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Old
07-11-2013, 08:02 AM
  #576
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Rangers are not trading McIlrath for Kevin Hayes. I very much doubt that at this point in time the Rangers have any plans to trade McIlrath at all. The ones who have to deal with it are the ones who want to trade McIlrath. All this talk about the game is changing blah, blah, blah is not going to change that at all.

Depending on your definition of whether or not Adam MacQuaid or Milan Lucic are goons--Chara definitely is not--Thornton more arguably so the Bruins without any really elite players up front went all the way to the Stanley Cup finals. All the above win more fights than they lose by the way. Fights often account for momentum swings and winning them usually account for more positive momentum swings so that part of it is kind of important. The important thing to me is the guy can play--forget Steve MacIntyre--maybe the best fighter out there but he's a **** player. Forget Parros (sorry Montreal), Orr, Boulton, Carkner, Bordeleau, Janssens etc. etc. etc. There are guys--there are not a lot of them--Prust was one, Engelland, Chris Neil those are the kind of guys the Rangers should try to find. Even just one would be a big help.

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07-11-2013, 08:13 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Rangers are not trading McIlrath for Kevin Hayes. I very much doubt that at this point in time the Rangers have any plans to trade McIlrath at all. The ones who have to deal with it are the ones who want to trade McIlrath. All this talk about the game is changing blah, blah, blah is not going to change that at all.

Depending on your definition of whether or not Adam MacQuaid or Milan Lucic are goons--Chara definitely is not--Thornton more arguably so the Bruins without any really elite players up front went all the way to the Stanley Cup finals. All the above win more fights than they lose by the way. Fights often account for momentum swings and winning them usually account for more positive momentum swings so that part of it is kind of important. The important thing to me is the guy can play--forget Steve MacIntyre--maybe the best fighter out there but he's a **** player. Forget Parros (sorry Montreal), Orr, Boulton, Carkner, Bordeleau, Janssens etc. etc. etc. There are guys--there are not a lot of them--Prust was one, Engelland, Chris Neil those are the kind of guys the Rangers should try to find. Even just one would be a big help.
Rangers have one in Dorsett. They could certainly use another one, maybe with a little more skill for the 3rd line.

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07-11-2013, 08:38 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Anaheim.
Those guys could do more with their hands than just form a fist with it. They were extremely gritty, but were also highly skilled and had two hall-of-famers on the back end.

I don't think anyone here would object to a Lucic, Perry, or even Bickell. It's the fact that a lot of times the lines are blurred between advocating those guys, and advocating guys like Colton Orr, Derek Boogaard or Donald Brashear. Those guys are stage fighters who once in a while can line up a big hit on an unsuspecting player. Those guys are dying off and many of us don't see the point in wasting a roster spot on them. Give me a heavyweight that can play more than 7 minutes a night and I'd be fine with it. I don't want one of these clowns that struts out and lines up a pointless stage fight off the faceoff.

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07-11-2013, 08:50 AM
  #579
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Who exactly is "soft" on this roster? Which of these players are running at the sight of the Bruins?

Who is so tough on the Bruins roster that the Rangers or any other team for that matter, cower in fear?

Lucic is the only real physical threat on that roster. Chara is large, woopie. Kreider knocked him on his ass.

There are no soft players on this roster. Not one player is reluctant to use the body or work for pucks.

Dorsett is exactly the same kind of player Prust is. Dorsett didn't have an opportunity to really play for the Rangers yet. Broken bone.

Little Zuccarello gets engaged and doesn't back down.

Toughness is a mental aspect. I don't see a single player on this roster shying away from physical play. Gaborik. He's gone.

Rangers didn't lose to the Bruins because the Bruins were some big bad team that puffed their chest and forced the Rangers to run. Give me a ****ing break. The Rangers lost because their coach couldn't adapt, left the Brins defenders at the point wide open, particularly Krug, and they couldn't finish their scring opportunities with enough efficiency. Thats why they lost.

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07-11-2013, 08:52 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Those guys could do more with their hands than just form a fist with it. They were extremely gritty, but were also highly skilled and had two hall-of-famers on the back end.

I don't think anyone here would object to a Lucic, Perry, or even Bickell. It's the fact that a lot of times the lines are blurred between advocating those guys, and advocating guys like Colton Orr, Derek Boogaard or Donald Brashear. Those guys are stage fighters who once in a while can line up a big hit on an unsuspecting player. Those guys are dying off and many of us don't see the point in wasting a roster spot on them. Give me a heavyweight that can play more than 7 minutes a night and I'd be fine with it. I don't want one of these clowns that struts out and lines up a pointless stage fight off the faceoff.
All you heard about after they won the Cup was how they bullied their way to it. They were a very big, physical, intimidating team.

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07-11-2013, 09:05 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by puckrush View Post
Who exactly is "soft" on this roster? Which of these players are running at the sight of the Bruins?

Who is so tough on the Bruins roster that the Rangers or any other team for that matter, cower in fear?

Lucic is the only real physical threat on that roster. Chara is large, woopie. Kreider knocked him on his ass.

There are no soft players on this roster. Not one player is reluctant to use the body or work for pucks.

Dorsett is exactly the same kind of player Prust is. Dorsett didn't have an opportunity to really play for the Rangers yet. Broken bone.

Little Zuccarello gets engaged and doesn't back down.

Toughness is a mental aspect. I don't see a single player on this roster shying away from physical play. Gaborik. He's gone.

Rangers didn't lose to the Bruins because the Bruins were some big bad team that puffed their chest and forced the Rangers to run. Give me a ****ing break. The Rangers lost because their coach couldn't adapt, left the Brins defenders at the point wide open, particularly Krug, and they couldn't finish their scring opportunities with enough efficiency. Thats why they lost.
I dont think we have many (if any) players that shy away from contact, but we certainly don't have players that relish it which, in my opinion, is a foundation for the mental aspect of toughness.

Nash is a strong example of what I worry about. The guy has all the talent in the world, but he sure doesnt seem to have the mindset where he'd be willing to run through a brick wall for a win.

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07-11-2013, 09:13 AM
  #582
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
I think it definitely is a factor in regular season play
Especially with some of our local rivals
Come playoffs - fighting is not so much of a factor - if it is one at all...there are barely ever fights in the playoffs that tip the series one way or the other
But fighting ones way into the playoffs is of course one way of getting there in the first place
Hardly saying it is the only way - but it is a way
Toughness is good
Together with speed, skill, defense, special teams and goaltending
Only tough players will not a champion make
Penalties are not advisable - especially in the playoffs
I know there is a generally held belief that if your team wins fights it translates into games won. It might be true but I doubt it.

Is anyone aware of a stat like that?

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07-11-2013, 09:16 AM
  #583
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Anaheim.
Anaheim was a tough team but that was the team that made people believe that Giguere was a superstar. He was unbelievable in those playoffs.

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07-11-2013, 09:17 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by puckrush View Post
Who exactly is "soft" on this roster? Which of these players are running at the sight of the Bruins?

Who is so tough on the Bruins roster that the Rangers or any other team for that matter, cower in fear?

Lucic is the only real physical threat on that roster. Chara is large, woopie. Kreider knocked him on his ass.

There are no soft players on this roster. Not one player is reluctant to use the body or work for pucks.

Dorsett is exactly the same kind of player Prust is. Dorsett didn't have an opportunity to really play for the Rangers yet. Broken bone.

Little Zuccarello gets engaged and doesn't back down.

Toughness is a mental aspect. I don't see a single player on this roster shying away from physical play. Gaborik. He's gone.

Rangers didn't lose to the Bruins because the Bruins were some big bad team that puffed their chest and forced the Rangers to run. Give me a ****ing break. The Rangers lost because their coach couldn't adapt, left the Brins defenders at the point wide open, particularly Krug, and they couldn't finish their scring opportunities with enough efficiency. Thats why they lost.
I don't recall Kreider knocking Chara on his ass. He knocked Seidenberg on his ass--a couple of times.

The end result of Lucic going to the front of the net is he stays there--he doesn't get moved away because there is no one on our defense big enough and tough enough to move him (and moving him means being ready, willing and able to go nose to nose with him because he is that kind of a player--he won't move without brute force) and so his presence there causes a lot of havoc. Again Henrik didn't get beaten very often by shots he could see--the Bruins got their goals from stuff in rebounds, screens and deflections. On the side Lucic also rammed Stralman into the end boards-and Stralman was playing really well--resulting in a slightly separated shoulder and a facial fracture and putting him out of action for the remainder of the series and thus forcing Eminger into top 4 minutes. So right Lucic was a non factor in the Bruins knocking us out.

Now I admire Zuccarello's pluck and sticking up for himself but he's not going to the front of the net except on timed runs--like Hagelin. He's certainly not got the size and/or the strength to handle any of Chara, Boynton, McQuaid or Seidenberg. Not many Rangers wingers have and some of those who do aren't all that willing.

On the subject of Dorsett--he is somewhat the same kind of player that Prust is. A guy who can kill penalties and knocked some pucks into the net once in a while. He is a heart and soul guy who will stick up for his teammates and fight whoever. That being said he is a smaller version of Prust and he's not a good fighter. Saying this over and over to you guys--you're too lazy to go look for yourselves at Hockeyfights.com. It's all there. Watch a bunch of Prust fights. Watch a bunch of Dorsett fights. If you can conclude afterwards that Dorsett's as good a fighter as Prust you're ****ing blind.

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07-11-2013, 09:18 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Rangers are not trading McIlrath for Kevin Hayes. I very much doubt that at this point in time the Rangers have any plans to trade McIlrath at all. The ones who have to deal with it are the ones who want to trade McIlrath. All this talk about the game is changing blah, blah, blah is not going to change that at all.

Depending on your definition of whether or not Adam MacQuaid or Milan Lucic are goons--Chara definitely is not--Thornton more arguably so the Bruins without any really elite players up front went all the way to the Stanley Cup finals. All the above win more fights than they lose by the way. Fights often account for momentum swings and winning them usually account for more positive momentum swings so that part of it is kind of important. The important thing to me is the guy can play--forget Steve MacIntyre--maybe the best fighter out there but he's a **** player. Forget Parros (sorry Montreal), Orr, Boulton, Carkner, Bordeleau, Janssens etc. etc. etc. There are guys--there are not a lot of them--Prust was one, Engelland, Chris Neil those are the kind of guys the Rangers should try to find. Even just one would be a big help.
MacQuaid and Lucic are not even close to goons and Krejci is an elite player. Actually, so is Lucic.

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07-11-2013, 09:20 AM
  #586
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
All you heard about after they won the Cup was how they bullied their way to it. They were a very big, physical, intimidating team.
I heard more about Giguere than anything else.

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07-11-2013, 09:23 AM
  #587
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I heard more about Giguere than anything else.
Every team tried to get bigger and tougher after that.

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07-11-2013, 09:33 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
MacQuaid and Lucic are not even close to goons and Krejci is an elite player. Actually, so is Lucic.
Depends on who you call elite. To me Nash is not elite. He's a star--a legit 1st liner who can occasionally carry a team--falls somewhere short of a superstar. Basically elite I've reserved for Crosby, Malkin--maybe Erik Karlsson--sometimes Ovechkin a few others--guys I think who have an excellent chance of being HOF'ers one day. Krejci doesn't quite fill that for me--Lucic is like a bigger version of Adam Graves. Wonderful players to have on your team but not future HOF'ers. I really love Patrice Bergeron actually more than Krejci. Great at both ends of the ice--does all the little things really well. Stepan reminds me of a younger Bergeron--just not as fast and not nearly as good on face-offs but hockey IQ is right through the roof.

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07-11-2013, 10:00 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont think we have many (if any) players that shy away from contact, but we certainly don't have players that relish it which, in my opinion, is a foundation for the mental aspect of toughness.

Nash is a strong example of what I worry about. The guy has all the talent in the world, but he sure doesnt seem to have the mindset where he'd be willing to run through a brick wall for a win.
We don't have a Lucic. But how many teams do. Clowe would have been nice to keep around if he didn't suffer three concussions in half of a season and weren't on a decline.

Dorsett is a pest, and a physical player. I think we will be pleasantly surprised with Kristo, who is a pest and has skill. With two of our more important wingers recovering from injury, he may get a shot.

Dominic Moore is a pain in the neck to play against.

Of course we could use a winger like Clowe, but there really isn't an opportunity to add one right now. This roster isn't particularly small, and they do work hard.

Nash is big, he shouldn't necessarily be throwing his body around, however. He uses his big body to his advantage, shielding the puck and using his reach.

At one point in the Bruins series, Brassard had it with Marchand and dropped his gloves ready to beat the crap out of him, but Marchand ran like the momo he is.

Haley is a physical player, and if management is smart enough to move Pyatt and Boyle, and keep Asham and Powe off the roster, Haley could be used as a 13th forward.

Mashinter can't play hockey, so i wouldn't count on him.

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07-11-2013, 10:01 AM
  #590
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I don't recall Kreider knocking Chara on his ass. He knocked Seidenberg on his ass--a couple of times.
He did and i recall Chara being embarrassed about it.


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07-11-2013, 12:03 PM
  #591
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I don't think you can find a single poster who has written that they don't want skilled, big physical players.

A quick read through the thread will display some that do want guys who fight and win at fights. Some of us look at that as a non-factor.
OK. Thank you. Now we are finally getting to it.

Hockey is all about who has more. Not who has less. Thus the teams with the best combination of bigger, faster, stronger, more skilled players win. I don't think any one can deny that.

My position is that fighting is still important because physical confrontation remains at the heart of the game along with skill and toughness. Any one who has actually played the game understands this on a practical level.

To sum it up: Balance.

You need a Jean Ratelle. You also need Vic Hadfield. Guy Lafleur, Larry Robinson. Patrick Kane, Bryan Bickell and so on.

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07-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #592
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the game of hockey is changing, as are the fans. Deal with it.
Not to the extreme that your world is. Deal with it kid.

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07-11-2013, 12:16 PM
  #593
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He did and i recall Chara being embarrassed about it.
Well I don't recall it and I just went over to youtube and found him hitting Seidenberg easily enough but when I plugged in Chris Kreider and Chara--no luck. I think you got the wrong guy--Chara usually plays on the other side from Kreider.

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07-11-2013, 12:16 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont think we have many (if any) players that shy away from contact, but we certainly don't have players that relish it which, in my opinion, is a foundation for the mental aspect of toughness.

Nash is a strong example of what I worry about. The guy has all the talent in the world, but he sure doesnt seem to have the mindset where he'd be willing to run through a brick wall for a win.
I feel the same way about Nash. He shys away from contact all the time. Especially along the board when the puck is being wheeled around to him in the defensive zone. He looks worried about colliding with the winger in front of him or the defender behind him. He'll sometimes stab at the puck to poke it past the winger, spin off and go the other way without major contact. He doesn't like to get tied up and battle in the dirty areas.

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07-11-2013, 12:22 PM
  #595
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OK. Thank you. Now we are finally getting to it.

Hockey is all about who has more. Not who has less. Thus the teams with the best combination of bigger, faster, stronger, more skilled players win. I don't think any one can deny that.

My position is that fighting is still important because physical confrontation remains at the heart of the game along with skill and toughness. Any one who has actually played the game understands this on a practical level.

To sum it up: Balance.

You need a Jean Ratelle. You also need Vic Hadfield. Guy Lafleur, Larry Robinson. Patrick Kane, Bryan Bickell and so on.
I played college hockey and while fighters were necessary then, they no longer are.

Hadfield was a fighter but he did score 50 goals.

Fighting used to be a rite of passage. Tough guys would come up and fight and then become hockey players. Guys like Ferguson, Kurtenbach, Probert, Neely, Hadfield, Tocchet, and so on. You didn't stay if all you could do was fight. At some point it changed and the age of the one-dimensional goon appeared. Now they are disappearing again. Sather seems to have not figured this out yet.

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07-11-2013, 12:41 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Anaheim.
I remember Pronger Crosschecking and Elbowing his way to the cup

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07-11-2013, 12:53 PM
  #597
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I know fighting doesn't exist in hockey anymore and no team has or wants fighters but for some stranger reason the Islanders are bringing in a boat load to evaluate.

http://nyienforcers.proboards.com/in...og&thread=3204

I rememeber the 80's, when the Islanders used to beat the **** out of us...get ready...it is going to happen again soon.

We have one guy in our entire system that can answer the bell...McIrath, one and that's it.

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07-11-2013, 12:55 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I know fighting doesn't exist in hockey anymore and no team has or wants fighters but for some stranger reason the Islanders are bringing in a boat load to evaluate.

http://nyienforcers.proboards.com/in...og&thread=3204

I rememeber the 80's, when the Islanders used to beat the **** out of us...get ready...it is going to happen again soon.

We have one guy in our entire system that can answer the bell...McIrath, one and that's it.
Sam Noreau is a pretty devastating fighter. Jason Wilson. Andrew Yogan. Ryan Graves. According to Dagoon, the organization is high on Mashinter as well. They have some players, just would be nice to have a couple more on the NHL squad.

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07-11-2013, 01:04 PM
  #599
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I played college hockey and while fighters were necessary then, they no longer are.

Hadfield was a fighter but he did score 50 goals.

Fighting used to be a rite of passage. Tough guys would come up and fight and then become hockey players. Guys like Ferguson, Kurtenbach, Probert, Neely, Hadfield, Tocchet, and so on. You didn't stay if all you could do was fight. At some point it changed and the age of the one-dimensional goon appeared. Now they are disappearing again. Sather seems to have not figured this out yet.
I agree the game has gone back to a place where skill is the most important thing. Goons are done. You have to be able to play and the game is better for it, imo.

My main point is this. The NHL is still a very physical game. A team that has the likes of a Ferguson, Kurtenbach, Probert, Neely, Hadfield, Tocchet, and so on will be a better team. You need these types of players to balance and give room to your smaller or more skilled players.

I respect the fact that you played on a very competitive level. You never felt physically over whelmed or intimidated by bigger stronger players? I was not a college player, but I know I was. Having some bigger players around allowed me to have a bit more confidence to mix it up a bit more physically.

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07-11-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I know fighting doesn't exist in hockey anymore and no team has or wants fighters but for some stranger reason the Islanders are bringing in a boat load to evaluate.

http://nyienforcers.proboards.com/in...og&thread=3204

I rememeber the 80's, when the Islanders used to beat the **** out of us...get ready...it is going to happen again soon.

We have one guy in our entire system that can answer the bell...McIrath, one and that's it.
The Islanders already have skill players. They are trying to balance with some tougher players for their bottom six. The Islanders are going to be very tough to play against going forward.

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