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Old
07-11-2013, 03:43 PM
  #126
hockeyfreak7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Put Laughton in Couturier's place last year with the defensive zone starts and faceoffs he had and the linemates Couturier had, and I'd bet Laughton doesn't crack 10 points, and might have had half of Couturier's total, 7 or 8 points. He had no points in 5 games. Put Sean Couturier in Laughton's place last year, and I'd bet you that Couturier averages over 2 points per game in juniors. He averaged 1.66 two years ago, so it would be completely reasonable that after two years he could average 2 points per game. Laughton averaged 1.14 last year. Laughton averaged .828 in his draft year, Couturier averaged DOUBLE that in his draft year.

Schenn put up .55PPG last year in just his second season in the NHL, which is a 45 point season over 82 games. That's perfectly good for a guy in his second NHL season.

Laughton certainly has a toolbox, he's going to be a useful NHL player one day. The thing is, he doesn't have nearly the number of tools to put into it that Couturier and Schenn have.
To continue with the tools/toolbox analogy, Couturier and Schenn were dominant at juniors because they had had so many of those "tools". At the NHL level, offensive production is equally about the toolbox as it is about the tools.

I don't see Schenn's toolbox. He had the tools to dominate at juniors, but I don't think he's ever going to put it all together at the NHL level. And conversely, while Laughton doesn't have the tools (to dominate at any level offensively), he will compensate because of his instincts and hockey sense.

So basically, comparing junior points and projections with these players is foolish. Like I always say around here, if you could project a player's NHL effectiveness from their junior accolades, everyone would be a scout.

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07-11-2013, 03:46 PM
  #127
BrimFullofAsham45
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
50 point rookie seasons since 05-06:

RNH
Landeskog
Henrique
Skinner
Couture
Grabner(23 year old rookie)
Duchene
Tavares
Ryan
Versteeg(22 year old rookie)
Kane
Backstrom
Toews
Mueller
Malkin
Stastny
Kopitar
Wolski
Ovechkin
Crosby
Boyes
J. Jokinen
Svatos

Other than a couple of surprises in there(Henrique, Grabner, Mueller, Wolski, Svatos), I don't see how Laughton fits into that group. Henrique is the only real guy that I think compares to Laughton as a guy that projects as a two-way player. The other guys are mostly all-offense players. It could happen, but personally I'd be shocked.
Some solid archiving here, but most high draft picks won't have the advantage of playing for a team with an offense that has the capacity to be as dynamic as the Flyers'.

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Old
07-11-2013, 03:46 PM
  #128
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Like I said, I think Laughton puts up Bergeron type numbers going forward. Bergeron had 39 points his rookie year and I don't think that would be out of the question for Laughton to reach. He's going to be playing on a good line with good players and his offensive game translates better at the NHL level than the OHL level. Add in to the fact that he's got a fantastic defensive game and he possesses exceptional hockey IQ, he'll translate just fine at the NHL level.

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07-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
We can talk stats all day, but the bottom line is Schenn was not exactly making the Flyers a better team last year. Schenn will not be a center on this team long term, and we haven't seen that he can be effective on the wing yet. Honestly, I think playing for Terry Murray screwed both Schenn and Couturier up a little bit.


You're right, our 5th leading scorer(and tied for 4th best at ES) definitely wasn't making us a better team last year.

Quote:
We've seen many skilled players who tore up the CHL become mediocre players in the NHL. Schenn has not had a seamless transition to the pros, and seeing how Laughton is on the cusp of making an NHL team a year after his draft, where Schenn was not is pretty indicative of what each can bring to the table. I wouldn't be surprised to see Laughton pass Schenn on the depth chart on will alone.
I really think people's expectations for Schenn to come in and produce immediately were too lofty. It would have been great if he could come in immediately and produce, but it just takes time for a lot of guys. At the age Couturier is right now, Claude Giroux had played two emergency games in the NHL that he never should have played, but he did because our cap was so messed up. It takes time. Couturier already played his way onto an NHL roster that was very deep in forwards, and shut down one of the best players in the NHL at ES in the playoffs. In those same playoffs, we saw a glimpse of what Brayden Schenn could do. He was fast, physical, and put up 9 points in 11 games. Andrew Shaw has the 5th most games played in his draft year and cracked a very deep NHL roster and has more games played than Ryan Strome, so Shaw>Strome right?

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07-11-2013, 04:12 PM
  #130
BrimFullofAsham45
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post


You're right, our 5th leading scorer(and tied for 4th best at ES) definitely wasn't making us a better team last year.



I really think people's expectations for Schenn to come in and produce immediately were too lofty. It would have been great if he could come in immediately and produce, but it just takes time for a lot of guys. At the age Couturier is right now, Claude Giroux had played two emergency games in the NHL that he never should have played, but he did because our cap was so messed up. It takes time. Couturier already played his way onto an NHL roster that was very deep in forwards, and shut down one of the best players in the NHL at ES in the playoffs. In those same playoffs, we saw a glimpse of what Brayden Schenn could do. He was fast, physical, and put up 9 points in 11 games. Andrew Shaw has the 5th most games played in his draft year and cracked a very deep NHL roster and has more games played than Ryan Strome, so Shaw>Strome right?
The Flyers were a bad 5-on-5 team last year. Schenn, and his 2nd PP unit, also sucked.

We can pat Schenn on the back all we want, but he didn't see any postseason play this year. Can't lay the blame on him but you can't rationally claim he was part of the solution last season. His time to blossom is ticking.

I know nothing about Strome, so I can't comment on him, but I know that Shaw has a cup ring. Will Schenn ever? This is a question I will long be anxious to see answered.

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07-11-2013, 04:43 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
The Flyers were a bad 5-on-5 team last year. Schenn, and his 2nd PP unit, also sucked.

We can pat Schenn on the back all we want, but he didn't see any postseason play this year. Can't lay the blame on him but you can't rationally claim he was part of the solution last season. His time to blossom is ticking.
My point was that Schenn's offense was not extremely reliant on the PP like Hartnell or Simmonds' was. The fact that he was helping create offense at ES as opposed to just finishing off the pretty plays that Giroux and Voracek made on the PP is definitely significant and a good sign. Giroux didn't see any postseason time last year, so he wasn't part of the solution?

Quote:
I know nothing about Strome, so I can't comment on him, but I know that Shaw has a cup ring. Will Schenn ever? This is a question I will long be anxious to see answered.
My point is that the fact that Laughton got a 5 game trial and then might be able to make the team this year does not mean he's going to be an incredible player. Plenty of guys have a lot of cup rings, and it's near the bottom in determining the quality of a player.

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07-11-2013, 05:28 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post


You're right, our 5th leading scorer(and tied for 4th best at ES) definitely wasn't making us a better team last year.



I really think people's expectations for Schenn to come in and produce immediately were too lofty. It would have been great if he could come in immediately and produce, but it just takes time for a lot of guys. At the age Couturier is right now, Claude Giroux had played two emergency games in the NHL that he never should have played, but he did because our cap was so messed up. It takes time. Couturier already played his way onto an NHL roster that was very deep in forwards, and shut down one of the best players in the NHL at ES in the playoffs. In those same playoffs, we saw a glimpse of what Brayden Schenn could do. He was fast, physical, and put up 9 points in 11 games. Andrew Shaw has the 5th most games played in his draft year and cracked a very deep NHL roster and has more games played than Ryan Strome, so Shaw>Strome right?

Brayden Schenn will be a force this coming season. He really came on at the end and played extremely well, and as you say, he was one of our better players in the playoffs the year before as a rookie.

This year I think part of his problem was that they stuck him on a line with Briere, so he had to do all the backchecking and hitting himself, since Danny could not and would not do either.

Put Schenn with Vinnie and Simmonds or Giroux and Voracek and we'll see him dominate. He's strong and hits a ton, is a strong if not overly fast skater, and has great hands and vision. He's still only a kid, everyone needs to relax.

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07-11-2013, 06:18 PM
  #133
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Briere killed the lines he was on.

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Old
07-11-2013, 06:24 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Brayden Schenn will be a force this coming season. He really came on at the end and played extremely well, and as you say, he was one of our better players in the playoffs the year before as a rookie.

This year I think part of his problem was that they stuck him on a line with Briere, so he had to do all the backchecking and hitting himself, since Danny could not and would not do either.

Put Schenn with Vinnie and Simmonds or Giroux and Voracek and we'll see him dominate. He's strong and hits a ton, is a strong if not overly fast skater, and has great hands and vision. He's still only a kid, everyone needs to relax.
I'd love to see Schenn with G and Voracek. Him and Voracek could really open up a lot of room for Giroux.

Then put Hartnell with Vinny and Simmonds. Dominant puck possession line right there.

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Old
07-11-2013, 06:36 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
The Flyers were a bad 5-on-5 team last year. Schenn, and his 2nd PP unit, also sucked.

We can pat Schenn on the back all we want, but he didn't see any postseason play this year. Can't lay the blame on him but you can't rationally claim he was part of the solution last season. His time to blossom is ticking.

I know nothing about Strome, so I can't comment on him, but I know that Shaw has a cup ring. Will Schenn ever? This is a question I will long be anxious to see answered.
Yeah, a 21 year old who has only played a shade over 100 games in the NHL is running out of time.

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07-11-2013, 07:26 PM
  #136
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Some solid archiving here, but most high draft picks won't have the advantage of playing for a team with an offense that has the capacity to be as dynamic as the Flyers'.
Those guys also got PP time. Something Laughton won't get.

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07-11-2013, 10:21 PM
  #137
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This year...Laughton is not better than Gagne. Sign gagne for 1 year...let Laughton dominate in Jr and get the WJC experience. It will only help his future.

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Old
07-12-2013, 12:48 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
Briere killed the lines he was on.
I 100% agree.

Screw it...ive loved watching Gagne play and apreciate all that he has done for us, but Im really excited about the potential of Laughton and all that I've heard about him at the Dev camp...Really cant wait to the main camp to see who wins the battle between Laughton and Straka...if niether show up im fine with Gags

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07-12-2013, 01:13 AM
  #139
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Brayden Schenn will be a force this coming season. He really came on at the end and played extremely well, and as you say, he was one of our better players in the playoffs the year before as a rookie.

This year I think part of his problem was that they stuck him on a line with Briere, so he had to do all the backchecking and hitting himself, since Danny could not and would not do either.

Put Schenn with Vinnie and Simmonds or Giroux and Voracek and we'll see him dominate. He's strong and hits a ton, is a strong if not overly fast skater, and has great hands and vision. He's still only a kid, everyone needs to relax.
Sounds great to me.

B. Schenn brings the physical element and high hockey IQ to play alongside Girouxs wing.

A "2nd line" of Hartsy, Vinny and Simmer could be as deadly as painful to play against. Don't know about speed though.

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07-12-2013, 01:14 AM
  #140
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I 100% agree.

Screw it...ive loved watching Gagne play and apreciate all that he has done for us, but Im really excited about the potential of Laughton and all that I've heard about him at the Dev camp...Really cant wait to the main camp to see who wins the battle between Laughton and Straka...if niether show up im fine with Gags
I don't think Raffl should be counted out either. Amongst those three, I think it's possible, if not likely, for two of them to make the opening day roster. Rinaldo can sit out.

There are so many different possibilities with our depth up front. It's a little insane.

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07-12-2013, 01:20 AM
  #141
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Also, I want Read-Couturier-Voracek to get some time together. I remember that line being together briefly in Couturier's rookie year, and they looked great.

Hartnell-Giroux-Lecavalier
Read-Couturier-Voracek
Schenn-Laughton-Simmonds

That top nine would be insane. Reminds me of the 2010 post season top nine we rolled with except more balanced:

Gagne-Richards-Carter
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-Asham

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07-12-2013, 01:36 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Also, I want Read-Couturier-Voracek to get some time together. I remember that line being together briefly in Couturier's rookie year, and they looked great.

Hartnell-Giroux-Lecavalier
Read-Couturier-Voracek
Schenn-Laughton-Simmonds
If Laughton sticks I like these line combos. The 1st and 2nd line should be able to light the lamp. That 3rd line would be a real pain to play against. Schenn and Simmonds bash the crap out of people, add in Laughton that's the makings of a good energy line with a scoring touch. Danny really zapped the intensity of that line if I remember correctly, Schenn-Simmonds combo I mean. (http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A)

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07-12-2013, 03:56 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by BrimFullofAsham45 View Post
I know nothing about Strome, so I can't comment on him, but I know that Shaw has a cup ring. Will Schenn ever? This is a question I will long be anxious to see answered.
The whole "X has a cup ring and Y doesn't" argument is so unbelievably stupid. Being part of a team that won a stanley cup doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else. Talbot has a cup ring, does that mean he's better than Giroux?

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07-12-2013, 08:06 AM
  #144
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I don't think Raffl should be counted out either. Amongst those three, I think it's possible, if not likely, for two of them to make the opening day roster. Rinaldo can sit out.

They better have a hell of a preseason if you want Rinaldo out...he was awesome last year. There was a number somewhere with his hits per shift, would love to see that again.
Not exactly what I was looking for but:


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Zac Rinaldo has an astounding 32.04 hits per 60 minutes this season. #statnerd"

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07-12-2013, 08:09 AM
  #145
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To continue with the tools/toolbox analogy, Couturier and Schenn were dominant at juniors because they had had so many of those "tools". At the NHL level, offensive production is equally about the toolbox as it is about the tools.

I don't see Schenn's toolbox. He had the tools to dominate at juniors, but I don't think he's ever going to put it all together at the NHL level. And conversely, while Laughton doesn't have the tools (to dominate at any level offensively), he will compensate because of his instincts and hockey sense.

So basically, comparing junior points and projections with these players is foolish. Like I always say around here, if you could project a player's NHL effectiveness from their junior accolades, everyone would be a scout.

what are you saying... are you saying the toolbox is = to them not being smart enough??? physical??? what makes you an expert on a "toolbox" and what exactly are you saying the toolbox is?... that tool/toolbox analogy really doesn't hold water... so much more goes into a players success then that...grooming/coaching/linemates/workout/practice/desire/support/life away from rink/std's/drinking/injuries/health... they interview these players for a reason and sometimes move up/move down guys based on these interviews... i think brayden schenn is going to shock you... i love when fans write off young players and decide a player has the tools but no toolbox riggggggghhhhttt... took me about 2 minutes

21 years old... david krejci- 21 points in 62 games
21 years old... danny briere 22 points in 64 games
21 years old... mike richards 32 points in 59 games
21 years old... claude giroux 27 points in 42 games
21 years old... JVR 40 points in 75 games
21 years old... brayden schenn 26 points in 47 games

write him off


Last edited by potsiev2: 07-12-2013 at 08:18 AM.
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07-12-2013, 09:24 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Also, I want Read-Couturier-Voracek to get some time together. I remember that line being together briefly in Couturier's rookie year, and they looked great.

Hartnell-Giroux-Lecavalier
Read-Couturier-Voracek
Schenn-Laughton-Simmonds

That top nine would be insane.
Putting Couturier at second line center would be insane when you have just signed a true 2C with good faceoff skills.

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07-12-2013, 09:38 AM
  #147
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I know nothing about Strome, so I can't comment on him, but I know that Shaw has a cup ring. Will Schenn ever? This is a question I will long be anxious to see answered.[/QUOTE]

Dan Carcillo has a ring now too. Let's trade for him

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07-12-2013, 09:40 AM
  #148
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Putting Couturier at second line center would be insane when you have just signed a true 2C with good faceoff skills.
This is my general feeling as well. Couturier just isn't a better 2C at this point than LeCavalier. VL was 54% on the faceoff dot and while I expect Couturier to get better with age in the faceoff department, there's almost no chance he cracks 50% this coming season. Look how long it took Giroux to become dominant there.

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07-12-2013, 09:44 AM
  #149
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I don't get the Rinaldo hate sometimes, guy stepped up his game last year, and he is a valuable 4th line guy. He is starting to play smarter, and taking guys off the ice for being the **** disturber he is. Kid is a wolverine, and you want that in your lineup somewhere.

Rinaldo-Hall-Talbot

is fine by me for a 4th line

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07-12-2013, 09:55 AM
  #150
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They better have a hell of a preseason if you want Rinaldo out...he was awesome last year. There was a number somewhere with his hits per shift, would love to see that again.
Not exactly what I was looking for but:


"Frank Seravalli
‏@DNFlyers
Zac Rinaldo has an astounding 32.04 hits per 60 minutes this season. #statnerd"
Well hitting correlates negative with winning, so not sure I want him hitting people instead of actually having the puck (you can in general only hit people when they got the puck and if you dont have the puck, how can you shot and score?)

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