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(THW) Nashville's Free Agent Flops

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Old
07-09-2013, 08:26 PM
  #26
Preddownsouth
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Sorry can't take an article seriously when the writer not only gets a contract wrong, his math on the deal he does publish is wrong as well. Sigh.

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07-09-2013, 08:58 PM
  #27
PredsV82
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Ok forgive me if I'm way off base here but you come across as a guy with a good bit of broad hockey knowledge who drew the short straw and was stuck blogging about the Preds because, well, hey somebody's got to... and while all of your statistical analysis may be correct, all of us who have lived and died with this team for years know that the Preds sonehow always end up being better than the sum of their individual parts. Now don't get me wrong, I wish poile had landed a true top 6 winger... but my point is don't be surprised if at the end if the year you look back and realize that many of your generalizations were pretty accurate and yet somehow the Preds outperformed expectations and you say, "damn, how did that happen?"

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07-09-2013, 09:01 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Ok forgive me if I'm way off base here but you come across as a guy with a good bit of broad hockey knowledge who drew the short straw and was stuck blogging about the Preds because, well, hey somebody's got to... and while all of your statistical analysis may be correct, all of us who have lived and died with this team for years know that the Preds sonehow always end up being better than the sum of their individual parts. Now don't get me wrong, I wish poile had landed a true top 6 winger... but my point is don't be surprised if at the end if the year you look back and realize that many of your generalizations were pretty accurate and yet somehow the Preds outperformed expectations and you say, "damn, how did that happen?"
It's the catfish bro. No one ever accounts for the catfish.

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07-09-2013, 09:29 PM
  #29
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To the OP:
Sorry, dude, I do not think you quite understand the hockey system Trotz and company seem ready to redeploy in their 'Back to the Future' mantra. Size, grit, character, 4 lines of virtually interchangeable forwards are essential. And those of us who do follow this team know it was missing something in the room last year. I think some of these 'sheltered' role players you are 'pu pu'-ing may be a better tonic for the roster than a 6 million dollar headcase or a sign and send to the operating table Horton would ever be.
Am I thrilled with this lineup? No, I would be lying if I said that. However, when Seth Jones falls to you at #4 you have to show some adaptability. I think that is what this management team has tried to do. The actual FA crop was pretty sparse to begin with. They made a plan and executed it on day 1. You have no way to know if they were in on Seguin, Vinny, they obviously pitched Briere hard. This is not an easy market to sell to FAs especially after a down year. If you seriously want NP readers from here perhaps you should spend some time on these boards to get a feel from some of the knowledgeable long time posters about what makes this team tick. And maybe get a better thesaurus and spellchecker (sorry, I was only a couple credit hours from an English major and I could not resist).


Last edited by TMI: 07-11-2013 at 01:44 PM. Reason: getting a bit personal
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07-09-2013, 11:53 PM
  #30
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Staying healthy and winning a few shootouts would have made our season look dramatically different. We have been 3rd line grinding our way to the playoffs for years now. It is simply the Nashville way.

We will be back in the playoffs this year. Maybe blown out in the first round, but we will be there.

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07-11-2013, 01:26 PM
  #31
struckbyaparkedcar
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From a technical standpoint, this will be the worst article I will ever write. I got caught between a more rigid, news-y format and a good old fashioned ramble, and that accounts for most of the stylistic mediocrity (or worse, I'm looking at you, "without further ado"). The typos and such are inexcusable as well.

As for the central holding of the article, I completely disagree that I "don't understand Trotz system" or what the Predators sought to do in free agency. They spent market value or greater on four guys who top out as third liners, all of whom played in sheltered roles last season. The biggest thing those players bring to the table right now is that they're legitimate NHL bodies in lineup spots where waiver wire claims and future considerations were playing in 12-13. That's great, but if filling out the lineup is your #1 goal, why pay the premium Nashville did? They could've waited for the market to shake out a bit and gotten someone like Mason Raymond (with an eerily similar skillset and splits to Stalberg and more defensive value) on the cheap, rather than pay Stalberg 12 mil because he was one of the three least important forwards on a Cup team.

Assuming that most UFAs would sign for comparable money/term in Nashville, I would have given Stalberg and Cullen's money to Filppula, who is basically a younger, strictly better Cullen. From there, I would have given say, $4/2 to Raymond ($7 million in cap spent so far) and then signed say Chad Larose or Chuck Kobasew to a cheap deal (5-800k) as veteran depth on the fourth line. If locker room chemistry was such an issue, I'd be in on that Parros trade as well, especially because he wouldn't be the first enforcer to revitalize himself in the Music City. I could also sign one of Hendricks/Nystrom (I much prefer Hendricks) to round out the group, and still spend less than Poile did on the day.

Filppula (25/5)
Raymond (4/2)
Vet (800k/1)
Hendricks (7.4/4)
Parros (937k/1)

~10.6 in cap space
That package has the best player (Flip) while checking all the same boxes Nashville's actual UFA shopping list did, for cheaper.

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07-11-2013, 01:46 PM
  #32
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Guys, it's OK to critique an article, but when you start taking personal shots at a member of the HF Community you are violating the rules to which you agreed. I've cleaned up what crossed the line. If I have to do it again it won't be simple deletions.

Please, make your criticisms without getting personal and taking pot shots at the author.

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07-11-2013, 01:48 PM
  #33
Joe T Choker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
From a technical standpoint, this will be the worst article I will ever write. I got caught between a more rigid, news-y format and a good old fashioned ramble, and that accounts for most of the stylistic mediocrity (or worse, I'm looking at you, "without further ado"). The typos and such are inexcusable as well.

As for the central holding of the article, I completely disagree that I "don't understand Trotz system" or what the Predators sought to do in free agency. They spent market value or greater on four guys who top out as third liners, all of whom played in sheltered roles last season. The biggest thing those players bring to the table right now is that they're legitimate NHL bodies in lineup spots where waiver wire claims and future considerations were playing in 12-13. That's great, but if filling out the lineup is your #1 goal, why pay the premium Nashville did? They could've waited for the market to shake out a bit and gotten someone like Mason Raymond (with an eerily similar skillset and splits to Stalberg and more defensive value) on the cheap, rather than pay Stalberg 12 mil because he was one of the three least important forwards on a Cup team.

Assuming that most UFAs would sign for comparable money/term in Nashville, I would have given Stalberg and Cullen's money to Filppula, who is basically a younger, strictly better Cullen. From there, I would have given say, $4/2 to Raymond ($7 million in cap spent so far) and then signed say Chad Larose or Chuck Kobasew to a cheap deal (5-800k) as veteran depth on the fourth line. If locker room chemistry was such an issue, I'd be in on that Parros trade as well, especially because he wouldn't be the first enforcer to revitalize himself in the Music City. I could also sign one of Hendricks/Nystrom (I much prefer Hendricks) to round out the group, and still spend less than Poile did on the day.

Filppula (25/5)
Raymond (4/2)
Vet (800k/1)
Hendricks (7.4/4)
Parros (937k/1)

~10.6 in cap space
That package has the best player (Flip) while checking all the same boxes Nashville's actual UFA shopping list did, for cheaper.
Does that get us bigger in the Top 6 ? ... and I hate to say that ... but you're right that is a much cheaper avenue, I'm wondering what's on the move & for whom in the trade market, I just don't see this team as is at the beginning of the season... good job on the article, even if it's harsh and we don't like it ... this kind of article has been parroted when Nashville went banana sandwich in the Free Agent market on the 5th by many national writers (Lozo in particular)

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07-11-2013, 01:51 PM
  #34
glenngineer
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And I agree with the OP in his last post. We should've gotten more bang for the buck and didn't and now we're strapped with some contracts we will not be able to get rid of.

We ***** and moan about scoring issues yet as a fan base are content with spending $8 million on a fourth line? I would rather have spent that money on 2 players than 4 players that are not game changers. We're also pushing a home grown talent out the door for wanting more money than some feel he's worth but giving it to guys who aren't better players than he is. The fourth line salary as a total should not be above $4 million, period yet here we are, still lacking top line talent and about to ice a fourth line that is eating up 1/8 of our payroll.

Yes we needed grit and toughness but we could've done it without breaking the bank and still had money to spend on top 6 talent. Unless the young kids like Wilson, Bourque, Beck and Forsberg all turn in to studs this year, we're still going to have issues and while I like they're collective futures, I think Poile spent his money in an unwise fashion.

And if you're going to overpay for players, do it for talented ones, not 4th line grinders.

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07-11-2013, 02:17 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
And I agree with the OP in his last post. We should've gotten more bang for the buck and didn't and now we're strapped with some contracts we will not be able to get rid of.

We ***** and moan about scoring issues yet as a fan base are content with spending $8 million on a fourth line? I would rather have spent that money on 2 players than 4 players that are not game changers. We're also pushing a home grown talent out the door for wanting more money than some feel he's worth but giving it to guys who aren't better players than he is. The fourth line salary as a total should not be above $4 million, period yet here we are, still lacking top line talent and about to ice a fourth line that is eating up 1/8 of our payroll.

Yes we needed grit and toughness but we could've done it without breaking the bank and still had money to spend on top 6 talent. Unless the young kids like Wilson, Bourque, Beck and Forsberg all turn in to studs this year, we're still going to have issues and while I like they're collective futures, I think Poile spent his money in an unwise fashion.

And if you're going to overpay for players, do it for talented ones, not 4th line grinders.
However, given ENOUGH time and space, Stalberg, Wilson, Bourque, Beck and Forsberg could all turn in to studs this year and signing the 3rd/4th line vets provide leadership, grit, and most importantly shows a desire to compensate players to tell everyone that Nashville is a destination rather than a stepping stone.

I was shocked as anybody when they signed so many guys; but thinking this through, I see this as an investment for the future when the team's capability trends higher than JUST making the playoffs. When really need that scoring winger or centerman as the last piece of a Cup run, I would gander that we'd not HAVE to overpay and create a roster hole for a guy that wants a real shot at Lord Stanley's Cup. I think that many of us are too near-sighted to see the bigger picture of what I believe is stage-setting for the future while concentrating on just making the playoffs in the near-term. In the interim, these guys play important roles on the team, not only on the ice, but also as leaders and mentors for the younger players. They were targeted for a reason and I'm going to defer judgement until they've had time to blend into the fabric of the team and play a couple of months of hockey.

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07-11-2013, 02:36 PM
  #36
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I agree to most of it as well. We could have snagged Grabo and added either Stalberg or Cullen and and Vet for the same or less $$ and would have had 1 if not 2 a Top 6 players. (Grabo 5.5M, VS 3M, Cullen 3.5M, MH 1.85M and EN 2.5M) VS is a 2-3 liner, Same for Cullen, MH and EN are 3-4 liners. Spent 10.85M for the next two yrs for these four and 7.35 for the next 4 yrs. As I have posted before, defense and grittiness is great but you still have to put the puck in the net to win. I think we could have made better choices on what we purchased. JMHO

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07-11-2013, 02:43 PM
  #37
PredsV82
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This is just more of the same old magical thinking crap that happens every summer when someone criticizes poile for not signing someone for the same money that they signed for elsewhere or didn't trade for a player that got traded elsewhere. Its a fools analysis because some players wouldn't sign here for any amout of money and some gms wouldn't trade with us even if we have a better offer on the table.

So if our options are sign the people we signed or sign nobody, then ill take what we got. As I have said time and time again, its not our money, so unless these signings prevent us from signing someone else down the road, who cares??

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07-11-2013, 03:11 PM
  #38
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I think I'll wait and actually see the product before I say this is a flop signing. Poile isn't anything if he's not calculated and in his mind, these are all good fits for what we needed. On the surface, knowing Trotz, I'd say we look improved. We'll wait and see the results.

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07-11-2013, 03:41 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post

Filppula (25/5)
Raymond (4/2)
Vet (800k/1)
Hendricks (7.4/4)
Parros (937k/1)

~10.6 in cap space
That package has the best player (Flip) while checking all the same boxes Nashville's actual UFA shopping list did, for cheaper.
Filppula is not demonstrably better than Cullen, and Cullen's contract is short - i'd rather have Cullen for 2 years than be stuck with Filppula for 5 at 5mil. If Filppula flops away from Detroit, then you're stuck with an albatross of a contract. If Cullen flops, he's gone in after next year.

Small, injury prone Mason Raymond? Yep, we don't have any of those type players. Quick - who scored more goals and points in 2011/12 - Mason Raymond or Eric Nystrom? There's a reason Raymond's still unsigned.

Parros? Really? We had a Parros before, it was called McGrattan, and it sat in the press box. At least Nystrom/Hendricks can contribute on a bottom line while mucking it up a bit.

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07-11-2013, 03:49 PM
  #40
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Yeah, Filppula the amazing $5m center has scored more than 40 points once in 7 NHL seasons.

Yet Cullen at $3m is a flop, he's only done it 6 times.

Cullen also out produced Filpula last season.

Again, one is a sexy pick, the other, not so much so he must be a flop.

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07-11-2013, 06:51 PM
  #41
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You do seem to switch back and forth between wanting to stick with some AP style journalism and the tendencies of opinion-blog writers. I'm interested to see where you go from here forward. Overall, it's not a bad article once edited for typos. You cover our FA deals well and I think it aptly points out the typical confusing or disappointing choices made by Poile.

Alas, it's hard for someone who hasn't followed the Preds very long to have blind faith that somehow, mysteriously, Poile & Trotz will actually pull this ***** off. Sometimes we forget, ourselves. We will spend the season going all Chicken Little all over this board and then, of course, at the last minute the Preds pick it up and we'll hit the playoffs. After months of us posting about what's wrong with the Trotz system we'll change our tune and we'll be buying our post-season tickets full of self-assured words that we always knew deep down inside that the Preds would get to the post season ...and this year is gonna be the year we win the cup. Then we'll blow it. We'll buy some Preds shirts on discount, complain about trade deadline moves, and say maybe someone should get fired. After the summer we'll start all over again.

Anyway, I forgot where I was going here, but I'd say take it easy on our new writer. Sometimes seeing is believing and perhaps he has yet to witness the mysterious Predators ways. Welcome aboard Struckbyaparkedcar.

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07-11-2013, 07:28 PM
  #42
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I'll chime in and admit I crossed the line, a little too personal.
We Preds fans like to moan nobody even seems to acknowledge we deserve a team, so perhaps we aren't practiced enough at reacting when we get some attention, even of the less than overtly flattering sort. I promise to read future articles with an open mind and provide constructive feedback of the sort I would personally appreciate if I had written the blog.

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07-11-2013, 07:44 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollymcdeath View Post
You do seem to switch back and forth between wanting to stick with some AP style journalism and the tendencies of opinion-blog writers. I'm interested to see where you go from here forward. Overall, it's not a bad article once edited for typos. You cover our FA deals well and I think it aptly points out the typical confusing or disappointing choices made by Poile.

Alas, it's hard for someone who hasn't followed the Preds very long to have blind faith that somehow, mysteriously, Poile & Trotz will actually pull this ***** off. Sometimes we forget, ourselves. We will spend the season going all Chicken Little all over this board and then, of course, at the last minute the Preds pick it up and we'll hit the playoffs. After months of us posting about what's wrong with the Trotz system we'll change our tune and we'll be buying our post-season tickets full of self-assured words that we always knew deep down inside that the Preds would get to the post season ...and this year is gonna be the year we win the cup. Then we'll blow it. We'll buy some Preds shirts on discount, complain about trade deadline moves, and say maybe someone should get fired. After the summer we'll start all over again.

Anyway, I forgot where I was going here, but I'd say take it easy on our new writer. Sometimes seeing is believing and perhaps he has yet to witness the mysterious Predators ways. Welcome aboard Struckbyaparkedcar.
Speak for yourself. There's no 'our' anything going on here.

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07-11-2013, 07:58 PM
  #44
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Yeah, Filppula the amazing $5m center has scored more than 40 points once in 7 NHL seasons.

Yet Cullen at $3m is a flop, he's only done it 6 times.

Cullen also out produced Filpula last season.

Again, one is a sexy pick, the other, not so much so he must be a flop.
That's why these kind of posts infuriate me. Some guy draws the short straw and has to write about the Preds. Does some cursory research and quickly concludes all of these guys who haven't seen a minute of ice time in a Preds sweater are already flops.

Guys like this and Lozo who seem to know so much about this stuff should give David Poile a call and see if he could use some 'expert' help.

Look these guys may turn out to be bad additions. Or maybe they will gel and put out a team that dominates defensively while getting some good offense from Cullen/Stalberg/etc. The point is we don't know yet. Neither does the author of this article. Labeling them flops, winners, whatever is worthless right now.

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07-11-2013, 08:31 PM
  #45
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That's why these kind of posts infuriate me. Some guy draws the short straw and has to write about the Preds. Does some cursory research and quickly concludes all of these guys who haven't seen a minute of ice time in a Preds sweater are already flops.

Guys like this and Lozo who seem to know so much about this stuff should give David Poile a call and see if he could use some 'expert' help.

Look these guys may turn out to be bad additions. Or maybe they will gel and put out a team that dominates defensively while getting some good offense from Cullen/Stalberg/etc. The point is we don't know yet. Neither does the author of this article. Labeling them flops, winners, whatever is worthless right now.
I agree. Another article that fails to take in the reality of "it's hard to get people to want to come here", "why did the Preds overspend", etc.....

blech.

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07-11-2013, 08:44 PM
  #46
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I agree. Another article that fails to take in the reality of "it's hard to get people to want to come here", "why did the Preds overspend", etc.....

blech.
I think that's BS now, with the way the Conferences are now pretty much all teams are within the same or 2 time zones, but that's jmho

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07-11-2013, 08:52 PM
  #47
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I think that's BS now, with the way the Conferences are now pretty much all teams are within the same or 2 time zones, but that's jmho
Let's see, a train ride from Philly to NYC or a ride in a plane from here to Vancouver? Just my opinion...

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07-11-2013, 09:45 PM
  #48
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Let's see, a train ride from Philly to NYC or a ride in a plane from here to Vancouver? Just my opinion...
Which is now just once a year for both teams

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07-12-2013, 06:52 AM
  #49
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I found the overall quality of the article to be below average, as with most of the articles I've read on that site.
Quoted for truth!

While I am not impressed with the article, I feel it is simply because you have not or do not truly follow the Predators. I don't believe you've really followed the Predators to know and understand them.

I will, however, read any of your future articles about the Predators and "try" to keep an open mind while doing so.


Last edited by Pattypred: 07-12-2013 at 07:05 AM. Reason: Add additional information
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07-12-2013, 09:05 AM
  #50
struckbyaparkedcar
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I'm not hating on the team as a whole, I'm hating on the first day of UFA they just had, that's why the article is as negative as it is.

I think the contracts Poile dealt out are more Gill or Gaustad than Goc, that their biggest impact on the Predators next season will be being NHL bodies instead of not-NHL-players and that DP didn't have to break out the checkbook for that effect. Stalberg especially I have issues with. I don't think he can succeed without either a straightforward forechecking role on a sheltered depth line (Shaw), or a combination like Kane and Toews that allows him to wheel while they do most of the work. I don't think he has the defensive chops to play on either of your top two lines, and he's not good enough at creating his own shots to aid Smith's development on the third line (or whoever ends up on the third line).

And there's a reason the two names I brought up as alternatives here are Gordon and Filppula, two guys who were paid premiums by non-playoff teams. I'm not saying "OMG Nashville didn't sign Iginla, bust city," by any stretch. I didn't even bring Matt Cooke, a better depth forward than anyone the Preds signed, into the conversation specifically because he signed with what he saw as an up-and-coming squad. Honestly, if these four guys were the only ones willing to go to Nashville, I would have told at least two of them (Stalberg/Nystrom) to piss off and played the long-game on the trade market.

If the Predators do well this year its because: Jones/Forsberg make meaningful contributions to the lineup, Wilson continues to develop, the core stays healthy, and they don't have to rely on a revolving door of Bobby Butlers for secondary scoring. I have nothing against grinder-heavy lineups, I just don't think Nashville invested in particularly great, or even "good" grinders, given their defensive and possession needs.

Again, let's recap, the Predators signed:
0 top 3 QoC forwards
0 top six forwards under 36
1 forward better than 9th overall in team TOI
1 forward with a positive corsi (which came in one of the most sheltered roles of the season)
1 forward with first unit PK deployments (on the 20th ranked PK)

And the only two forwards with decent goals against (Stalberg/Cullen) are one season removed from significantly worse defensive seasons, in roles far more comparable to what they'd be counted on to do in Nashville.

I don't understand how the Predators had a July 5th that's above significant derision. That they signed a bunch of grinders isn't the issue, it's that they signed a bunch of grinders who aren't even very good at grinding.

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