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Free Agent Friend-Z Part III - Moore please?

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07-11-2013, 01:00 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Christ what a **** show this forum is becoming. Typical gamer response. It's all about the numbers, reading a piece of paper.

I find it humorous that you claim the reason the rangers wouldn't trade Kreider for Perron is because the rangers couldn't fit Perron's cap hit. YET, the Rangers wouldn't deal Kreider for Rick Nash. What don't you comprehend.
Because the Rangers literally couldn't add to the cap that Perron was carrying, they were that tight to it. Meanwhile in the Nash trade, the Rangers IIRC had around 12 million in cap space.

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The stats do not show it all. Kreider is listed almost 20 pounds heavier than Paajarvi. They are NOT the same player. They do not play the same games. And the only reason Paajarvi has played so many more NHL games is because EDM has had garbage teams the past 3 years. They had no depth, hardly any vets. They had no choice but to play him. I am not saying he is a bad hockey player but he has certainly had more time in the NHL. And if you really want to go off of stats, lets look at trends and not just totals. He had 34 points in 80 games in his first year. The following season he bounced between Oklahoma and Edmonton. He had 8 points in 41 GP two years ago. This past year he got back up near his rookie season production at 16 points in 42 GP. So we'll say he is a 35 point player to this point. I am not impressed. Paajarvi has skills but he is a different player than Kreider. Kreider is bigger overall. I'd love to see how these two pan out this season. Let's talk at the end of the 2014 season.
The only reason you listed to me why Kreider is better is because he weights more. Yeah, I'm not really convinced that his added 20 lbs is going to make him a better hockey player.

You do realize that at one point, Paajarvi was a top 10 prospect on this website?

Paajarvi is the same age as Kreider and had a far more impressive NHL resume from his rookie season. It can't be stated how disastrous Kreider's rookie stint was with the Rangers shot differential wise, that alone gives a lot of warning signs on his game.


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Regardless of the comparison...this isn't NHL '13 or '14. I know your eyes light up every time a scoring forward is moved and you start complaining why couldn't the rangers trade for him. Perron is 25 and has had 2-3 concussions already, missing significant amount of time. The Rangers can't afford to take his cap hit with his injury risk no matter who we could've offered for him. I wouldn't trade anything of significance from our prospect pool for Perron.

The bottom line is Perron has been a 40-50 point player in his career with concussion problems and you want to trade our best prospect for him. It's pathetic. Nash has been a 65-75 point player and this organization wouldn't trade Kreider for him. But why trust Gordie Clark and our scouts? Certainly a teenager knows more about Kreider than them.
Gordie Clark isn't a genius, he has picked many duds over his time with the Islanders. As a fan, I feel I can critique the draft pick if needed. It's not like he's Hakaan Andersson of the Red Wings to warrant immunity to criticism.

And to call Perron 'just a 40-50 pt player' is quite underselling him since he brings a lot more to the game than just point totals. You fail to mention that he has high end talent, a dominant puck possession game and natural playmaking instincts.

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07-11-2013, 01:04 PM
  #927
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He's been a pro longer than Kreider. Comparing their production is pointless. MPS is a solid defensive winger who has below average offensive tools. He's a mediocre passer and his shot is lousy. He's produced by either getting to the net without the puck, or using his speed to beat defenders so he can crash the net that way. I would certainly like to see Kreider do more of that, but Kreider's shot is far better than MPS' ability to pass or shoot. He's also bulkier, faster, and plays with more sandpaper when he's comfortable in his role.

Kreider really struggled this year, but he had massive expectations put upon him and that, combined with the constant shuffle between Hartford and NY, likely overwhelmed him. In his final stint in Hartford he looked excellent. He just needs to keep working at it.
okay but Kreider has never been big time producer at any level similar to Paajarvi, I don't see him topping out as 1rst line winger most fans are expecting. very few players with his lackluster college production end up becoming special players in the NHL, it's just a natural knack for putting up pts that Kreider for the most part has lacked in. I see his game resembled MPS a lot as I followed both teams quite a bit, both players have no resemblance of offensive creativity. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of warning signs in his game that isn't to like imo to deem him as an elite prospect or pegging him into 1rst line role as many are this upcoming season. I feel Miller, Fast, Lindberg are better prospects for the Rangers, but I am much higher on those three than the rest.

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07-11-2013, 01:31 PM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
While I think Boyle is overpaid, I wouldnt call him expendable. The other 3 I couldnt care less about.

But Boyle can be a solid piece on the 4th line.
They are all expendable for a cap dump.

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07-11-2013, 01:34 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Because the Rangers literally couldn't add to the cap that Perron was carrying, they were that tight to it. Meanwhile in the Nash trade, the Rangers IIRC had around 12 million in cap space.



The only reason you listed to me why Kreider is better is because he weights more. Yeah, I'm not really convinced that his added 20 lbs is going to make him a better hockey player.

You do realize that at one point, Paajarvi was a top 10 prospect on this website?

Paajarvi is the same age as Kreider and had a far more impressive NHL resume from his rookie season. It can't be stated how disastrous Kreider's rookie stint was with the Rangers shot differential wise, that alone gives a lot of warning signs on his game.



Gordie Clark isn't a genius, he has picked many duds over his time with the Islanders. As a fan, I feel I can critique the draft pick if needed. It's not like he's Hakaan Andersson of the Red Wings to warrant immunity to criticism.

And to call Perron 'just a 40-50 pt player' is quite underselling him since he brings a lot more to the game than just point totals. You fail to mention that he has high end talent, a dominant puck possession game and natural playmaking instincts.
It can't be stated how dumb it is that you are constantly using this metric as an important piece of data. Who gives a ****? Shots come in all shapes and sizes and by itself mean absolutely nothing. A warning sign? No, not at all.

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07-11-2013, 01:37 PM
  #930
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True. But when they're ready, they go back in the lineup. So the other guys would not see "any extended/consistent time period" like BRB said.
They might both miss the first month of the season. That would be a pretty extended look whoever fills those spots, assuming they are rookies.

After that there is no guarantee those players are the ones that sit.

This is a good year to be a Rangers prospect looking to crack the lineup.

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07-11-2013, 01:44 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
It can't be stated how dumb it is that you are constantly using this metric as an important piece of data. Who gives a ****? Shots come in all shapes and sizes and by itself mean absolutely nothing. A warning sign? No, not at all.
This dumb metric is used by NHL teams all the time. Of course it's a warning sign when you're constantly outshot by a rate of 2:1 when you're on the ice. It gives a good picture on how the player is handling the opposition while on the ice.

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07-11-2013, 01:56 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
okay but Kreider has never been big time producer at any level similar to Paajarvi, I don't see him topping out as 1rst line winger most fans are expecting. very few players with his lackluster college production end up becoming special players in the NHL, it's just a natural knack for putting up pts that Kreider for the most part has lacked in. I see his game resembled MPS a lot as I followed both teams quite a bit, both players have no resemblance of offensive creativity. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of warning signs in his game that isn't to like imo to deem him as an elite prospect or pegging him into 1rst line role as many are this upcoming season. I feel Miller, Fast, Lindberg are better prospects for the Rangers, but I am much higher on those three than the rest.
YOU don't see it. However folks paid for their input do.

Kreider has never been a producer? He lead a National Champion in scoring the same year he turned pro and scored 5 goals in the playoffs when the Rangers went to the Conference Final.

And before that lead a Bronze Medal USA team in goals.

And before that lead a Gold Medal wining USA team in goals.

He had a tough rookie season at age 21 so let's ship him out!

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07-11-2013, 01:58 PM
  #933
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Originally Posted by puckrush View Post
YOU don't see it. However folks paid for their input do.

Kreider has never been a producer? He lead a National Champion in scoring the same year he turned pro and scored 5 goals in the playoffs when the Rangers went to the Conference Final.

And before that lead a Bronze Medal USA team in goals.

And before that lead a Gold Medal wining USA team in goals.

He had a tough rookie season at age 21 so let's ship him out!
Let alone under Torts.

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07-11-2013, 02:06 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by puckrush View Post
YOU don't see it. However folks paid for their input do.

Kreider has never been a producer? He lead a National Champion in scoring the same year he turned pro and scored 5 goals in the playoffs when the Rangers went to the Conference Final.
Team award. He was good in the playoffs. He was one of the more experienced players on the BC roster.

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And before that lead a Bronze Medal USA team in goals.

And before that lead a Gold Medal wining USA team in goals.
WJC tournaments are small sample size tournaments. Like I said, Paajarvi averaged same PPG as Kreider yet isn't as highly regarded for some reason.

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Let alone under Torts.
What did Torts do to stunt Kreider's development?

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07-11-2013, 02:13 PM
  #935
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
This dumb metric is used by NHL teams all the time. Of course it's a warning sign when you're constantly outshot by a rate of 2:1 when you're on the ice. It gives a good picture on how the player is handling the opposition while on the ice.
Kreider had the best Corsi rating on the team during the 11-12 playoffs when he was just allowed to go out there and play hockey. He found open ice and played with guys who could get him the puck. Once Torts got a hold of him and they tried to teach him the system is where those numbers went south. Kreider is most dangerous in open ice and on the rush. Dump and chase/cycling is just a waste of his skill. It also didn't help playing with Boyle/Pyatt most of the time who were both absolutely awful for the majority of the shortened season.

I think he will do much better under AV.

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07-11-2013, 02:17 PM
  #936
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Lol @ complaining about a single player's shot differential when the entire team got stuck in its own end for minutes at at time.

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07-11-2013, 02:19 PM
  #937
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okay but Kreider has never been big time producer at any level similar to Paajarvi, I don't see him topping out as 1rst line winger most fans are expecting. very few players with his lackluster college production end up becoming special players in the NHL, it's just a natural knack for putting up pts that Kreider for the most part has lacked in. I see his game resembled MPS a lot as I followed both teams quite a bit, both players have no resemblance of offensive creativity. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of warning signs in his game that isn't to like imo to deem him as an elite prospect or pegging him into 1rst line role as many are this upcoming season. I feel Miller, Fast, Lindberg are better prospects for the Rangers, but I am much higher on those three than the rest.
Sure, he's never put up huge numbers, but there are plenty of very good NHL players who put up average numbers in college. David Backes never topped 20 goals in college, and is a two-time 30 goal scorer. Patrick Sharp never scored more than 13 goals in college and is one of the best goal scorers in the league today. JvR was a #2 overall pick and didn't exactly set the world on fire at UNH.

Kreider has always been more than just a stat line. He's a huge kid who skates like the wind and has a laser of a shot. He went from dominating MA-Prep to playing against the best U20 kids in the world to playing against pro's in the WC all in one calendar year. That's insane. Nobody does that. His tool set is elite, and what he could potentially do with that tool set is what makes him an elite prospect. Whether or not he realizes that potential is another thing all together.

In my opinion, he's likely to end up as an elite complimentary forward. He can't be the best hockey mind on his line, but he has the speed, size and finishing ability to be a perfect compliment to a play maker like Stepan or Brassard.

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07-11-2013, 02:22 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Sure, he's never put up huge numbers, but there are plenty of very good NHL players who put up average numbers in college. David Backes never topped 20 goals in college, and is a two-time 30 goal scorer. Patrick Sharp never scored more than 13 goals in college and is one of the best goal scorers in the league today. JvR was a #2 overall pick and didn't exactly set the world on fire at UNH.

Kreider has always been more than just a stat line. He's a huge kid who skates like the wind and has a laser of a shot. He went from dominating MA-Prep to playing against the best U20 kids in the world to playing against pro's in the WC all in one calendar year. That's insane. Nobody does that. His tool set is elite, and what he could potentially do with that tool set is what makes him an elite prospect. Whether or not he realizes that potential is another thing all together.

In my opinion, he's likely to end up as an elite complimentary forward. He can't be the best hockey mind on his line, but he has the speed, size and finishing ability to be a perfect compliment to a play maker like Stepan or Brassard.
He is Erik Cole. That's who his game should be modeled after.

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07-11-2013, 02:39 PM
  #939
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07-11-2013, 02:55 PM
  #940
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Ilya Kovalchuk retired....................I just can't stop laughing.

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07-11-2013, 03:30 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
What did Torts do to stunt Kreider's development?
I can't tell if this is sarscasm or not?

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07-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #942
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07-11-2013, 03:53 PM
  #943
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What did Torts do to stunt Kreider's development?
Stuck him on the 4th line and gave him 3 minutes a game. Either play the kid, or give him top line minutes in the A. He was never given the time of day by Torts. One mistake, and he's on the 4th line.

How can you expect a 21 year old to learn from his mistakes and correct on them if he gets punished for every mistake and gets no chance to redeem himself? Either play the kid, or let him play in the AHL.

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07-11-2013, 04:10 PM
  #944
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Stuck him on the 4th line and gave him 3 minutes a game. Either play the kid, or give him top line minutes in the A. He was never given the time of day by Torts. One mistake, and he's on the 4th line.

How can you expect a 21 year old to learn from his mistakes and correct on them if he gets punished for every mistake and gets no chance to redeem himself? Either play the kid, or let him play in the AHL.
Not defending Torts' handling of Kreider, but I think the main reason he gave him such a short leash was due to the shortened season and the fact that we were on the brink of falling out of the playoff race for most of the season. Every game was magnified, we couldn't really afford to deal with growing pains. If it wasn't for the team sort of coming together and going on a good post-deadline run, we don't even make the playoffs. The double standard in the whole situation was the fact that Torts was willing to deal with Miller's gaffes for most of the year but treated Kreider like a yoyo.

I fully expect Kreider to be given every opportunity to earn a top 9 spot on this team next year. What he does with that opportunity is up to him. As others have mentioned, he undoubtebly has the tools to be a major contributor. We just have to wait and see what happens.

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07-11-2013, 05:00 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Because the Rangers literally couldn't add to the cap that Perron was carrying, they were that tight to it. Meanwhile in the Nash trade, the Rangers IIRC had around 12 million in cap space.



The only reason you listed to me why Kreider is better is because he weights more. Yeah, I'm not really convinced that his added 20 lbs is going to make him a better hockey player.

You do realize that at one point, Paajarvi was a top 10 prospect on this website?

Paajarvi is the same age as Kreider and had a far more impressive NHL resume from his rookie season. It can't be stated how disastrous Kreider's rookie stint was with the Rangers shot differential wise, that alone gives a lot of warning signs on his game.




Gordie Clark isn't a genius, he has picked many duds over his time with the Islanders. As a fan, I feel I can critique the draft pick if needed. It's not like he's Hakaan Andersson of the Red Wings to warrant immunity to criticism.

And to call Perron 'just a 40-50 pt player' is quite underselling him since he brings a lot more to the game than just point totals. You fail to mention that he has high end talent, a dominant puck possession game and natural playmaking instincts.
Wait, wait. Stop for a second. What are you not understanding? The cap hit and cap space is irrelevant. THE RANGERS REFUSED TO TRADE KREIDER FOR RICK NASH. They refused to include him in the the deal. Yet they would deal him for Perron? That's it. No and's if's or but's.

I don't care what Paajarvi's ranking on HF was. It is a ranking on a prospect website. That is no indication of how the player will play in his career. I guess we should then assume that any top 10 prospect is going to be a superstar in the NHL based on your theory. All you do Kershaw is look at rankings, you look at statistics. You don't make your judgements on actual play. How often have you seen Paajarvi play? I want an honest answer, not a BS one to just so you can support your love affair with certain players. How often did you see with your own eyes, Paajarvi play before he hit the NHL? I think I know what the answer will be. It is ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous, to bring up Paajarvi's "NHL resume" when he has played in by far more GP...but I guess you're ignoring that part because it deters your argument. I've seen Kreider play on multiple occasions. I watched him in person in college, followed him at the WJC's, and through the pros thus far. The kid has raw talent that compliments this roster nicely. You just don't get it. Your judgements are all based of stat sheets; the "what have you done for me lately" mentality. He is developing, but you are impatient so we should trade him.

And your big comparison is shot differential??? Are you that naive??? I guess so because if you weren't then you would understand that EDM's game is ALL OFFENSE. Their defense has been atrocious. Of course the shot differential favors Paajarvi. Look at the players on the EDM roster the last few seasons! Do you know what the word objectivity means Kershaw? Because I don;t think you do. Because an objective viewpoint would understand that Kreider had played for a defensive coach. His rookie season was after a lockout under a defensive coach. Put Kreider on that edmonton team. I would absolutely put money on it that he would have outshot and out scored Paajarvi this past season. EDM doesn't mind sitting through growing pains with younger players, they do it with 70% of their roster.

Who is calling Gordie Clark a genius? I didn't. I will say that he has been at the center of turning around this organization's farm system even with the mid to low 1st round picks he has had to work with. He had helped find gems in the middle rounds. So yeah, I give him a helluva lot more credit than you Kershaw.

And by the way, you completely contradict yourself with your last paragraph with Perron. So it's okay for you to use stat totals to label what Kreider is and what Paajarvi is but it is not ok to do the same with Perron? Why not? You can talk about all the things Perron brings to the table besides stats but none of us can do the same for Kreider? I can't call Perron a 40-50 player even though, based on what the STATS show, that is exactly what he has been. Kershaw, you are really digging yourself a hole here. You know what your problem is Kershaw, you fell into that trap that other did, you set high expectations for Kreider. If Kreider didn't go out and light up the scoresheet, which is exactly what happened because his game is still raw, he was going to be considered a mediocre prospect in your mind and you'd ship him out as soon as you can. I thank God everyday that someone with a Justin Bieber avatar is not running the New York Rangers organization.

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07-11-2013, 05:07 PM
  #946
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Kreider had more value during the Nash negotiations than he does now.

Other than that, I agree with you, RGY. Besides, Perron makes $3.8m and most of us are including Kreider's $1.3m in the season cap calculation. The Rangers would be able to clear up $2.5m in cap space if that's what they absolutely needed to do.

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07-11-2013, 05:12 PM
  #947
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Kreider had more value during the Nash negotiations than he does now.

Other than that, I agree with you, RGY. Besides, Perron makes $3.8m and most of us are including Kreider's $1.3m in the season cap calculation. The Rangers would be able to clear up $2.5m in cap space if that's what they absolutely needed to do.
Absolutely Tawnos. If you are a person outside this organization, say from STL, you may think Kreider's value has dropped, but not a ton. If any scout has done their homework they know it would be a steal to get Kreider back for Perron. The kid still has it. I firmly believe that even if Kreider's stock has dropped in the eyes of other organizations, it certainly hasn't dropped to Rangers upper management. They are high on this kid. Very high. They wouldn't have pushed to get him to leave BC even earlier. They wouldn't have sprung him into the 2012 playoffs with a #1 Eastern Conference team that almost won the President's Trophy if they didn't think so highly of him. He isn't going anywhere. You don't give up on a player who is 6'3" with the speed he has, the shot he has, and the physicality he can bring to the table. He showed it in that Boston series.

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07-11-2013, 05:18 PM
  #948
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Lol @ complaining about a single player's shot differential when the entire team got stuck in its own end for minutes at at time.
Uhh, Kreider's was significantly worse and the Rangers were a quality shot differential team last season.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...3&sit=5v5close

Look at the zone adjusted CF% and compare it to teammate when apart vs. on ice together.

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07-11-2013, 05:24 PM
  #949
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kreider's disastrous rookie season

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Originally Posted by Oh Thats Nashty View Post
Kreider had the best Corsi rating on the team during the 11-12 playoffs when he was just allowed to go out there and play hockey. He found open ice and played with guys who could get him the puck. Once Torts got a hold of him and they tried to teach him the system is where those numbers went south. Kreider is most dangerous in open ice and on the rush. Dump and chase/cycling is just a waste of his skill. It also didn't help playing with Boyle/Pyatt most of the time who were both absolutely awful for the majority of the shortened season.

I think he will do much better under AV.
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Originally Posted by Frolic and DeTorts View Post
I can't tell if this is sarscasm or not?
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Originally Posted by Clowes Line View Post
Stuck him on the 4th line and gave him 3 minutes a game. Either play the kid, or give him top line minutes in the A. He was never given the time of day by Torts. One mistake, and he's on the 4th line.

How can you expect a 21 year old to learn from his mistakes and correct on them if he gets punished for every mistake and gets no chance to redeem himself? Either play the kid, or let him play in the AHL.
Torts by no means put Krieder is a position to fail this season, in fact, he was a very sheltered player that still got abused out there on ES.
Quote:
Interestingly, Tortorella doesn’t appear to be making that mistake. Chris Kreider, this season, has a Corsi (adjusted to be relative of his teammates) of -17.1, second worst only to Darroll Powe (-20.1). Powe, however, is a grinder, who takes the vast majority of his draws in the defensive zone (35.8%). By percentage, Tortorella deploys Powe in the defensive zone more than any other Ranger forward. He is thus expected to have a low Corsi number, since he’s basically skating uphill.

Kreider, by contrast, leads the Rangers in O-Zone start percentage. His 64.6% ties Brad Richards, who gets a bulk of offensive zone starts to facilitate his playmaking. Put another way: Chris Kreider has floundered this season, despite being babied by Tortorella with very soft minutes.
http://snyrangersblog.com/rangers/di...der-this-year/

Torts uses advanced stats according to interview with Mike Gillis IIRC and will continue to deploy it in Vancouver.

Kreider was a very bad player this year, really bad. In fact, one of the worst players on the team.


Last edited by Kershaw: 07-11-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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07-11-2013, 05:26 PM
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