, a defeseman can play like garbage and be consistently be bailed out by his teammates or perhaps his opponent is just unable to finish, in which case no goals would be scored while he is on the ice. Does that mean he played a good game? Applying your logic, it does.
The point is very well taken. Yet in the long run +/- and other stats do matter. The proof to your approach would be an examle of good playing player ending up with poor +/- for the season. That is never a case, whlie opposite sometimes happen.

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10-27-2006, 10:02 AM
  #417
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Yet in the long run +/- and other stats do matter. The proof to your approach would be an examle of good playing player ending up with poor +/- for the season. That is never a case, whlie opposite sometimes happen.
Adam Foote was a -16 last year. Kovulchuk a -6. Boynton a -7. Chris Drury was a -11. As was Vanek. Eric Staal a -8. Skrastins was a -7.

That is just a quick analysis. So much for good players never ending up with a poor +/-. That stat is the most overrated stat in all of hockey and is never a good example of how good a player is.

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10-27-2006, 11:54 AM
  #418
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Adam Foote was a -16 last year. Kovulchuk a -6. Boynton a -7. Chris Drury was a -11. As was Vanek. Eric Staal a -8. Skrastins was a -7.

That is just a quick analysis. So much for good players never ending up with a poor +/-. That stat is the most overrated stat in all of hockey and is never a good example of how good a player is.
All forwards you listed are a defensive liabililities. Foote is washed up by now, his best day in Colo maked by +30 seasons. Look at Lecavalier, instead. #1 pick had a few -25 seasons. After that Tortorella made him a +/- 0 player regardless of Vinny's resistance to coach's demands. It's ok for Staal to be -6 now. If he is -6 two sesons from now the corrections to his game would have to be made. There is no elite Ds with negative +/- unless they are old like Leetch or washed up or both.

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10-27-2006, 12:37 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
For me, the best indication of how someone is playing is to sit there and watch them play, not refer to the scoresheet. The reason a goal is scored may or not have something to do with a single play made by one of the defeseman on the ice. Obviously, a defeseman can play like garbage and be consistently be bailed out by his teammates or perhaps his opponent is just unable to finish, in which case no goals would be scored while he is on the ice.
Exactly why you can't draft of a score sheet or season stats.

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10-27-2006, 01:06 PM
  #420
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All forwards you listed are a defensive liabililities. Foote is washed up by now, his best day in Colo maked by +30 seasons. Look at Lecavalier, instead. #1 pick had a few -25 seasons. After that Tortorella made him a +/- 0 player regardless of Vinny's resistance to coach's demands. It's ok for Staal to be -6 now. If he is -6 two sesons from now the corrections to his game would have to be made. There is no elite Ds with negative +/- unless they are old like Leetch or washed up or both.
First of all, you said:
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The proof to your approach would be an examle of good playing player ending up with poor +/- for the season. That is never a case
I believe that I have dispelled that belief. Your contention was that good players do not have a poor +/-, was it not? Everything else is just an excuse. Good and great players DO wind up with poor +/-, do they not?

I never heard anyone refer to Eric Staal as a defensive liability. I had no idea that Boynton is a poor player. Ditto for Andrew Ference (-12). Or Janne Niinimaa (-5). Since when is Ryan Smyth (-5) a defensive liability? Or Joe Nieuwendyk (-2)? How about Mattias Norstrom (-3)? Or Aaron Miller (-6)? Is Jovo (-8) not an elite defenseman? What about Mattias Ohlund (-6)? Is Naslund (-19) not a good player?

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10-27-2006, 01:11 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
First of all, you said:

I believe that I have dispelled that belief. Your contention was that good players do not have a poor +/-, was it not? Everything else is just an excuse. Good and great players DO wind up with poor +/-, do they not?

I never heard anyone refer to Eric Staal as a defensive liability. I had no idea that Boynton is a poor player. Ditto for Andrew Ference (-12). Or Janne Niinimaa (-5). Since when is Ryan Smyth (-5) a defensive liability? Or Joe Nieuwendyk (-2)? How about Mattias Norstrom (-3)? Or Aaron Miller (-6)? Is Jovo (-8) not an elite defenseman? What about Mattias Ohlund (-6)? Is Naslund (-19) not a good player?
Or Drury.

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10-27-2006, 03:20 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
First of all, you said:

I believe that I have dispelled that belief. Your contention was that good players do not have a poor +/-, was it not? Everything else is just an excuse. Good and great players DO wind up with poor +/-, do they not?

I never heard anyone refer to Eric Staal as a defensive liability. I had no idea that Boynton is a poor player. Ditto for Andrew Ference (-12). Or Janne Niinimaa (-5). Since when is Ryan Smyth (-5) a defensive liability? Or Joe Nieuwendyk (-2)? How about Mattias Norstrom (-3)? Or Aaron Miller (-6)? Is Jovo (-8) not an elite defenseman? What about Mattias Ohlund (-6)? Is Naslund (-19) not a good player?
First, we have problem with definitions here. To you Brian Leetch may be a good player. To me he is not. When he was, he had good +/-.
Second, I don't see big difference between +3 and -3. Therefore many of your examples are not convincing to me. I appreciate your research on the matter. Seriously, I do. Good work. You did change my view on the subject somewhat, far from agreeing with you, though.
Yes I accept +/- does not represent exactly what it perceived to be. In math term it is not a function but correlation. Thus, it cannot be dismissed as a nonsense. No way.

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10-27-2006, 03:49 PM
  #423
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First, we have problem with definitions here. To you Brian Leetch may be a good player. To me he is not. When he was, he had good +/-.
Except that we are not talking about Brian Leetch. We are talking about Chris Drury, Eric Staal, Todd Betuzzi, Markus Naslund, Mattias Norstrom, Ed Jovonoski, etc. Your original point is that good players will not have poor +/- statistics. I believe that I have proven you wrong.
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Second, I don't see big difference between +3 and -3. Therefore many of your examples are not convincing to me.
Andrew Ference (-12), Aaron Miller (-6), Jovo (-8), Mattias Ohlund (-6), Naslund (-19), Staal (-11), Boynton (-7), Chris Drury (-11). Skrastins (-7).

Or is there not that much of a difference between +6 & -6 either? How about +8 & -8?
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Thus, it cannot be dismissed as a nonsense. No way.
When I see Chris Drury at -11, Eric Staal at -11, Markus Naslund at -19 & Mattias Ohlund at -6, I pretty much can. Or just look at Rozsival's +35 last year, relative to how many points he scored or overall defensive play.

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