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Free Agent Friend-Z Part III - Moore please?

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Old
07-11-2013, 05:27 PM
  #951
RGY
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Torts by no means put Krieder is a position to fail this season, in fact, he was a very sheltered player that still got abused out there on ES.


http://snyrangersblog.com/rangers/di...der-this-year/

Torts uses advanced stats according to interview with Mike Gillis IIRC and will continue to deploy it in Vancouver.

Kreider was a very bad player this year, really bad. In fact, one of the worst players on the team.
22 year old kid in his first pro season which was a shortened one. Let's give up on him. Not to mention, regardless of stats he did not play with quality players for a majority of the NHL games he played in. But hey Sabremetrics is God now. Let's ignore the human side of things.

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07-11-2013, 05:30 PM
  #952
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Sure, he's never put up huge numbers, but there are plenty of very good NHL players who put up average numbers in college. David Backes never topped 20 goals in college, and is a two-time 30 goal scorer. Patrick Sharp never scored more than 13 goals in college and is one of the best goal scorers in the league today. JvR was a #2 overall pick and didn't exactly set the world on fire at UNH.

Kreider has always been more than just a stat line. He's a huge kid who skates like the wind and has a laser of a shot. He went from dominating MA-Prep to playing against the best U20 kids in the world to playing against pro's in the WC all in one calendar year. That's insane. Nobody does that. His tool set is elite, and what he could potentially do with that tool set is what makes him an elite prospect. Whether or not he realizes that potential is another thing all together.

In my opinion, he's likely to end up as an elite complimentary forward. He can't be the best hockey mind on his line, but he has the speed, size and finishing ability to be a perfect compliment to a play maker like Stepan or Brassard.
you mention Backes goal totals, but didn't mention that he was PPG player in college for multiple seasons. I guess he can fill out as a Sharp type, but that type of player is very rare and Kreider plays nothing like him. Sharp has been very fortunate that he's been attached alongside Patrick Kane in his trade to Chicago.

Yes, I do agree that Kreider has elite hockey tools. Great shoot, excellent speed, but I still stand by my point that he lacks the true vision for the game, a scoring touch and natural chance-creators to accomplish big things in this league. I liked the comparison of David Booth, he scored 30g before but is very flawed player who plays tunnel vision hockey. I see Kreider realistically becoming that type of player, which isn't the end of the world, I just can't acclaim him as a top end prospect, even #1 prospect on the Rangers.

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07-11-2013, 05:48 PM
  #953
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Wait, wait. Stop for a second. What are you not understanding? The cap hit and cap space is irrelevant. THE RANGERS REFUSED TO TRADE KREIDER FOR RICK NASH. They refused to include him in the the deal. Yet they would deal him for Perron? That's it. No and's if's or but's.
How is cap hit and cap space irrelevant? It absolutely is relevant in a cap structured league where you can only spend a certain amount on the cap. I can't comprehend this analogy since the Nash trade is irrelevant to this topic.

Kreider's value then and Kreider's value now isn't the same. We've seen many franchises over the years make blunders in trade decisions. Remember when the Rangers under Glen Sather had the option of picking between Balej and Plekanec in a trade for Alexei Kovalev and they chose Balej? Yeah.....

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I don't care what Paajarvi's ranking on HF was. It is a ranking on a prospect website. That is no indication of how the player will play in his career. I guess we should then assume that any top 10 prospect is going to be a superstar in the NHL based on your theory. All you do Kershaw is look at rankings, you look at statistics. You don't make your judgements on actual play. How often have you seen Paajarvi play? I want an honest answer, not a BS one to just so you can support your love affair with certain players. How often did you see with your own eyes, Paajarvi play before he hit the NHL? I think I know what the answer will be. It is ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous, to bring up Paajarvi's "NHL resume" when he has played in by far more GP...but I guess you're ignoring that part because it deters your argument. I've seen Kreider play on multiple occasions. I watched him in person in college, followed him at the WJC's, and through the pros thus far. The kid has raw talent that compliments this roster nicely. You just don't get it. Your judgements are all based of stat sheets; the "what have you done for me lately" mentality. He is developing, but you are impatient so we should trade him.
I'll have you know that I watch both players quite frequently. I watch 99% of Rangers games every season and I watch many Oilers games over the past 3 seasons as well. I've also watched many of their pre-NHL games too, I watched Kreider in Beanpot tournament, I watched both on WJCs and some parts of WCs.

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And your big comparison is shot differential??? Are you that naive??? I guess so because if you weren't then you would understand that EDM's game is ALL OFFENSE. Their defense has been atrocious. Of course the shot differential favors Paajarvi. Look at the players on the EDM roster the last few seasons! Do you know what the word objectivity means Kershaw? Because I don;t think you do. Because an objective viewpoint would understand that Kreider had played for a defensive coach. His rookie season was after a lockout under a defensive coach. Put Kreider on that edmonton team. I would absolutely put money on it that he would have outshot and out scored Paajarvi this past season. EDM doesn't mind sitting through growing pains with younger players, they do it with 70% of their roster.

lol, the Oilers are a terrible team because they constantly rank amongst the worst NHL franchises in shot differential, year-in, year-out. The Rangers on the other hand are a top quality shot differential team, so I'm not sure how your concept of an all out offensive team will have better shot differential. The St. Louis Blues, a top defensive team in hockey GAA wise ranks amongst the top in shot differential rankings.

Read the article here and how it debunks the theory that Chris Kreider was mishandled. We've seen good players like Callahan, Anisimov, Stepan, Dubinsky, etc flourish in this system under John Tortorella, so I do believe he knows a thing or two about dealing with young forwards. Perhaps Kreider is not as good as you envision him to be.

http://snyrangersblog.com/rangers/di...der-this-year/

Quote:
Who is calling Gordie Clark a genius? I didn't. I will say that he has been at the center of turning around this organization's farm system even with the mid to low 1st round picks he has had to work with. He had helped find gems in the middle rounds. So yeah, I give him a helluva lot more credit than you Kershaw.
Okay that's fine. As a fan, I feel I am allowed to critique the scouts, just as you and many others critique the coaches.

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And by the way, you completely contradict yourself with your last paragraph with Perron. So it's okay for you to use stat totals to label what Kreider is and what Paajarvi is but it is not ok to do the same with Perron? Why not? You can talk about all the things Perron brings to the table besides stats but none of us can do the same for Kreider? I can't call Perron a 40-50 player even though, based on what the STATS show, that is exactly what he has been.
How exactly am I contradicting myself?

MPS and Perron are better puck possession players than Kreider is, they're better defensive players and better overall when they're not scoring. Kreider on the other hand has a team worst (sans Powe) shot differential rating on this team, this is the epitome of being a liability when not scoring. You on the other hand, are categorizing Perron strictly on points.

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Kershaw, you are really digging yourself a hole here. You know what your problem is Kershaw, you fell into that trap that other did, you set high expectations for Kreider. If Kreider didn't go out and light up the scoresheet, which is exactly what happened because his game is still raw, he was going to be considered a mediocre prospect in your mind and you'd ship him out as soon as you can. I thank God everyday that someone with a Justin Bieber avatar is not running the New York Rangers organization.
As opposed to the man who said this?

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"If I had the Rangers payroll, I'd never lose a game"
That followed by 1 appearance past the 2nd round in 13 years with one of the highest budget teams in the league?

http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2010/...-greatest-hits

Fair enough.

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07-11-2013, 05:49 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
22 year old kid in his first pro season which was a shortened one. Let's give up on him. Not to mention, regardless of stats he did not play with quality players for a majority of the NHL games he played in. But hey Sabremetrics is God now. Let's ignore the human side of things.
no one is giving up on him, but it seems you're not allowed to point at his flaws last season.

Kreider has a lot of work to do to be considered a legitimate NHL player, let alone a top liner.

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07-11-2013, 05:59 PM
  #955
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To be fair to Kreider, when he wasn't with the likes of boyle, Asham, abysmal Richards, etc he was much better with Stepan, Nash, cally etc albeit a small sample size.

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07-11-2013, 06:04 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
To be fair to Kreider, when he wasn't with the likes of boyle, Asham, abysmal Richards, etc he was much better with Stepan, Nash, cally etc albeit a small sample size.
And it was his rookie season, too. I'm sure he'll be a better player with the needed development time.

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07-11-2013, 06:15 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
To be fair to Kreider, when he wasn't with the likes of boyle, Asham, abysmal Richards, etc he was much better with Stepan, Nash, cally etc albeit a small sample size.
except he dragged the play of his linemates when he was on the ice with them.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...3&sit=5v5close

the play of Asham, Nebury, Miller(slightly), Powe and Hamrlik improved when he was put on their line with CF% when put with Krieder, everyone else's dropped. So it makes sense that Torts put him with linemates he played best with.

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07-11-2013, 06:27 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Torts by no means put Krieder is a position to fail this season, in fact, he was a very sheltered player that still got abused out there on ES.


http://snyrangersblog.com/rangers/di...der-this-year/

Torts uses advanced stats according to interview with Mike Gillis IIRC and will continue to deploy it in Vancouver.

Kreider was a very bad player this year, really bad. In fact, one of the worst players on the team.
Kershaw, I agree with you about many things, but not this.

Could Kreider have played better? Yes.
But that is not the correct measuring stick. We need to look at WHY.

Torts got into this kid's head.
Torts the son of a ***** ego friggin maniac who had to be so friggin authoritarian, whether it was called for or not, that he was gonna play God and make everyone else bend, buckle and break before him, and do things his way, THAT Torts got to Kreider.

I'm not sure, I don't think he actually scared him.
But he made it clear that he Torts held his immediate future in the coach's hands.
Even with trying to comply, and going for path of least resistance to such trouble, disaster could not be avoided.

As a result Kreider thought too much about doing something, and was afraid to make mistakes.

Of course, someone forced into such constraints is not gonna excel.

What a waste of an exceptional talent's 2yr ELC, which is unfortunate given we burned his entire first one in the prior year's playoffs.

My anger for Torts is exceeded only by my hatred for Cat Francis unnecessarily trading Park AND Ratelle on what appear to be similarly driven ego-centric grounds, ruining that team.

So it is not fair to grade CK accurately without allowing for some decontamination of this poisoned pool.

----------------------

In the interests of unity of my Ranger brothers,
I hereby personally offer to take the yoke of Kreider's success for next year -- BARRING INJURY -- on my shoulders. Personally.

We have legit angles to consider about the team.
Quibbling constantly over Kreider is not productive.

I was first and foremost as to CK.
I accurately tagged him a Dave Keon, with outside chance of Pavel Bure if he develops a shot.

These projections have been screwed with by Torts as illustrated, who thankfully now is buh bye.

Again, injury is an X factor none of us controls and should suffer for; that said, barring injury, with Torts gone, and a good replacement, I go on record that KREIDER WILL SUCCEED.

Obviously, that is a relative term.
If he is playing with certain players he will do better than with others.

But and however, by any reasonable, relative measure of the yardstick, I predict he will succeed.

Brothers (and to extent applicable, sisters), let us conserve our energy and apply it to useful trade scenarios that help us with the issues at hand.

I will go out on a limb about Kreider for this season.

If he busts, then you can all do all the : p: and worse you want.

Remember though, when he looks so good by end of this season, I get to
etc.

Deal?

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07-11-2013, 06:28 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
except he dragged the play of his linemates when he was on the ice with them.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...3&sit=5v5close

the play of Asham, Nebury, Miller(slightly), Powe and Hamrlik improved when he was put on their line with CF% when put with Krieder, everyone else's dropped. So it makes sense that Torts put him with linemates he played best with.
I dont care or buy into the sabremetrics crap, never have never will. For instance, in baseball, those "advanced stats" claim that Derek Jeter is not better than just your regular everyday short stop. never have cared for stats like those, I'd rather watch the play,Nash and Kreider and Stepan all played quite well in their limited time that I watched them.

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07-11-2013, 06:33 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
He is Erik Cole. That's who his game should be modeled after.
Not unfair, basically.
But Kreider will be better. Watch and see.

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07-11-2013, 06:49 PM
  #961
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you mention Backes goal totals, but didn't mention that he was PPG player in college for multiple seasons. I guess he can fill out as a Sharp type, but that type of player is very rare and Kreider plays nothing like him. Sharp has been very fortunate that he's been attached alongside Patrick Kane in his trade to Chicago.

Yes, I do agree that Kreider has elite hockey tools. Great shoot, excellent speed, but I still stand by my point that he lacks the true vision for the game, a scoring touch and natural chance-creators to accomplish big things in this league. I liked the comparison of David Booth, he scored 30g before but is very flawed player who plays tunnel vision hockey. I see Kreider realistically becoming that type of player, which isn't the end of the world, I just can't acclaim him as a top end prospect, even #1 prospect on the Rangers.
It has nothing to do with whether or not Kreider will become a Backes or a Sharp, it's simply to illustrate that not all NHLers who come through the NCAA were mega-producers. I'm not projecting Kreider to be an "anyone"-type. Every player on Chicago's roster has been fortunate that Kane was there. To imply that Sharp isn't a stellar player in his own right because of Kane is just downright ridiculous.

I've never once bought into the idea that Kreider has tunnel vision. Is he an elite play maker? No, but he has solid vision for the wing position. Booth is not a "flawed" player. He's simply a kid who had his career set back by concussions thanks to an incredibly dirty hit. That wasn't a result of tunnel vision. It was a result of a blatant headshot on an unsuspecting player.

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07-11-2013, 07:33 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Uhh, Kreider's was significantly worse and the Rangers were a quality shot differential team last season.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...3&sit=5v5close

Look at the zone adjusted CF% and compare it to teammate when apart vs. on ice together.
Is that all shots or just shots on net? I'm pretty sure we've been watching a team with a shot blocking addiction the last few seasons...

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07-11-2013, 08:02 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I dont care or buy into the sabremetrics crap, never have never will. For instance, in baseball, those "advanced stats" claim that Derek Jeter is not better than just your regular everyday short stop. never have cared for stats like those, I'd rather watch the play,Nash and Kreider and Stepan all played quite well in their limited time that I watched them.
Really bad example as Derek Jeter actually is very poor defensively.

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07-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #964
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Advanced stats show Jeter is a tremendous and HOF worthy hitter. His fielding is very poor and always has been despite what Sportscenter may have told you.

On the other hand, there are yet to be a measure of advanced statistics that have proven as reliable indicators to judge youth and their projected development. I understand that Kreider has not progressed at the rapid pace that some were hopeful for but there is no reason to berate or lower the expectation that he can turn into a very qualified top 6 player.

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07-11-2013, 08:53 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Kershaw, I agree with you about many things, but not this.

Could Kreider have played better? Yes.
But that is not the correct measuring stick. We need to look at WHY.

Torts got into this kid's head.
Torts the son of a ***** ego friggin maniac who had to be so friggin authoritarian, whether it was called for or not, that he was gonna play God and make everyone else bend, buckle and break before him, and do things his way, THAT Torts got to Kreider.

I'm not sure, I don't think he actually scared him.
But he made it clear that he Torts held his immediate future in the coach's hands.
Even with trying to comply, and going for path of least resistance to such trouble, disaster could not be avoided.

As a result Kreider thought too much about doing something, and was afraid to make mistakes.

Of course, someone forced into such constraints is not gonna excel.

What a waste of an exceptional talent's 2yr ELC, which is unfortunate given we burned his entire first one in the prior year's playoffs.

My anger for Torts is exceeded only by my hatred for Cat Francis unnecessarily trading Park AND Ratelle on what appear to be similarly driven ego-centric grounds, ruining that team.

So it is not fair to grade CK accurately without allowing for some decontamination of this poisoned pool.

----------------------

In the interests of unity of my Ranger brothers,
I hereby personally offer to take the yoke of Kreider's success for next year -- BARRING INJURY -- on my shoulders. Personally.

We have legit angles to consider about the team.
Quibbling constantly over Kreider is not productive.

I was first and foremost as to CK.
I accurately tagged him a Dave Keon, with outside chance of Pavel Bure if he develops a shot.

These projections have been screwed with by Torts as illustrated, who thankfully now is buh bye.

Again, injury is an X factor none of us controls and should suffer for; that said, barring injury, with Torts gone, and a good replacement, I go on record that KREIDER WILL SUCCEED.

Obviously, that is a relative term.
If he is playing with certain players he will do better than with others.

But and however, by any reasonable, relative measure of the yardstick, I predict he will succeed.

Brothers (and to extent applicable, sisters), let us conserve our energy and apply it to useful trade scenarios that help us with the issues at hand.

I will go out on a limb about Kreider for this season.

If he busts, then you can all do all the : p: and worse you want.

Remember though, when he looks so good by end of this season, I get to
etc.

Deal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
It has nothing to do with whether or not Kreider will become a Backes or a Sharp, it's simply to illustrate that not all NHLers who come through the NCAA were mega-producers. I'm not projecting Kreider to be an "anyone"-type. Every player on Chicago's roster has been fortunate that Kane was there. To imply that Sharp isn't a stellar player in his own right because of Kane is just downright ridiculous.

I've never once bought into the idea that Kreider has tunnel vision. Is he an elite play maker? No, but he has solid vision for the wing position. Booth is not a "flawed" player. He's simply a kid who had his career set back by concussions thanks to an incredibly dirty hit. That wasn't a result of tunnel vision. It was a result of a blatant headshot on an unsuspecting player.
for the Rangers sake, I hope he becomes the great player you guys are pegging as, however consider me as very skeptical on his upside and style of play. Just not a fan. Hope I'm wrong.

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07-11-2013, 08:55 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Really bad example as Derek Jeter actually is very poor defensively.
Now he is yes, in his prime no way and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts

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07-11-2013, 08:56 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I dont care or buy into the sabremetrics crap, never have never will. For instance, in baseball, those "advanced stats" claim that Derek Jeter is not better than just your regular everyday short stop. never have cared for stats like those, I'd rather watch the play,Nash and Kreider and Stepan all played quite well in their limited time that I watched them.
Jeter is a terrible defender and he's my favorite Yankee of all time. Zero range.

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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
Really bad example as Derek Jeter actually is very poor defensively.
This
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alluckks View Post
Advanced stats show Jeter is a tremendous and HOF worthy hitter. His fielding is very poor and always has been despite what Sportscenter may have told you.

On the other hand, there are yet to be a measure of advanced statistics that have proven as reliable indicators to judge youth and their projected development. I understand that Kreider has not progressed at the rapid pace that some were hopeful for but there is no reason to berate or lower the expectation that he can turn into a very qualified top 6 player.
Perhaps it doesn't tell to judge development, but it does tell how a player plays in a given stretch of games in a season.

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07-11-2013, 10:20 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Now he is yes, in his prime no way and anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts
I don't want to switch the conversation to baseball but throughout his whole career he has been bad defensively. It just is not noticed because the skills he is good at are the obvious ones and his huge weaknesses are less offense. That being he is sure handed and throws well (things you can easily see while he is playing) but his range is extremely limited and that's not something that is easily noticed since it's just shown as more balls through the hole or up the middle but not so much as him misplaying a ball or making an error.

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07-11-2013, 10:30 PM
  #969
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Why are we talking Derek Jeter and baseball?

Anyway, I'd imagine we're going to war with what we have once Stepan and Zucc are signed. I honestly don't see any trades going down (thanks Richards!)

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Kreider-Richards-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Miller/Zucc/Lindberg/Fast/Kristo
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Del Zotto
Moore-Stralman

Is a team that when healthy can and will contend. Staying healthy and a little luck with a more open offensive system should at least get us to top 6 in the east and conference semis again. Otherwise the season is a disappointment, IMO.

Hey, at least we aren't the Devils. A top 6 of Ryder, Clowe, Zajac, Elias, Henrique, and Zubrus looks disgusting.

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07-11-2013, 10:58 PM
  #970
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Originally Posted by I Eat Crow View Post
Why are we talking Derek Jeter and baseball?

Anyway, I'd imagine we're going to war with what we have once Stepan and Zucc are signed. I honestly don't see any trades going down (thanks Richards!)

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Kreider-Richards-Callahan
Pouliot-Brassard-Miller/Zucc/Lindberg/Fast/Kristo
Boyle-Moore-Dorsett

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Del Zotto
Moore-Stralman

Is a team that when healthy can and will contend. Staying healthy and a little luck with a more open offensive system should at least get us to top 6 in the east and conference semis again. Otherwise the season is a disappointment, IMO.

Hey, at least we aren't the Devils. A top 6 of Ryder, Clowe, Zajac, Elias, Henrique, and Zubrus looks disgusting.
I've seen Jeter make so many ridiculously good highlight reel plays, some of them in the biggest moments of the game (Red Sox game in 2004, the 2001 ALDS, etc, and he makes the jump throw and the over the shoulder catch look so easy compared to anyone else I've gotten to see play short stop). Thats the end I will talk about this discussion, just had to get it out..

and back on topic... I feel the Rangers are gonna see what they have and then maybe around the TDL if they feel they are a legit contender, make a move for another scorer.

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07-11-2013, 11:03 PM
  #971
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The reason he has to make the jump throw is because he doesn't have the range of other shortstops and can't get in front of it and make it look easy. And of course you've seen him make good plays, every shortstop makes good plays. His miscues re less noticeable than someone else with greater range since greater range leads to more throwing errors since they have more opportunities.

I think we are better this year with Richards than if we bought him out though. The FA class this year was very weak so I wouldn't want to waste money on pretty much any of those guys. And buying him out wouldn't make a huge difference regards to trades anyway since we can always still get rid of the contracts of guys like boyle, powe, asham, pyatt, not use miller etc..Though longterm I definitely think it would have been best if he were bought out this year.

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07-11-2013, 11:23 PM
  #972
Lundsanity30
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Stepan easily could make the argument he is worth around $4 million off of the last two seasons in which his 95 points (35-60) rank 17th among NHL centers—and third behind Steven Stamkos and John Tavares of those 23 or younger— but without the leverage that comes with arbitration, it is hard to believe he will be able to command close to that number.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...ontent=Rangers

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07-12-2013, 12:35 AM
  #973
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forgot who wanted him... but..

per Aaron Portzline
Quote:
#CBJ have not stated it so bluntly, but seems unlikely - at this point - that RW Vinny Prospal will be back next season.
Quote:
Reached via email, Prospal declined to comment beyond saying he didn't know what to say.
Quote:
Club's position makes sense. Lots of guys pushing for more ice time, not a lot of cushion under the salary cap if Prospal makes his $2M.
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At this point, Prospal is the only #NHL player who led his team in scoring last year AND isn't under contract to return.

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07-12-2013, 01:17 AM
  #974
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
forgot who wanted him... but..

per Aaron Portzline
Quote:
#CBJ have not stated it so bluntly, but seems unlikely - at this point - that RW Vinny Prospal will be back next season.
Quote:
Reached via email, Prospal declined to comment beyond saying he didn't know what to say.
Quote:
Club's position makes sense. Lots of guys pushing for more ice time, not a lot of cushion under the salary cap if Prospal makes his $2M.
Quote:
At this point, Prospal is the only #NHL player who led his team in scoring last year AND isn't under contract to return.
that would be me. I thought Prospal would've made a ton of more sense than Pouliot. Neither are long term solutions, but Prospal is a much better player.

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07-12-2013, 01:19 AM
  #975
Lundsanity30
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
that would be me. I thought Prospal would've made a ton of more sense than Pouliot. Neither are long term solutions, but Prospal is a much better player.
We could only afford him if we moved Pyatt now IMO and didn't sign Zucc (though I think thats a given now with arb isnt it?)

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