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Mats Zuccarello Re-signs (1 year, $1.15M)

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:27 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Green Blob View Post
RB really hates Zucc huh?
More than anything he hates people talking about him (Norwegians in perticular), made that perfectly clear in another thread. L.O.L

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:31 PM
  #152
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This year. What about next year? Revenues are expected to increase quite a bit.
Like I said, 10-15% isn't reasonable. But 30%? The original number. Escrow wouldn't cover that. There is absolutely no doubt MZA is giving up money here.

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07-12-2013, 02:32 PM
  #153
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Zucc getting boned by management again I see.

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:35 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I worry about it much more than you. Our LW depth is hideous.

You can say "put Kreider and Pouliot on the 2 offensive lines," but theres that little problem where neither player has been a consistent offensive threat during their time in the NHL.
With Richards still in NY, there isn't cap room to go out and sign a top-6 LW. It's just what they have to work with this season. I realize it's not ideal, but it's what they have.

Hope Kreider and Pouliot can continue their progression (Kreider) or continue their success from last year (Pouliot) and be good complimentary players.

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07-12-2013, 02:48 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Either you are really poor at math, or you have a ridiculously inflated sense of Zucc's worth.

1.25 mil is only 10-15% of what he could get elsewhere? Seriously?

What team in the SEL or KHL is paying him 8.3 to 12.5 mil per season?
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Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
10-15% is exaggerated a lot, but you're not taking the 13% flat tax in Russia into account.

Zuccarello pays about 46% of his salary in taxes and then (this year at least), another 17% on escrow. Suddenly the 1.25 mil becomes 462k. After a 13% tax rate in Russia, his salary would only need to be 3.55 mil for his salary here to be 15% of what it is there. Not as ludicrous as you might imagine.
Exactly, and numbers reported from KHL is net tax.

I did exaggerate a little and apologies for it. Zucc will definitely not get 30% in his pocket of what he makes in the KHL. You can't complain on living in Russia if you are a multi dollar millionere.

It's ridiculous to expect to be able to beat him up in arbitration. The NHL financially has become a by a wide margin b-tier league to the KHL.

Nice work Bettman!

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:54 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Zucc getting boned by management again I see.
Getting boned?

Management is probably on the fence regarding if Zuccarello is worth an investment. Who could blame them? Hes a player whose only attributes are offensive creativity, which hasnt translated to big production in the NHL so far. Unlike Hagelin, you're dealing with a guy who is virtually worthless if he isnt putting up points.

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07-12-2013, 02:58 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Getting boned?

Management is probably on the fence regarding if Zuccarello is worth an investment. Who could blame them? Hes a player whose only attributes are offensive creativity, which hasnt translated to big production in the NHL so far. Unlike Hagelin, you're dealing with a guy who is virtually worthless if he isnt putting up points.
Yes, he's getting boned.

He got prematurely sent down in the 2010-11 season.

He gets no oppurtunity in the playoffs, despite plugs like Rupp costing the team with their undisciplined and lack of mobility. The Rangers get heavily outchanced in the 2012 series vs. the Devils.

He was even bothered a contract extension, despite the Rangers having a ton of capspace before the lockout happened.

Then he comes back and pretty much changes the dynamics of the team with his puck possession ability. The Rangers go on to have one of the best records league-wide with Zuccarello in the lineup, primarily due to his dominance at controlling the flow of the game.

Point totals be damned, he was a good player, especially in his recent stint.

For all the raving on Hagelin's puck possession game, Zuccarello beats him in the dust.

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07-12-2013, 03:03 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Exactly, and numbers reported from KHL is net tax.

I did exaggerate a little and apologies for it. Zucc will definitely not get 30% in his pocket of what he makes in the KHL. You can't complain on living in Russia if you are a multi dollar millionere.

It's ridiculous to expect to be able to beat him up in arbitration. The NHL financially has become a — by a wide margin — b-tier league to the KHL.

Nice work Bettman!
The NHL isn't the only professional league in North America with a salary cap. The NFL and NBA do just fine with a salary cap.

Taxes are higher in North America than in Russia. That's Bettman's fault too?

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...-bad-business/

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But any suggestion that the KHL will match the NHL any time soon is absurd. The KHL does not have a feasible business model. It survives off many hundreds of millions of dollars from oligarchs whose dubious fortunes were amassed when they ruthlessly bought up huge state enterprises for a song during the brutal months that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union.

“The KHL is not a realistic business project,” said Roman Belyaev, marketing manager for Metallurg Novokuznetsk, a city of 600,000 people tucked away in central Siberia. “There are only four or five good businesses in the whole league.”
How much money are they paying vs. what they are bringing in? I guess if you don't care about being profitable, it doesn't matter.

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Among the few teams that may break even are Dynamo Riga, Lev Praha and Locomotiv Yaroslavl. The league has a salary cap of $36-million that is sometimes broken, and that does not include the salaries of returning NHLers. While Dynamo Moscow, Metallurg Magnitogorsk and CKA St. Petersburg have payrolls of $50-million or $60-million a year, Leon Vaysfeld, the general manager for Novokuznetsk, admitted he only gets a little more than halfway to the KHL’s cap floor of $8-million a year.
Some high profile players can make a lot more there. But the average player? Nope. NHL teams spend a lot more on player salaries.

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07-12-2013, 03:04 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Yes, he's getting boned.

He got prematurely sent down in the 2010-11 season.

He gets no oppurtunity in the playoffs, despite plugs like Rupp costing the team with their undisciplined and lack of mobility. The Rangers get heavily outchanced in the 2012 series vs. the Devils.

He was even bothered a contract extension, despite the Rangers having a ton of capspace before the lockout happened.

Then he comes back and pretty much changes the dynamics of the team with his puck possession ability. The Rangers go on to have one of the best records league-wide with Zuccarello in the lineup, primarily due to his dominance at controlling the flow of the game.

Point totals be damned, he was a good player, especially in his recent stint.

For all the raving on Hagelin's puck possession game, Zuccarello beats him in the dust.
I think having a final 10-15 games against the dregs of the National Hockey League had a ton more to do with the Rangers record down the stretch than Zuccarello.

I don't think I've seen a Ranger more overrated by the fanbase than Zuccarello, seriously.

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:05 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
For all the raving on Hagelin's puck possession game, Zuccarello beats him in the dust.
You are literally the only person in this subforum that raves about puck possession game

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07-12-2013, 03:05 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Exactly, and numbers reported from KHL is net tax.

I did exaggerate a little and apologies for it. Zucc will definitely not get 30% in his pocket of what he makes in the KHL. You can't complain on living in Russia if you are a multi dollar millionere.

It's ridiculous to expect to be able to beat him up in arbitration. The NHL financially has become a by a wide margin b-tier league to the KHL.

Nice work Bettman!
I'll bet that the average salary of an NHL player is higher than that of a KHL player.

And spare me the dramatics. The NHL has first class accommodations, best medical trainers and staff, better airplanes, better equipment managers, massagers, stuff the KHL doesn't have.

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:12 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think having a final 10-15 games against the dregs of the National Hockey League had a ton more to do with the Rangers record down the stretch than Zuccarello.

I don't think I've seen a Ranger more overrated by the fanbase than Zuccarello, seriously.
Are we suppose to discount what he did then? The way he helped a team that was on the brink of looking on the outside before he was slotted in the lineup? Richards and Pyatt, while having abysmal seasons in terms of shot differentials did a complete 180 when Zuccarello was put on a line with them.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...3&sit=5v5close

Just take a look in CF% when together and teammate when apart. Notice how it's drastically higher when they are put together. This means that Zuccarello helps elevate the play of his linemates at a high level.

And he's not even remotely close to being the most overrated when the majority were sold on him being a fringe player when he went to Russia.

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07-12-2013, 03:12 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Exactly, and numbers reported from KHL is net tax.

I did exaggerate a little and apologies for it. Zucc will definitely not get 30% in his pocket of what he makes in the KHL. You can't complain on living in Russia if you are a multi dollar millionere.

It's ridiculous to expect to be able to beat him up in arbitration. The NHL financially has become a by a wide margin b-tier league to the KHL.

Nice work Bettman!
Average attendance for KHL games is about 6,000.

The Islanders attendance last season - last in the NHL, mind you - was over 13,000.

I could go on and on about this, but Ill just simply suggest that you stop trying to push this narrative that the KHL is some sort of financial beacon that the NHL should emulate, because its absurdly wrong.

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:15 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by KenGuru View Post
you dont win Stanley Cup with top 6 forwards like Hagelin, get real
Get real?

Did I mention anything regarding the Stanley Cup?

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Hagelin is 10X the player MZA is. Stop the nonsense.
Nope. No mention regarding the cup. Or even top-6 forwards.







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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
only because he PKs, otherwise they both bring similar impact at ES.

Hagelin PPG: 0.55
MZA PPG: 0.50


If Hagelin didn't play on the PK, he would still be superior to MZA. He's not a playmaker with great vision, but he creates so many scoring opportunities with his relentless forecheck. He does a wonderful job pursuing the puck and is a nightmare for dmen.

He's good enough with the puck to play in the top-6 and not look out of place. Although he doesn't have a great shot, he's a smart player and puts himself in good position. Ryan Callahan doesn't have a great shot or anything, but he consistently puts up points. Skill is something I value, but Hagelin, similar to Callahan, will regularly produce in the NHL with the tools he has.

MZA is a one-dimensional winger who doesn't do much to help his team win when he's not producing offensively. Hagelin has outproduced him AND does so much more that obviously goes unnoticed by guys like yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Zucc getting boned by management again I see.
Only the Zucc fanboys believe this is the case. Everyone else realizes he hasn't produced enough to warrant the money he's asking for.

Sather pays his players. Earn it and he'll open up his checkbook. What the **** has Zucc done to earn the money he's asking for? A couple dozen good games? A point every other game for a one-dimensional 'offensive' winger?

Really?

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:15 PM
  #165
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You are literally the only person in this subforum that raves about puck possession game
there are quite a few others on this board who I also discuss this with, but are more lurkers. ranger analytic blogs too.

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:28 PM
  #166
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I like Zucc's creativity and I think he opens up the ice pretty well, but at the end of the day I don't think he is anything more than a top 6 stop gap until a better option comes along in the future. He's like the winger version of Bozak/Christensen.

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07-12-2013, 03:36 PM
  #167
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It's amazing how short memories most people seem to have on this board. When Zucc returned from the KHL he was one of the most consistently praised players in the PGTs from that point on. But a few months later he is yet again "small, soft, and one-dimensional" and not worth keeping around.

I don't have the energy right now to yet again re-iterate the strengths of Mats' game which stretch far beyond his points, but Kershaw's and Ola's posts are pretty representative of my views. Of course one of the opinions seems to have been overlooked and the other has been discarded due to the reputation of the poster delivering it.

It is obvious that the impact of biases and heuristics is strongest in the off season, and if GM's aren't impervious to this effect, why should I expect more from forum posters?

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07-12-2013, 03:46 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
Get real?

Did I mention anything regarding the Stanley Cup?



Nope. No mention regarding the cup. Or even top-6 forwards.











If Hagelin didn't play on the PK, he would still be superior to MZA. He's not a playmaker with great vision, but he creates so many scoring opportunities with his relentless forecheck. He does a wonderful job pursuing the puck and is a nightmare for dmen.

He's good enough with the puck to play in the top-6 and not look out of place. Although he doesn't have a great shot, he's a smart player and puts himself in good position. Ryan Callahan doesn't have a great shot or anything, but he consistently puts up points. Skill is something I value, but Hagelin, similar to Callahan, will regularly produce in the NHL with the tools he has.

MZA is a one-dimensional winger who doesn't do much to help his team win when he's not producing offensively. Hagelin has outproduced him AND does so much more that obviously goes unnoticed by guys like yourself.




Only the Zucc fanboys believe this is the case. Everyone else realizes he hasn't produced enough to warrant the money he's asking for.

Sather pays his players. Earn it and he'll open up his checkbook. What the **** has Zucc done to earn the money he's asking for? A couple dozen good games? A point every other game for a one-dimensional 'offensive' winger?

Really?
but you're completely wrong. I believe it's been posted, but Zuccarello is so valuable because he does more than his point totals say so. He is by far the best puck possession player amongst forwards and has been for his Ranger stint. the rangers are probably drop to a middle of the pack possession team with Zuccarello away from the lineup, like they were last season.

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07-12-2013, 03:47 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Blue Blooded View Post
It's amazing how short memories most people seem to have on this board. When Zucc returned from the KHL he was one of the most consistently praised players in the PGTs from that point on. But a few months later he is yet again "small, soft, and one-dimensional" and not worth keeping around.

I don't have the energy right now to yet again re-iterate the strengths of Mats' game which stretch far beyond his points, but Kershaw's and Ola's posts are pretty representative of my views. Of course one of the opinions seems to have been overlooked and the other has been discarded due to the reputation of the poster delivering it.

It is obvious that the impact of biases and heuristics is strongest in the off season, and if GM's aren't impervious to this effect, why should I expect more from forum posters?
this.

Now zuccarello is a crap fringe player because he may be leaving the Rangers. when he was on the rangers, he could do no wrong.

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:51 PM
  #170
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Trade him.
Or sign him for $1.5M and play him.

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Old
07-12-2013, 03:55 PM
  #171
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Or sign him for $1.5M and play him.
This.

Some people are making this a hate thread I guess. But I'm sure most of us would like to see him retained for a price that makes sense

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07-12-2013, 04:02 PM
  #172
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i think the issue here is not that fans have a problem with zucc or that we dont realize he brings value to the team. The issue is you cant pay a player for a small sample size and/or what he could do in the future. We are not saying he should get the league minimum. But we are not going to pay him for more than we think he is worth. If the Zucc fanboys want to point to the bad contracts on the roster as to why it isnt a big deal to give Zucc x amount of dollars, thats all well and dandy but this is a business. Sather has done a fine job this summer and he will continue to.

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Old
07-12-2013, 04:05 PM
  #173
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Zucc will get 1.5-2 mill.

Perfectly fair for him, and tradeable if it doesn't work out.

He should get a chance to play, though. He was an improved player last season. I was down on him before last year but he showed me enough to warrant being on the team this year.

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07-12-2013, 04:17 PM
  #174
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Kershaw I respect your posts but you are wasting your time. The guy you are speaking with argued against Zooks all the time last season Before and After we signed him. Every time his arguments fell short based on Zooks play he moved the football and changed his argument. If Zooks scored 75 points playing 14 minutes a game on a 1.5 mill contract he still would not want him in my opinion. His argument might change but it would still be against Zooks.

Its a shame in my opinion. I do root for underdogs. I have a lot of respect for Zooks. Playing against some monsters in the NHL at his size. Never backing down from anyone. Being willing to take less money as a Ranger than playing elsewhere. Coming to a foriegn land to play at a young age and having to prove himself over and over again. Being as humble as can be in interviews. He is a great guy who seems to be well liked by his teammates. I admire the guy.

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07-12-2013, 04:25 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
i think the issue here is not that fans have a problem with zucc or that we dont realize he brings value to the team. The issue is you cant pay a player for a small sample size and/or what he could do in the future. We are not saying he should get the league minimum. But we are not going to pay him for more than we think he is worth. If the Zucc fanboys want to point to the bad contracts on the roster as to why it isnt a big deal to give Zucc x amount of dollars, thats all well and dandy but this is a business. Sather has done a fine job this summer and he will continue to.
it's a business, but you don't let go off your better players to make room for scrubs like Falk and Pouliot. If it indeed is down to the $$$$.

if indeed Sather decides not to re-sign zuccarello, his offseason is a failure considering he picked inferior players over him and decided to retain Richards' albatross contract. Big F.

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