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[EDM/STL] David Perron for Magnus Paajarvi + 2nd '14 | Part 2

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Old
07-12-2013, 10:20 AM
  #426
dustrock
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
No doubt. Since 1979 the Oilers have drafted three guys in the second round who ever did anything useful for this organization, four if you want to count Laraque. Graves imo is the most useful player the Oilers have ever drafted in the second round. I like David Perron a hell of a lot better than I like the chances of the Oilers picking anything useful with their second round pick.
that's crazy to read, especially given the Oilers' late round success in the early years lol

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07-12-2013, 10:50 AM
  #427
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I was waiting for someone to be pissed that a second rounder was traded
Who stated that?

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07-12-2013, 11:08 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
No doubt. Since 1979 the Oilers have drafted three guys in the second round who ever did anything useful for this organization, four if you want to count Laraque. Graves imo is the most useful player the Oilers have ever drafted in the second round. I like David Perron a hell of a lot better than I like the chances of the Oilers picking anything useful with their second round pick.
If you're talking about Adam Graves, he was a Detroit draft pick. The Oilers traded for him as part of the Carson deal.

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07-12-2013, 12:07 PM
  #429
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one thing that confused me about Perron's season was that he was pointless in his last 5 games. Turns out, that coincides to when he was moved from his regualr line to a line with Berglund and Tarasenko.

Tarasenko had hit a wall and only had 3 pints in his last 15 games. Berglund is a defensive centre who had 38 points the year before in Hitch's system. Maybe that was just not a good fit for Perron.

Remove those last 5 games and his season prorates to 48 points. In a Hitchcok system, that is actually pretty good. IMO, he should be a 60+ point guy for us this year.

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07-12-2013, 12:15 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
that's crazy to read, especially given the Oilers' late round success in the early years lol
The part that really skews the numbers was from '81 to '92. They had 12 2nd round picks, and the only one who had any sort of NHL career was Brad Werenka. It was a truly horrific stretch by the "genius" Barry Fraser, and one of the reasons why this team went into the toilet as the 90's rolled around.

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07-12-2013, 12:25 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
No doubt. Since 1979 the Oilers have drafted three guys in the second round who ever did anything useful for this organization, four if you want to count Laraque. Graves imo is the most useful player the Oilers have ever drafted in the second round. I like David Perron a hell of a lot better than I like the chances of the Oilers picking anything useful with their second round pick.
2nd round picks have been a bust (very odd) but going back to 79 the team did quite well with 3rd and 4th rounds picks.

I would argue that Stoll (closely followed by Matt Greene) was probably the best 2nd round pick the team has selected so far.
I expect Petry to ultimately be the best 2nd round pick assuming he stays with the team.

I would argue though....just because the Oilers have sucked picking in the 2nd round doesn't mean that pick has little to no value.

That said... sending a 2nd and Paajarvi to the Blues for Perron is a good deal for the Oilers.

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07-12-2013, 12:49 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Blues fan here. Blues are pretty tough up front. I'd say we're one of the bigger and most physical teams in the West along with LA. Has HeavyHitter seen Chris Stewart fight?

Anyways, if you guys think Perron is gonna be some extreme pest like a Steve Ott or anything even close to that you're going to be sorely disappointed. He's not really much of a pest at all, he doesn't hit or chirp or really get in anyone's face or any of that stuff. The only things he occasionally does is go annoy the goalie in front of the net before some defenseman throws him to the ice like a rag doll.

He's fearless, but he's not really going to add any toughness to your team or anything.

Granted I haven't had the time to read through your entire thread so maybe I'm off base on what you're talking about, but I just don't want you guys to get any misconceptions about him at all. He's not a physical player. He just has a lot of passion for the game and will do whatever to win, whether that's get mauled in front of the net or whatever. Most things don't seem to effect him (except for blind side hits which goes for any player).

Also the 205 lbs he's listed at on your site is pretty generous. I'd say he's about 6'0'' 195 maybe.

He has good hands. Just needs to learn how to release the puck quicker on his wrist shot if he wants to become that 30 goal scorer. But being surrounded with skilled guys in Edmonton, I think he could reach that number. He needs to play in an offensive system to fully use his creativity, but he still needs to make quicker decisions and shoot more. The talent is there for sure though.
I never said he was a super pest but he does have pest qualities (which none of our top 6 does). And that's coming from my own personal observations and from other Blues fans. No body said he was going to play physical either. I don't know if he'll ever be a 30 goal scorer but once he learns to not hang onto the puck for so long, I think he'll be more effective. It's nice that you guys play physical, I've seen Gagner play physical, still doesn't back up the "pleanty of tough forwards". Thank you for coming to post this though, always nice to hear from the players former team.

Oh but btw HeavyHitter has seen Chris Stewart fight. I've been watching him since before Blues fans even knew he existed


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07-12-2013, 12:54 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
one thing that confused me about Perron's season was that he was pointless in his last 5 games. Turns out, that coincides to when he was moved from his regualr line to a line with Berglund and Tarasenko.

Tarasenko had hit a wall and only had 3 pints in his last 15 games. Berglund is a defensive centre who had 38 points the year before in Hitch's system. Maybe that was just not a good fit for Perron.

Remove those last 5 games and his season prorates to 48 points. In a Hitchcok system, that is actually pretty good. IMO, he should be a 60+ point guy for us this year.
Crazy talk! Lol

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07-12-2013, 01:38 PM
  #434
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If Perron stays healthy (and that's a risk with any player... not just Perron), this trade is a steal for the Oilers.

I think people are underrating Perron's defensive abilities somewhat as well. Yes he played under Hitch which probably gives him a leg up in that area just by being in that system... but he plays well defensively and takes responsibility in his own end and offensively he's a clear cut above Magnus as well... in both goal scoring and playmaking he's put up better numbers.

Of course Paajarvi is still developing and will improve... but Perron is young enough that he still has upside as well.

For me it's a clear case of a trading for player that has arrived for a player that is still on his journey. We won't truly know until the ends of their careers who ended up the best... but that's too long a time horizon anyway. These players might change teams 2-3 more times in their careers before all is said and done.

The whole point is to make your team as strong as possible and Perron gives the Oilers an edge while obtaining a player that's only a few years older than Magnus. It would be a different story entirely if the player they were getting back was in his mid-late 30's... that would be a quick fix, all-in type deal that could burn them for being too anxious to make a deal, but that's not what the Oilers did in this case.

The biggest risk is if injuries re-occur but that can happen to any player at any time and although that has to be weighed as part of the equation, I think that's a risk you have to take in acquiring any players that have any element of physical/gritty/pest play in their game.

Even soft players who don't play that style get injured (as we have MANY examples of on the Oilers for many years now)... there's really no way to take that risk out of the picture and get a guaranteed 82 games per year player (unless you are an ironman like Cogliano... then the Oilers trade you away. )

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07-12-2013, 01:41 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
If Perron stays healthy (and that's a risk with any player... not just Perron), this trade is a steal for the Oilers.

I think people are underrating Perron's defensive abilities somewhat as well. Yes he played under Hitch which probably gives him a leg up in that area just by being in that system... but he plays well defensively and takes responsibility in his own end and offensively he's a clear cut above Magnus as well... in both goal scoring and playmaking he's put up better numbers.

Of course Paajarvi is still developing and will improve... but Perron is young enough that he still has upside as well.

For me it's a clear case of a trading for player that has arrived for a player that is still on his journey. We won't truly know until the ends of their careers who ended up the best... but that's too long a time horizon anyway. These players might change teams 2-3 more times in their careers before all is said and done.

The whole point is to make your team as strong as possible and Perron gives the Oilers an edge while obtaining a player that's only a few years older than Magnus. It would be a different story entirely if the player they were getting back was in his mid-late 30's... that would be a quick fix, all-in type deal that could burn them for being too anxious to make a deal, but that's not what the Oilers did in this case.

The biggest risk is if injuries re-occur but that can happen to any player at any time and although that has to be weighed as part of the equation, I think that's a risk you have to take in acquiring any players that have any element of physical/gritty/pest play in their game.

Even soft players who don't play that style get injured (as we have MANY examples of on the Oilers for many years now)... there's really no way to take that risk out of the picture and get a guaranteed 82 games per year player (unless you are an ironman like Cogliano... then the Oilers trade you away. )
Solid post. Well said

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07-12-2013, 01:42 PM
  #436
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In some ways I thought the last couple of years that Berglund might be a guy that STL thought about moving, just because it seemed to me like he never really developed into the star they thought he would be.

So I can see how Perron going from playing with a guy like Backes to Berglund had an effect on his scoring.

I'm not concerned about any bad press Perron's getting from STL on his way out, that happens with every trade. We had many Oilers fans say "good riddance PRV we didn't think you'd amount to anything anyway" as well.

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07-12-2013, 01:42 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by HeavyHitter99 View Post
I never said he was a super pest but he does have pest qualities (which none of our top 6 does). And that's coming from my own personal observations and from other Blues fans. No body said he was going to play physical either. I don't know if he'll ever be a 30 goal scorer but once he learns to not hang onto the puck for so long, I think he'll be more effective. It's nice that you guys play physical, I've seen Gagner play physical, still doesn't back up the "pleanty of tough forwards". Thank you for coming to post this though, always nice to hear from the players former team.

Oh but btw HeavyHitter has seen Chris Stewart fight. I've been watching him since before Blues fans even knew he existed


I've had Stewart in my hockey pools every year since his rookie season. He's a lot of fun to watch and cheer for.

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07-12-2013, 01:59 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
If you're talking about Adam Graves, he was a Detroit draft pick. The Oilers traded for him as part of the Carson deal.
My bad. Of course you are right.

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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
I would argue that Stoll (closely followed by Matt Greene) was probably the best 2nd round pick the team has selected so far.
I would rather have Graves than either of those guys, but yeah, since I had a brain cramp and forgot that he was a Wings pick, Stoll and Greene would be the only two guys of any impact the Oilers have ever drafted in the second round.
Quote:
I expect Petry to ultimately be the best 2nd round pick assuming he stays with the team.
He's got a chance to be the best ever second round pick for sure.
And due respect to Petry, that's pretty bad for a franchise that has thirty plus years of draft history.
Quote:
I would argue though....just because the Oilers have sucked picking in the 2nd round doesn't mean that pick has little to no value.
No, you are right it has value as a trading chip, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.
Setoguchi just went for a second rounder. I'd make that deal all day long.
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That said... sending a 2nd and Paajarvi to the Blues for Perron is a good deal for the Oilers.
Yes it is. I'm excited to see how Perron fits in.

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07-12-2013, 02:02 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post


I've had Stewart in my hockey pools every year since his rookie season. He's a lot of fun to watch and cheer for.
He was fun to watch in Kingston too

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07-12-2013, 02:29 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by harpoon View Post
He's got a chance to be the best ever second round pick for sure.
And due respect to Petry, that's pretty bad for a franchise that has thirty plus years of draft history.
Pretty bad indeed.

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07-12-2013, 02:31 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Psycho Dad View Post


I've had Stewart in my hockey pools every year since his rookie season. He's a lot of fun to watch and cheer for.
hope you didn't have him 2 seasons ago!

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07-12-2013, 03:20 PM
  #442
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Its not an opinion that one player is nearly twice as prolific as the other. Its not an opinion that one player established themselves as a true ringer of an NHL player on a very good NHL team as a rookie. While the other couldn't grab a spot or stay in the lineup on the worst team in the NHL. Think about that and let it sink in.


This is one of your strangest points. You know I like your posting, but this is twisting. One player scored 86 goals in the top league in the world. The other was playing in far lesser rungs of hockey and having trouble scoring much at all. Of course being that I'm going back as far as i can with Paajarvi theres also many more seasons in that mix. I suspect more games played as well. That you think I'm specious raising that Perron has as many NHL goals as Paajarvi has scored anywhere in his career is odd. If anything this head and shoulders demonstrates how much more Perron can produce in the premium league in the world. i thought it was a sobering point, and probably a few people agree. Nobody else questioned my point.

Paajarvi would score 86 NHL goals if he played another 5 NHL seasons. He has 26 now.
First paragraph, ok. No objection.

Second. You are considering 6 seasons for both, correct (19-25 y.o. Perron, 15-21 y.o. Paajarvi)?

(( last minute addition (I already wrote the rest), the point is that I never denied that Paajarvi has performed worse than Perron in scoring goals in the NHL, that should be clear from my previous post ))

First of all, the notion that Paajarvi was not a goal scorer in Sweden is a myth. I have said this more times than I can count but it just keeps coming back. I challenge you, or anyone else, to find a player who has scored more goals in the SHL between 16 and 18 years old who is not named Sedin over the last 15 years (you don't really have to bother, I have already looked, no one).

Second, you are comparing 6 professional seasons of Paajarvi starting at 15(!) with 6 professional seasons of Perron starting at 19. Is that fair? I don't really care what others say but I will say it is not.

Let's compare Paajarvi to Perron between 15 and 21.
Paajarvi: 20G SHL, 11G AHL, 26G NHL, (3 SHL seasons, about 2 NHL seasons, about 1 AHL season)
Perron: 28G NHL (2 seasons NHL)

I know that this comparison is not fair due to several factors but at the same time you can not deny that it is not fair putting Paajarvi's number over the last 6 seasons up against Perron's.

Maybe I am missing something in translation here but I can not see how this comparison makes any sense.

Again, I am not saying Perron is not a better player today, or that he is not a better fit for our team.

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07-12-2013, 03:27 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
one thing that confused me about Perron's season was that he was pointless in his last 5 games. Turns out, that coincides to when he was moved from his regualr line to a line with Berglund and Tarasenko.

Tarasenko had hit a wall and only had 3 pints in his last 15 games. Berglund is a defensive centre who had 38 points the year before in Hitch's system. Maybe that was just not a good fit for Perron.

Remove those last 5 games and his season prorates to 48 points. In a Hitchcok system, that is actually pretty good. IMO, he should be a 60+ point guy for us this year.
... scored 17 goals this season, i.e. top 30 in goals scored in the league.

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07-12-2013, 03:30 PM
  #444
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That's interesting. You slag others for their comments on his actual play. The stats support their views. Maggie isn't a good PKer or even specially adept at drawing penalties. His speed through the neutral zone doesn't develop into anything in the offensive zone. He hasn't played against strong competition yet. I guess it's good to have hope, though.
People who doesnt think Maggie had a great season and developed fine isnt looking at the games or cant change their minds and admit they were wrong on him.

Prv has the body and size to turn into a powerforward and a great 3 -liner with 2 line upside and that what our team need. Prv can easily find his confidence playing a more offensive role with better teammates(i dont mean last season) and a defensive responsible C.

Perron is quite good what i have seen of him(not much) has good playmaking skills and could probably be a boost in another team.
He arent a powerforward, that we need when we have a soft 2 C in the lineup.

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On the contrary you can go back to Paajarvi's rookie year TC reading me waxing on about this players attention to detail in camp and drills as he not only learns the routines and what is being asked of him he's explaining the drills to vets like Andrew Cogliano. My first response to Magnus was color me impressed. Unfortunately ample exposure to the player continued to devaluate ones view of his potential. You'll remember I liked MPS. Omark not so much....lol
Maybe you liked prv after his first camp, but you throwed him under the bus early in last season and said that he hasnt the skill to be a nhl player and would be back in europe before season was over.

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07-12-2013, 04:25 PM
  #445
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I would rather have Graves than either of those guys, but yeah, since I had a brain cramp and forgot that he was a Wings pick, Stoll and Greene would be the only two guys of any impact the Oilers have ever drafted in the second round.
Given that criteria, I'd also include David Vyborny as decently impactful for a 2nd round pick. Of course, in a fit of pure incompetence the Oilers frittered that asset away for nothing, and Columbus reaped a couple of 60+ point seasons out of him before he went back home.

Anyway I'm straying off topic. Sorry.

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07-12-2013, 05:13 PM
  #446
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@LaGu - I think what Replacement is saying is that often young players on their way to the NHL light up their junior leagues.

Obviously that might not happen in Sweden as much as it does in Canada, but Replacement is saying "Look PRV didn't score 20 goals in any of the junior leagues where the competition should have been less fierce and his talents more obvious".

The thinking here is that the gap between the star players and regular players narrows as you advance in each league.

So he is saying, look, Perron has scored 20 goals in the NHL, which should be the toughest league in the world. PRV couldn't do that playing against inferior players at 15 years old.

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07-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #447
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MSP is a big, fast, young, skilled 2 way forward who had the potential to significantly out-perform his next contract. We have almost zero of those guys and team's go nowhere without them.

Top 6 was skilled and too small and now is more skilled and smaller - WTF? - they will get killed in their new division by big teams like LAK, SJS who will simply pound that top 6 into ineffectiveness just like the last 10 games of the 2013 season. They will do fine until it get serious then fold like a wet paper bag.

Bottom 6 is arguably worse than last year. Added Gordon which is good but he's an overpay and the rest is junk, hope and dreams. No out-performers at all.

So short-term it's a wash but longterm MSP is exactly the type of player that the Oilers should have been looking to add - not deal for another smaller, skill player.

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07-12-2013, 06:17 PM
  #448
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What we needed is PRV and Harti to become one. That's what we need to play against the physical grinding teams.

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07-12-2013, 06:33 PM
  #449
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Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
@LaGu - I think what Replacement is saying is that often young players on their way to the NHL light up their junior leagues.

Obviously that might not happen in Sweden as much as it does in Canada, but Replacement is saying "Look PRV didn't score 20 goals in any of the junior leagues where the competition should have been less fierce and his talents more obvious".

The thinking here is that the gap between the star players and regular players narrows as you advance in each league.

So he is saying, look, Perron has scored 20 goals in the NHL, which should be the toughest league in the world. PRV couldn't do that playing against inferior players at 15 years old.
I know, and it's fine. It's just that Paajarvi left the junior leagues when he was 15 years old. That is the difference and that is why the comparison is fair imo.

Oh, and you will never see players in Swedish junior leagues put up numbers even remotely close to that of NA juniors.

What I am trying to debunk is the myth that Paajarvi was not considered a good prospect in terms of goal scoring, he was. That doesn't mean anything else than that though. I just don't like it when posters use this argument since it is not accurate (and in the end this it nothing personal, I know that Replacement knows better ...)

edit: Last phrase... Do you really think that a Paajarvi at 15, 16 or 17 should have produced as a Perron at 19, 20 and 21? Again, I ask you to please review the numbers here, more than 12 goals as an under 20 year player in SHL has almost never happened (last time was D.Sedin in 98). That just how it is. On the other hand, how many under 20 players have scored more than 20 goals in the NHL while they were still under 20 in the last 15 years (Perron for example had 13G).

Bah, I'll leave this be since I know I am right .


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07-12-2013, 07:01 PM
  #450
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MSP is a big, fast, young, skilled 2 way forward who had the potential to significantly out-perform his next contract. We have almost zero of those guys and team's go nowhere without them.

Top 6 was skilled and too small and now is more skilled and smaller - WTF? - they will get killed in their new division by big teams like LAK, SJS who will simply pound that top 6 into ineffectiveness just like the last 10 games of the 2013 season. They will do fine until it get serious then fold like a wet paper bag.

Bottom 6 is arguably worse than last year. Added Gordon which is good but he's an overpay and the rest is junk, hope and dreams. No out-performers at all.

So short-term it's a wash but longterm MSP is exactly the type of player that the Oilers should have been looking to add - not deal for another smaller, skill player.
MPS plays and will always play like he's 5'9''

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