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Old
07-11-2013, 01:12 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Well I don't recall it and I just went over to youtube and found him hitting Seidenberg easily enough but when I plugged in Chris Kreider and Chara--no luck. I think you got the wrong guy--Chara usually plays on the other side from Kreider.
Zucc did. There are pictures of it, dunno about video.

Edit:

Here you go:



Last edited by Hellion: 07-11-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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07-11-2013, 01:13 PM
  #602
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The Islanders already have skill players. They are trying to balance with some tougher players for their bottom six. The Islanders are going to be very tough to play against going forward.
They have a questionable defense and zero answers in goal when Nabakov skips town -- judging from his playoff performance, that time may have already passed. They will have just as many question marks as the Rangers - pretending its just a matter of time before they start blowing us away is just fear mongering.

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07-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #603
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I played college hockey and while fighters were necessary then, they no longer are.

Hadfield was a fighter but he did score 50 goals.

Fighting used to be a rite of passage. Tough guys would come up and fight and then become hockey players. Guys like Ferguson, Kurtenbach, Probert, Neely, Hadfield, Tocchet, and so on. You didn't stay if all you could do was fight. At some point it changed and the age of the one-dimensional goon appeared. Now they are disappearing again. Sather seems to have not figured this out yet.
So in summary, this is what the quintessential power forward should be like: "Skates like the wind, shoots like lightning, hits like a tornado."

Players in the mold of Glenn Anderson, Mark Messier, Gordie Howe, Cam Neely, Eric Lindros, Gary Roberts (before serious injuries slowed him down) - all Lightning Bruiser-type first line power forwards. Didn't former Flyers coach Terry Murray say that power forwards of this ilk were the future of the NHL when he formed the Legion of Doom line (LeClair-Lindros-Renberg) back in 1995? That's been a time-tested essential for success in the NHL.

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07-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I know fighting doesn't exist in hockey anymore and no team has or wants fighters but for some stranger reason the Islanders are bringing in a boat load to evaluate.

http://nyienforcers.proboards.com/in...og&thread=3204

I rememeber the 80's, when the Islanders used to beat the **** out of us...get ready...it is going to happen again soon.

We have one guy in our entire system that can answer the bell...McIrath, one and that's it.
Most if not all of these training camp invitees have no NHL future. Again these days--if you have someone who fights--he has to be able to skate and to play and be somewhat diversified. Prust for instance can put up 20-25 points a season is defensively responsible and kills penalties. I don't like 3rd-4th liners who only do one thing. We'll take Pyatt for an example--up and down his wing--not much use on the pwp and never kills penalties--hits but not hard enough to be memorable hits--not a big offensive threat. He's pretty much worthless in my eyes--but a guy you only use for 3 shifts a night and only as an enforcer is not much good either. The best teams roll 4 lines--on the best teams even their 4th lines score enough to keep other team's from taking them for granted. I'm all for upgrading the Rangers toughness--adding guys willing to drop the gloves but they have to be the right guys and finding them is real work--you just don't take the baddest guy out there if he doesn't know how to play.

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07-11-2013, 01:17 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Most if not all of these training camp invitees have no NHL future. Again these days--if you have someone who fights--he has to be able to skate and to play and be somewhat diversified. Prust for instance can put up 20-25 points a season is defensively responsible and kills penalties. I don't like 3rd-4th liners who only do one thing. We'll take Pyatt for an example--up and down his wing--not much use on the pwp and never kills penalties--hits but not hard enough to be memorable hits--not a big offensive threat. He's pretty much worthless in my eyes--but a guy you only use for 3 shifts a night and only as an enforcer is not much good either. The best teams roll 4 lines--on the best teams even their 4th lines score enough to keep other team's from taking them for granted. I'm all for upgrading the Rangers toughness--adding guys willing to drop the gloves but they have to be the right guys and finding them is real work--you just don't take the baddest guy out there if he doesn't know how to play.
Exactly! Finally, someone gets it!

This is what I have been screaming for years. Need more guys who can drop the gloves AND play the game.

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07-11-2013, 01:17 PM
  #606
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Sammy the bull is a beast and I feel a even better fighter then the undertaker

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07-11-2013, 01:17 PM
  #607
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The Islanders already have skill players. They are trying to balance with some tougher players for their bottom six. The Islanders are going to be very tough to play against going forward.
Talking about training invitees is one thing but the Islanders are going to be a tough team to play against this year. Both Matt Martin and Cal Clutterbuck have led the NHL in hits in different years. These guys take the body constantly.

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07-11-2013, 01:19 PM
  #608
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Sam Noreau is a pretty devastating fighter. Jason Wilson. Andrew Yogan. Ryan Graves. According to Dagoon, the organization is high on Mashinter as well. They have some players, just would be nice to have a couple more on the NHL squad.
very fair...i forgot about some of those guy.

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07-11-2013, 01:20 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Well I don't recall it and I just went over to youtube and found him hitting Seidenberg easily enough but when I plugged in Chris Kreider and Chara--no luck. I think you got the wrong guy--Chara usually plays on the other side from Kreider.
Nope Kreider knocked Chara on his ass. YouTube isn't the be all end all.

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07-11-2013, 01:21 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I know fighting doesn't exist in hockey anymore and no team has or wants fighters but for some stranger reason the Islanders are bringing in a boat load to evaluate.

http://nyienforcers.proboards.com/in...og&thread=3204

I rememeber the 80's, when the Islanders used to beat the **** out of us...get ready...it is going to happen again soon.

We have one guy in our entire system that can answer the bell...McIrath, one and that's it.
Or, and just a suggestion, our guys could simply not fight their goons, and play hockey instead.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy some hockey fights. Dubi and Richards fights, Prust and Sestito, Sauer used to do it well. Cally's not the biggest fighter, but he'll defend teammates and fight whoever, from Cooke to Travis Moen.

I remember in recent years, having John Scott, Mike Rupp, Stu Bick, and thinking who on any other team is going to fight these guys that I care about? Who are they scaring, or deterring? They're just going to line up against Carkner or Shelly or Sestio, and give the skaters a break.

I remember having guys who can fight is a good thing. We goaded Sestio into 3 fights when he was with Philly, and got him out of the game so he couldn't take any extra cheap shots.

Then there was Boyle/Carkner. Boyle took some liberties with their stars, and Carkner jumped him. The Rangers got a 5 minute major powerplay. There was time to win the game RIGHT THERE (just ask NJ), but we couldn't get ****. If they had remotely feared a NY powerplay, Carkner never would have done that.

You don't need fighters, you need tough. Think DZ/Neil. Del Z would NEVER fight Neil, but he crushed him. Neil came out with a threat about finding DZ with his head down, and the very next game, on their first shift against each other, Del Z went out and crushed the son of a ***** again.

THAT'S my idea of toughness.

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07-11-2013, 01:22 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
They have a questionable defense and zero answers in goal when Nabakov skips town -- judging from his playoff performance, that time may have already passed. They will have just as many question marks as the Rangers - pretending its just a matter of time before they start blowing us away is just fear mongering.
They won't blow us away. They will be tough to play against. That's all I said.

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07-11-2013, 01:23 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Or, and just a suggestion, our guys could simply not fight their goons, and play hockey instead.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy some hockey fights. Dubi and Richards fights, Prust and Sestito, Sauer used to do it well. Cally's not the biggest fighter, but he'll defend teammates and fight whoever, from Cooke to Travis Moen.

I remember in recent years, having John Scott, Mike Rupp, Stu Bick, and thinking who on any other team is going to fight these guys that I care about? Who are they scaring, or deterring? They're just going to line up against Carkner or Shelly or Sestio, and give the skaters a break.

I remember having guys who can fight is a good thing. We goaded Sestio into 3 fights when he was with Philly, and got him out of the game so he couldn't take any extra cheap shots.

Then there was Boyle/Carkner. Boyle took some liberties with their stars, and Carkner jumped him. The Rangers got a 5 minute major powerplay. There was time to win the game RIGHT THERE (just ask NJ), but we couldn't get ****. If they had remotely feared a NY powerplay, Carkner never would have done that.

You don't need fighters, you need tough. Think DZ/Neil. Del Z would NEVER fight Neil, but he crushed him. Neil came out with a threat about finding DZ with his head down, and the very next game, on their first shift against each other, Del Z went out and crushed the son of a ***** again.

THAT'S my idea of toughness.
Good post. When I want to watch hockey, I turn on a hockey game.

When I want to watch fighting, I watch boxing or MMA.

The Islanders are not going to beat us because of the goons they're inviting to camp - they're going to beat us because the Rangers dont have a guy like John Tavares.

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07-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
very fair...i forgot about some of those guy.
Yeah, it would be nice to have a couple more forwards who could do both but that may be nitpicking.

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07-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
Zucc did. There are pictures of it, dunno about video.

Edit:

Here you go:

Yeah--well as I said I admire Zucc's gumption--he's not an afraid player. He's still not able to stand in front of the net and stay there with guys beating on him. As far as hits go--you hit somebody right and it doesn't really matter how big one or the other is. Chara is a physical force. Zuccarello is not. He is very strong and stocky for his size and more of a creative player than the good bulk of his teammates and he won't back off if someone is pushing on him but he is by no means a physical player.

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07-11-2013, 01:25 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Or, and just a suggestion, our guys could simply not fight their goons, and play hockey instead.

Don't misunderstand, I enjoy some hockey fights. Dubi and Richards fights, Prust and Sestito, Sauer used to do it well. Cally's not the biggest fighter, but he'll defend teammates and fight whoever, from Cooke to Travis Moen.

I remember in recent years, having John Scott, Mike Rupp, Stu Bick, and thinking who on any other team is going to fight these guys that I care about? Who are they scaring, or deterring? They're just going to line up against Carkner or Shelly or Sestio, and give the skaters a break.

I remember having guys who can fight is a good thing. We goaded Sestio into 3 fights when he was with Philly, and got him out of the game so he couldn't take any extra cheap shots.

Then there was Boyle/Carkner. Boyle took some liberties with their stars, and Carkner jumped him. The Rangers got a 5 minute major powerplay. There was time to win the game RIGHT THERE (just ask NJ), but we couldn't get ****. If they had remotely feared a NY powerplay, Carkner never would have done that.

You don't need fighters, you need tough. Think DZ/Neil. Del Z would NEVER fight Neil, but he crushed him. Neil came out with a threat about finding DZ with his head down, and the very next game, on their first shift against each other, Del Z went out and crushed the son of a ***** again.

THAT'S my idea of toughness.
That's a good point well made. That was a very important point in that series. I think a team with a tough skill player like Del Zotto and a skilled tough player like Neil is a better team.

Players that complement each other.

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07-11-2013, 01:27 PM
  #616
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Nope Kreider knocked Chara on his ass. YouTube isn't the be all end all.
I didn't say it was or that it didn't happen but we're still waiting for your evidence. We do have the Seidenberg hits--they are very good ones.

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07-11-2013, 01:31 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Most if not all of these training camp invitees have no NHL future. Again these days--if you have someone who fights--he has to be able to skate and to play and be somewhat diversified. Prust for instance can put up 20-25 points a season is defensively responsible and kills penalties. I don't like 3rd-4th liners who only do one thing. We'll take Pyatt for an example--up and down his wing--not much use on the pwp and never kills penalties--hits but not hard enough to be memorable hits--not a big offensive threat. He's pretty much worthless in my eyes--but a guy you only use for 3 shifts a night and only as an enforcer is not much good either. The best teams roll 4 lines--on the best teams even their 4th lines score enough to keep other team's from taking them for granted. I'm all for upgrading the Rangers toughness--adding guys willing to drop the gloves but they have to be the right guys and finding them is real work--you just don't take the baddest guy out there if he doesn't know how to play.
Totally agree.

The Islanders are always looking for tougher players. They want an edge to balance their skill I suspect.

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07-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #618
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He is someone people on this board called tough .. If I ever fought like that my dad would hide in the closet

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I01Ncx4VSno

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07-11-2013, 01:37 PM
  #619
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Who exactly is "soft" on this roster? Which of these players are running at the sight of the Bruins?

Who is so tough on the Bruins roster that the Rangers or any other team for that matter, cower in fear?

Lucic is the only real physical threat on that roster. Chara is large, woopie. Kreider knocked him on his ass.

There are no soft players on this roster. Not one player is reluctant to use the body or work for pucks.

Dorsett is exactly the same kind of player Prust is. Dorsett didn't have an opportunity to really play for the Rangers yet. Broken bone.

Little Zuccarello gets engaged and doesn't back down.

Toughness is a mental aspect. I don't see a single player on this roster shying away from physical play. Gaborik. He's gone.

Rangers didn't lose to the Bruins because the Bruins were some big bad team that puffed their chest and forced the Rangers to run. Give me a ****ing break. The Rangers lost because their coach couldn't adapt, left the Brins defenders at the point wide open, particularly Krug, and they couldn't finish their scring opportunities with enough efficiency. Thats why they lost.
It got lost a bunch of pages back, but I answered your first question below. I never did get a good response back from the group that thinks we aren't soft, I'd be curious to hear if you have one.

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Some of those people yes, but sure as hell isn't me or the whole group.

We got rid of Torts because we don't want to do those hard working things anymore. ***** Nash and company want to just loaf around in the neutral zone waiting for a pass from the D. I should say for me, I have no problems with back end. They're not soft. The forwards on the other hand? Probably the softest group of forwards in the league. We saw that with the *****ing that obviously came from them that got torts fired.

Nash, Hags, MZA, Brass, Richards, Pyatt are all particularly soft.
Step, Kreider, Poul are average.
Cally, Boyle, Moore, Dorsett play with an edge.

So that as a numbers game already looks soft. More soft guys than anything else. But then when you start looking at the TOI guys are going to be getting and it gets real scary for us. Three of the four guys who play with an edge are fourth line guys. At least four of the soft guys are top six guys, one clearly top line. That's easy for other teams to play against, especially since these soft "skill" guys aren't all that skilled.

So that's where my problem resides. I can accept that we're not going to be the most skilled team, we haven't tanked for half a decade or more. But that means you have to play with an edge, and we can't right now because too many of our guys either refuse (Nash amongst others) or can't (MZA amongst others) or a little of both

And Sather proved he's not looking for them to play with an edge by caving to the weak's demands and firing a guy who demanded your effort for a guy who is used to coddling highly skilled guys. AV used to barely ever have the Sedins play in their own zone. This is only going to make our soft players bad habits worse.

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07-11-2013, 01:47 PM
  #620
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He is someone people on this board called tough .. If I ever fought like that my dad would hide in the closet

Lets be real here, they're fighting on ice. Ice is slippery. Brian Boyle could be one dangerous son of a ***** on dry land, but he's got awful balance on skates. It doesn't take much. Even past that, even the toughest son of a ***** can be caught by a takedown, or simply trip.

Marc got dragged down, and Semin, well, to this day nobody know what Semin was trying to do.

Losing a fight doesn't make someone weak, or soft. Maybe Staalsy isn't the best fighter. He's still a big, strong, tough defenseman. And however the fight went, he took Semin off the ice for 5 minutes.

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07-11-2013, 01:49 PM
  #621
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Im not sure if people were closely eying games, but Zuccarello was one of the more physically engaging forwards on this roster. He always went into the crease and behind the net to dig for loose pucks. His shiftiness an short frame prevented him from getting hit at all. He is a tough player who goes to the dirty areas to try and help the team. Others on this roster can take notes from him.

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07-11-2013, 01:51 PM
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Hawks didn't have any good fighters in their lineup. You don't MMA your way to the cup.

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07-11-2013, 01:54 PM
  #623
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Hawks didn't have any good fighters in their lineup. You don't MMA your way to the cup.
Mayars. Carcillo. Bollig. They replaced Stalberg with Bollig to start the Boston series.

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07-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #624
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That's a good point well made. That was a very important point in that series. I think a team with a tough skill player like Del Zotto and a skilled tough player like Neil is a better team.

Players that complement each other.
See, I HATE Neil. Which means he's doing it right. He's a pest, an agitator, he scores well for his role and if he has to, he'll throw down with anyone.

He gave us fits that series. What a pain in the ass to play against. You want someone like that (Dorsett may be a bit of Neil-lite), but they're not invincible. Someone like Del Zotto comes along and puts down one of their tough guys? That's infuriating, demoralizing, and even more it actually threw Neil off his game(!).

We don't need to bring in tough guys. We need our skilled guys to be tough.



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07-11-2013, 01:58 PM
  #625
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Hawks didn't have any good fighters in their lineup. You don't MMA your way to the cup.
Heh, heh. Not that I really care, but no one takes a troll seriously. Whatever.

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