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Is Chris Pronger's career a disappointment to you?

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Old
07-02-2013, 09:53 PM
  #51
Stephen
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's a disappointment if you thought he'd be the next generational defenseman, which is what he looked like in 2000. Nobody here is going to rank Pronger on the same level as Larry Robinson or even Denis Potvin, but that's what he looked like he would become in 2000.
I don't know, expecting Chris Pronger to be a literal Larry Robinson after his great 2000 season is kind of unreasonable in the first place, like taking PK Subban today and saying, "yep, nothing short of Denis Potvin will do."

In his late prime, Pronger was a cornerstone defenseman that led three different teams to the Stanley Cup finals, so he was doing some generatonal-esque things in the post lockout era.

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07-03-2013, 01:31 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Assuming he sticks with Ottawa and the Yashin trade still happens, imagine a Pronger/Chara pairing
Didn't it almost happen? Weren't the Bruins in the running for Pronger before he went to the Flyers? I seem to vaguely remember some rumours...

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07-03-2013, 02:01 AM
  #53
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't know, expecting Chris Pronger to be a literal Larry Robinson after his great 2000 season is kind of unreasonable in the first place, like taking PK Subban today and saying, "yep, nothing short of Denis Potvin will do."

In his late prime, Pronger was a cornerstone defenseman that led three different teams to the Stanley Cup finals, so he was doing some generatonal-esque things in the post lockout era.
It wasn't just his 2000 season. He was 3rd in Norris voting in 1997-98, 4th in Norris voting in 1998-99 despite missing 15 games. Then came 1999-00. Then he was a Norris favorite early on in 2000-01, before missing 31 games due to injury (and still got a handful of votes).

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect another generational defenseman to come along, and it certainly looked like Pronger was a good choice.

I think Pronger's injuries are probably the biggest reason that Lidstrom "faced relatively weak competition."

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07-03-2013, 04:15 PM
  #54
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He was a disappointment to the extent that he never ended up the next Larry Robinson, which is what he looked like early in his career. Injuries and inconsistency (which was not all due to injuries) really cut him back.
First name I think of as well. In fact, that was written all over him when he was young as being another Robinson. He just couldn't stay healthy though. Yeah, Potvin should have won more Norrises as well but he won three and genuinely got screwed out of a 4th in 1981. Pronger won once and was never "screwed" out of one but rather had the projection that he would have won more. The media hated him no doubt. Lidstrom was a 2nd team all-star in 2010, which was crazy. Pronger was better that year. But Lidstrom is a media fav and Pronger wasn't. Played better than Nieds in the 2007 playoffs but didnt win the Smythe. Again, Niedermayer was more of a safe choice than the wild Pronger.

He also just seemed to follow up a great season with an injury plagued one. He had trouble stringing together great seasons. While his contemporary, Lidstrom, rarely got injured and was better for longer.

Either way, Pronger will get into the HHOF the first chance he gets. Of that there is little doubt. But you can be a great player and still be asked "what if".

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07-03-2013, 05:16 PM
  #55
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His peak was not better than Lidstrom's.

That was easy.

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07-07-2013, 05:16 PM
  #56
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At his best which is:

1998 playoffs
entire 2000
entire 2001 when on the ice
entire 2006
entire 2007 when on the ice
entire 2010

He's better than Bourque, Coffey, Lidstrom, Stevens etc could ever dream of being

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07-07-2013, 08:19 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
At his best which is:

1998 playoffs
entire 2000
entire 2001 when on the ice
entire 2006
entire 2007 when on the ice
entire 2010

He's better than Bourque, Coffey, Lidstrom, Stevens etc could ever dream of being
Nope, this is such an egregious comment that it is bordering on the obscene. I think you are the one who is dreaming, old sport.

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07-08-2013, 01:04 PM
  #58
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I don't know, expecting Chris Pronger to be a literal Larry Robinson after his great 2000 season is kind of unreasonable in the first place, like taking PK Subban today and saying, "yep, nothing short of Denis Potvin will do."

In his late prime, Pronger was a cornerstone defenseman that led three different teams to the Stanley Cup finals, so he was doing some generatonal-esque things in the post lockout era.
Except no one has ever compared Subban to Potvin or anything close to him. People did figure Pronger would have a career similar to Robinson's though.

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Old
07-09-2013, 06:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
. Lidstrom was much less effective against larger guys.
Didn't watch the 1997 finals I see.

Speaking of Pronger...

Pronger for Shanahan is still an interesting trade. Many Blues fans were absolutely livid when it happen, and in some ways it cost Keenan his job. Yet in hindsight most fans would do the trade today.

But it's amusing when you look at the after effects of that trade. It got Detroit over the hump, at the expense of the Blues, and also eventually would lead to the Whalers/Canes franchise getting the Cup and another finals appearance. The Whalers/Canes went from Pronger - Shanahan - Primeau - Brind'Amour. Knowing the end result I assume everyone would still do that trade in that franchise.

I wouldn't call Pronger's career a disappointment. Being the #2, or #3, defenseman of your generation isn't any reason to be a disappointment.

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07-11-2013, 02:50 AM
  #60
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Absolutely not. Saying this is borderline ridiculous and reflects how under appreciated Defensemen are in general. First ballot Hall of Fame.

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07-11-2013, 03:31 AM
  #61
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His 2006 playoffs was one of the most dominant i've seen. 31 minutes per game average, 21 points in 24 games as a defenceman. Incredible, I loved watching him that year. He then played over 30 minutes per game for the Ducks the year after. And then played 29 per game for the Flyers three years later. Truly an incredible playoff force.

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07-12-2013, 05:38 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Redwingsfan84 View Post
Nope, this is such an egregious comment that it is bordering on the obscene. I think you are the one who is dreaming, old sport.
It the truth. Never at any point were those guys as dominant as Pronger was at his best

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07-12-2013, 06:16 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
At his best which is:

1998 playoffs
entire 2000
entire 2001 when on the ice
entire 2006
entire 2007 when on the ice
entire 2010

He's better than Bourque, Coffey, Lidstrom, Stevens etc could ever dream of being
Your bias knows no limits... u should stick to NHL-talk with the other trolls instead of the history part...

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07-12-2013, 05:00 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
With the exception of Bobby Orr, I feel that Pronger is in the discussion as the most physically gifted defenseman of all-time. I mean, its kind of ridiculous when you start to break it down: huge, could skate, tremendous hockey IQ, best first pass of his era
No. Not over guys like Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Zubov, Gonchar. Rafalski probably is the guy I'd go with. If you stretch it out a few years, Brian Leetch is in the mix and Pronger isn't anywhere near Leetch.

Quote:
100 mph slapshot, poised with the puck, hits, blocks shots, shuts down top forwards, quarterbacks powerplays, mean as hell, insanely competitive. I don't if you could build a more complete defenseman if you tried.
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I would take Pronger, in the best game of his career, over Lidstrom. I think he was the best defenseman I've ever seen in his own zone
Pronger was very good defensively, and in his prime was always among the best defensively... but I don't know that I would rate him as "best ever". Honestly, even at his best defensively I don't think he ever played the level of defensive game Konstantinov did, although Konstantinov obviously didn't have Pronger's offensive aptitude.

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and I think he made an impact all over the ice in a way that Lidstrom didn't.
Lidstrom is arguably the best defensive defenseman ever, and he was the most effective offensive defenseman of his era (with only Sergei Zubov coming even close per-game). You're basically saying "I prefer physical defensemen." So as an aside, what's your take on Blake vs. Niedermayer?

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But he didn't do that in a consistent manner, the way Lidstrom did (who was one of the best of all-time at always being at or near top form).
So you're saying that you think Lidstrom was always playing his at/near his best possible game, but Pronger usually wasn't? So the question; what makes you think Pronger's best game is better than Lidstrom's best game? Nothing but conjecture. It's basically the equivalent of saying "John Tavares would have won the Art Ross if he played on a line with Martin St. Louis".

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That's where, IMO, Pronger is a bit of disappointment. Injuries, playoff meltdowns early in his career, and then taking it easy in regular seasons later in his career seem to have kept him from putting together an all-time type 15-to-20 year run. For all he did do, I feel its a disappointment that he did not have four or five Norrises, and is not in the conversation as fourth-to-tenth best D of all-time.

Thoughts?
He should have three; 2000, 2004, and 2007. And he's the #14 defenseman (at least on my list) of all-time, right behind Gadsby and just above former teammate Al MacInnis.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Largely agree.

There is a lot to say about consistency, and for that reason, healthy Pronger or not, Nicklas Lidstrom was going to go down as the best defenseman of the era.
Despite the Hart trophy Pronger won, and the impression that (in that season) Pronger had the higher peak (both Pronger and Lidstrom had multiple seasons better than Pronger's 2000), Lidstrom was consistently the better player more often. Pronger's nationality and playing style don't change that fact.

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But at his best... he showed what a Hart-level defenseman truly was, and we haven't seen that since Bourque.
Lidstrom's 2002 season was better than any year by Pronger.

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Originally Posted by Metalcommand View Post
At his peak and prime Pronger is the best modern defenseman, better than Lidström. No-one i'd rather take as my 1D for a playoff run. Beastly physical, total ******* mean streak, magnificent puck mover, imposing all over the ice. Ruthless winner. No mercy. Mind games.

All hail Pronger! My favourite player all time.
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Originally Posted by Guardian452 View Post
To call someone who was an elite player for over 10 NHL seasons a disappointment is like calling New York city a small town. Other than Lidstrom & Neidermeyer, can you list another defenseman with better credentials or who was a dominant as Pronger over the past 20 years?
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I agree with a lot of what you said - particularly Pronger on Selanne, which in 2006, looked like some Olympic retribution on Pronger's part when he really abused the guy in the Conference Finals - but I think Lidstrom was just fine against larger players. Once Lidstrom matured a little and stopped trying to force the offense (which was probably just him trying to emulate Coffey), the only player that I can recall ever really having his number was Peter Forsberg. But when your teammates are collecting seven Selkes and a Norris in addition to your own large collection, the system helps cover for any mistakes or weaknesses.
Pronger with the Blues and Ducks wasn't short of help either; guys like Drake, Demitra, McDonald, Pahlsson, etc. up front and MacInnis, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, etc. on the blueline.

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In the era, Niedermayer probably had the best tools.
Really? Seriously?

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Disappointment may be too strong of a word for him and Pronger, given the amount of team success that followed them, but I can't say that I ever saw that same 2003 playoff Niedermayer before or after that Spring. You know, the quality Niedermayer that people falsely like to project across his entire career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
At his best which is:

1998 playoffs
entire 2000
entire 2001 when on the ice
entire 2006
entire 2007 when on the ice
entire 2010

He's better than Bourque, Coffey, Lidstrom, Stevens etc could ever dream of being
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
It the truth. Never at any point were those guys as dominant as Pronger was at his best


Just no. I know I think highly of Wings players and some consider me a homer... but at least I make a valid case when I make any kind of claim.

What you said is basically like saying "Sergei Fedorov at his best is better than Beliveau, Mikita, Sakic, or Messier could ever dream of being".

Consider that statement. Consider how ridiculous it sounds. You just said that, but about Pronger instead of Fedorov.

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07-12-2013, 05:20 PM
  #65
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He was a true warrior, that made an iffy move by asking to be moved, and got is career finished by a freak accident, not disapointed but thats my opinion

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07-12-2013, 05:32 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No. Not over guys like Lidstrom, Niedermayer, Rafalski, Zubov, Gonchar. Rafalski probably is the guy I'd go with. If you stretch it out a few years, Brian Leetch is in the mix and Pronger isn't anywhere near Leetch.





Pronger was very good defensively, and in his prime was always among the best defensively... but I don't know that I would rate him as "best ever". Honestly, even at his best defensively I don't think he ever played the level of defensive game Konstantinov did, although Konstantinov obviously didn't have Pronger's offensive aptitude.



Lidstrom is arguably the best defensive defenseman ever, and he was the most effective offensive defenseman of his era (with only Sergei Zubov coming even close per-game). You're basically saying "I prefer physical defensemen." So as an aside, what's your take on Blake vs. Niedermayer?



So you're saying that you think Lidstrom was always playing his at/near his best possible game, but Pronger usually wasn't? So the question; what makes you think Pronger's best game is better than Lidstrom's best game? Nothing but conjecture. It's basically the equivalent of saying "John Tavares would have won the Art Ross if he played on a line with Martin St. Louis".



He should have three; 2000, 2004, and 2007. And he's the #14 defenseman (at least on my list) of all-time, right behind Gadsby and just above former teammate Al MacInnis.



Despite the Hart trophy Pronger won, and the impression that (in that season) Pronger had the higher peak (both Pronger and Lidstrom had multiple seasons better than Pronger's 2000), Lidstrom was consistently the better player more often. Pronger's nationality and playing style don't change that fact.



Lidstrom's 2002 season was better than any year by Pronger.







Pronger with the Blues and Ducks wasn't short of help either; guys like Drake, Demitra, McDonald, Pahlsson, etc. up front and MacInnis, Niedermayer, Beauchemin, etc. on the blueline.



Really? Seriously?








Just no. I know I think highly of Wings players and some consider me a homer... but at least I make a valid case when I make any kind of claim.

What you said is basically like saying "Sergei Fedorov at his best is better than Beliveau, Mikita, Sakic, or Messier could ever dream of being".

Consider that statement. Consider how ridiculous it sounds. You just said that, but about Pronger instead of Fedorov.
Blah blah blah Red Wings are so great blah bla blah

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Old
07-12-2013, 05:41 PM
  #67
pdd
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Blah blah blah Red Wings are so great blah bla blah
This is possibly your most insightful post yet.

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07-12-2013, 05:44 PM
  #68
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Just no. I know I think highly of Wings players and some consider me a homer... but at least I make a valid case when I make any kind of claim.
I think you're wrong on that one.



Anyways do you really think that Rafalski is the most physically gifted defenseman since Orr???

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07-12-2013, 05:46 PM
  #69
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I think Pronger had a great career, was one of the few dominant players of his generation, and is a first ballot hall of famer, so I can't consider his career a disappointment.

Between Niedermayer, Pronger, and Lidstrom ... I'm embarrassed (because I have a very healthy dislike for him) to say I'd draft ...

1) Pronger
2) Lidstrom
3) Niedermayer


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07-12-2013, 05:58 PM
  #70
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How could anyone consider Chris Pronger's career a let down?

The man was a beast, won a Stanley Cup and appeared in 3 Finals with three different teams!

He's no Lidstrom but who is? Nik Lidstrom is the best dman to have ever played the game

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07-12-2013, 05:59 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
How could anyone consider Chris Pronger's career a let down?

The man was a beast, won a Stanley Cup and appeared in 3 Finals with three different teams!

He's no Lidstrom but who is? Nik Lidstrom is the best dman to have ever played the game
Oh boy here we go..... time to get some popcorn.

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07-12-2013, 06:25 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
How could anyone consider Chris Pronger's career a let down?

The man was a beast, won a Stanley Cup and appeared in 3 Finals with three different teams!

He's no Lidstrom but who is? Nik Lidstrom is the best dman to have ever played the game
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Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
Oh boy here we go..... time to get some popcorn.
There is actually an argument behind that idea based on longevity, excellence, defensive play and playoffs but that's not important for this thread as Pronger is no Lidstrom or even a serious threat as a top 10 guy of all time either. Maybe if he hadn't been injured and had more consistency but he didn't.

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07-12-2013, 06:58 PM
  #73
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There is actually an argument behind that idea based on longevity, excellence, defensive play and playoffs but that's not important for this thread as Pronger is no Lidstrom or even a serious threat as a top 10 guy of all time either. Maybe if he hadn't been injured and had more consistency but he didn't.
Which was the actual point of the thread. . . not fellating the mighty Red Wings again.

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07-12-2013, 07:56 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Which was the actual point of the thread. . . not fellating the mighty Red Wings again.
The wings bias and anti-bias should be kept out of this thread. There should be a way to answer yes or no to this question without dragging Lidström, Rafalski or the Red Wings into this...

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07-12-2013, 09:02 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Which was the actual point of the thread. . . not fellating the mighty Red Wings again.
Not sure on that 2nd part, as it doesn't apply to me, or anyone here for that matter.

Pronger wasn't a disappointment in the lack of consistency or heck even injuries, this happens to most players.

Even coming out of junior he wasn't an Orr or Potvin type of guy.

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