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Old
07-12-2013, 05:09 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
Look... Hasek is my fave goalie of all time. But what you need to realize is that despite what he looked like he was not in "desperation mode". The guy thought like a hockey puck. Most goalies are taught either to i) be in solid position covering as much net and letting the reflexes to the rest, or if their coach was a little more enlightened to ii) cut down angles so the shooter sees less of the net.

Hasek didn't care what the shooter could see. He cared *what the puck could see*.
Classic example: Standard hybrid style = slide across the net with pad out and glove above pad... on one knee with body upright.
Hasek style (now adopted/adapted by many) = slide accross with your leg extended, but deliberately fall forward with your upper body... get your glove as close to the puck as possible.
WHY? The player can now see way more of the net, but the puck can only go two places, along the ice into the pad or into his glove.

My point, if I am making one, is that Hasak was a master of angles, a master of anticipation and a visionary in the way that he viewed the probabilities of making a save.

In contrast, Cujo, at that same time was a desperation goalie because his timing and angles were poor (but his anticipation and reflexes covered for it). If the puck was passed quickly to the left side of the net, you could almost be 100% sure that Cujo would overcommit, get himself leaning way onto his left and the puck would go low stickside on the right. (I'm sure many would remember the Cujo "lean")
i understand what your getting at that style and positioning are big indicators of a goalies play, but what i'm getting at is dubnyk, for all his faults, stopped the vast majority of pucks that came his way. now, what i'm also saying is that i could not care less how those shots were stopped just that they were. dubnyk could do it standing on his head wearing a dress for all i care.

the problem was that dubnyk was forced to make way too many unneccesary saves last season, and that was a product of extremely ineffectual defense in front of him. that is by far a much bigger issue with this team than goaltending. dubnyk played outstanding last season relative to the defense he had playing in front of him, and he should be given every opportunity to repeat that this season with a (hopefully) much better defense in front of him.

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07-12-2013, 06:16 PM
  #52
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macT's point of view is that Dubnyk needs to be better

I agree with MacT

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07-12-2013, 07:09 PM
  #53
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I don't know if there is a full video of this moment but I remember a Blue Jacket and Oilers game from this year and I think it was on home ice for the Oilers. Bobrovsky may have just started his steller run or this may of been the start of it.
Both teams made it to the shootout and before it started, the camera captured both goaltenders right before they went into the net.

I remember distinctly when the camera shown Bobrovsky, he was off on his own little corner, pumping himself up, completely focused on the task at hand, just looking at him I could see he will not let a puck through, he had a silent determination of winning the game. You can just feel it from him.

Then the camera cuts over to Dubnyk, where he nonchalantly was leaning on the boards talking casually with a teammate, honestly looking like he doesn't really give crap about the shootout. He got the team a point, guess his work is done.

I knew that instant that we would lose that game.

And we did...

Bobrovsky showed me what a winning goaltender looks like and was not surprised he won the Vezina.
If Dubnyk even had half of Bobrovsky fighting spirit I probably would have more confidence in him. But he doesn't.
Dubnyk is just going through the motions. Thats the impression I get with him. I hope to hell Lababera steals the starting job from him. From his interviews, he at least seems genuine in actually wanting to play here.

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07-12-2013, 07:14 PM
  #54
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great job as usual!!! thanks for your efforts, unreal editing work!

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07-12-2013, 07:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by OilCountry84 View Post


Just seen your lovely post now.

First off, get over yourself. To question my judgement on a save that is definitely worthy of being considered a hightlight is laughable (tsn, sportsnet, etc all seemed to agree that it was indeed a highlight as well at the time). Especially in a DEVAN DUBNYK HIGHLIGHT VID. Highlight videos don't discard certain plays because of what lead up to that highlight occuring.
Secondly, it was shown 3 times in the video, not 5. My 3 year old nephew can recognize the difference between 3 and 5. With your superior intellect, this should've been easy to notice.
Thirdly, why did you even push play? Your hate for Dubey is enjoyable to read.
I would say that when theres a reaction of indignation like this its because you see my point, you'rre frustrated with it, and hoped nobody would notice it and bring it up.

Really if including that save multiple times is the best moments then maybe the project didn't have enough credible material for the compilation. It ends up being less than convincing for reasons I expressed.

As far as the bolded brief hilites don't often do hockey plays justice. This particularly in Canada is inexcusable. If they're going to show a hockey play show it in its entirety.
I often find that the replays don't do justice to the plays that actually occurred by limiting preceding lead up. For Canadian news broadcasters to do this so often with hockey is silly and especially given how much time they waste showing other sports and plays. How many times for instance have we seen long baseball hilites of coaches arguing with umps, 17 different plays in a baseball game etc.
To your credit your hilite was honest, included was some preceding frame of reference which you could've edited out. Thanks for not doing that.

Anyway I've laid out my rationale, you yours, we won't agree and thats OK.

I do wish you, and other young fans had seen better Oiler goalies in their prime so that you'd have more to compare and contrast with. For many of us vet Oiler fans Dubs ain't that much. Spoiled by that? Yeah, I guess so.


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07-12-2013, 07:51 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MettleOiler View Post
I don't know if there is a full video of this moment but I remember a Blue Jacket and Oilers game from this year and I think it was on home ice for the Oilers. Bobrovsky may have just started his steller run or this may of been the start of it.
Both teams made it to the shootout and before it started, the camera captured both goaltenders right before they went into the net.

I remember distinctly when the camera shown Bobrovsky, he was off on his own little corner, pumping himself up, completely focused on the task at hand, just looking at him I could see he will not let a puck through, he had a silent determination of winning the game. You can just feel it from him.

Then the camera cuts over to Dubnyk, where he nonchalantly was leaning on the boards talking casually with a teammate, honestly looking like he doesn't really give crap about the shootout. He got the team a point, guess his work is done.

I knew that instant that we would lose that game.

And we did...

Bobrovsky showed me what a winning goaltender looks like and was not surprised he won the Vezina.
If Dubnyk even had half of Bobrovsky fighting spirit I probably would have more confidence in him. But he doesn't.
Dubnyk is just going through the motions. Thats the impression I get with him. I hope to hell Lababera steals the starting job from him. From his interviews, he at least seems genuine in actually wanting to play here.

Well, thanks for sharing your feels on the matter. Very enlightening. I literally cannot argue with what you've just written.

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07-12-2013, 08:17 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I do wish you, and other young fans had seen better Oiler goalies in their prime so that you'd have more to compare and contrast with. For many of us vet Oiler fans Dubs ain't that much. Spoiled by that? Yeah, I guess so.
I've been watching the Oil since the glory days and Dubnyk is fine. Is he as good in his time as Ranford, Cujo and Moog were in theirs? No, but those guys were all top 5 goalies, whereas Dubnyk is top 10-15. Good enough to win with a good team, but not good enough to carry the entire club on his shoulders. Anyway, let's be real and not let nostalgia blind us to certain truths, namely that if you put any of our past great goalies in the NHL today, they'd get LIT UP. The game and goaltending in particular has evolved so much since their time, I can't even stand to watch old Oilers games in the NHL vault.

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07-12-2013, 09:34 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by NAF View Post
I've been watching the Oil since the glory days and Dubnyk is fine. Is he as good in his time as Ranford, Cujo and Moog were in theirs? No, but those guys were all top 5 goalies, whereas Dubnyk is top 10-15. Good enough to win with a good team, but not good enough to carry the entire club on his shoulders. Anyway, let's be real and not let nostalgia blind us to certain truths, namely that if you put any of our past great goalies in the NHL today, they'd get LIT UP. The game and goaltending in particular has evolved so much since their time, I can't even stand to watch old Oilers games in the NHL vault.
Probably because I prefer players that can think the game well a guy Roli is light years better imo as well. Not just for his between the pipes work but ability to handle, headman the puck, get in peoples heads, milk a penalty here or there, milk a whistle here or there. Guy used every tactic, edge, available to him and went out looking for more.
Dubs game in comparison contains no similar wrinkles, no intangibles. I don't think that one can look at any one facet in isolation.

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07-12-2013, 10:12 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Pressure View Post
Right, how can we value the big saves he made too? You can't. Not a fan of stats when looking at goalies, unless of course the goalie is absolutely carrying a team such as Bob was in CBJ last year.

One thing I know, and his biggest knock is the weak goals he lets in when we needed him most. Why else would fans be so soured on Dubnyk? It's not like we hate him because he's tall, but his inability to come up big when we needed him the most.

Explains why confidence in him is shaken from management, Mac T's comments and the fact that Khabby was playing more games than he should have until he got injured over the past few years.

Would you want him in a game 7 playoffs? he's just not mentally capable. This is his make or break year, and if not, we're chasing a number one next summer.
He stops 92% of the shots he faces. He lets 8% of all shots he faces by. Just because you perceive that they come at bad times doesn't make him a bad goalie. Find me the stat that says when the score is 3-2 Dubnyk turns into a ****** goalie. Better yet, define what you mean by "weak goals when we needed him most" and show us the numbers that support what your saying. Till then it's all just supposition.

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07-12-2013, 10:30 PM
  #60
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I would say that when theres a reaction of indignation like this its because you see my point, you'rre frustrated with it, and hoped nobody would notice it and bring it up.

Really if including that save multiple times is the best moments then maybe the project didn't have enough credible material for the compilation. It ends up being less than convincing for reasons I expressed.

As far as the bolded brief hilites don't often do hockey plays justice. This particularly in Canada is inexcusable. If they're going to show a hockey play show it in its entirety.
I often find that the replays don't do justice to the plays that actually occurred by limiting preceding lead up. For Canadian news broadcasters to do this so often with hockey is silly and especially given how much time they waste showing other sports and plays. How many times for instance have we seen long baseball hilites of coaches arguing with umps, 17 different plays in a baseball game etc.
To your credit your hilite was honest, included was some preceding frame of reference which you could've edited out. Thanks for not doing that.

Anyway I've laid out my rationale, you yours, we won't agree and thats OK.

I do wish you, and other young fans had seen better Oiler goalies in their prime so that you'd have more to compare and contrast with. For many of us vet Oiler fans Dubs ain't that much. Spoiled by that? Yeah, I guess so.
Becoming defensive is usually a case of being attacked. You made a comment that questioned my judgement that came across obnoxious and condescending. Then you go on to tell me that it's because I agree with you. Which again comes off as obnoxious.
I haven't once revealed my stance on Dubnyk's role as our starter. I simply made a video that featured him because fellow Oiler fans requested it.
If you had experience in making videos, the first thing you would recognize and note would be that the visual has to mesh and flow with the sound. I needed a slow mo shot at that particular part in the video, and prior to that I wanted to maintain the live commentary because it was a great reaction. It's sad I even have to defend why I chose to do what I did. I also could have made the video 10 minutes but chose a certain piece of music that only lasted a certain amount of time. It has nothing to do with lack of footage on Dubnyk's end.
Lastly, do you actually think that because younger Oiler fans haven't witnessed the glory day tenders that they are unable to recognize the difference between elite, average, and piss poor? I hope I misinterpreted that.

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07-12-2013, 10:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by OilCountry84 View Post
Becoming defensive is usually a case of being attacked. You made a comment that questioned my judgement that came across obnoxious and condescending.
Becoming defensive is a response to thinking you were attacked. You took the worst possible interpretation of what I stated and choose to be offended.

Quote:
Then you go on to tell me that it's because I agree with you. Which again comes off as obnoxious.
I'm saying for some reason the comment hit thus your heated reaction.

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I haven't once revealed my stance on Dubnyk's role as our starter. I simply made a video that featured him because fellow Oiler fans requested it.
Fair enough. I hadn't realized when this board became a place where I was expected to clap like a seal in response to the latest hilite reel.


Quote:
It's sad I even have to defend why I chose to do what I did.
You choose to be defensive. Another response could be "yeah, you know what, that was kind of weak, I could've used a better hilite to demonstrate Dubnyks great plays. Really I wouldn't have likely responded had I not found it odd you made that one bonehead Dubnyk play into the showcase.

Quote:
I also could have made the video 10 minutes but chose a certain piece of music that only lasted a certain amount of time. It has nothing to do with lack of footage on Dubnyk's end.
Well, thanks for keeping it to two minutes anyway.

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Lastly, do you actually think that because younger Oiler fans haven't witnessed the glory day tenders that they are unable to recognize the difference between elite, average, and piss poor? I hope I misinterpreted that.
Pretty sure I phrased that in terms of perspective. What great Oiler goalies are young fans comparing Dubnyk to?
People would feel differently, and I think teammates might as well, if they could have more confidence in the clubs goaltending.

When I see Dubs in your video wildly chasing an obvious backboards bounce shot that I've seen him do so often I'm tempted to be reminded why I have little faith in his ability to think the game.
My own thought would be a hilite reel of a player ought to attempt to instill a demonstration of the merit of that player. Guess not.

Probably not close to being your best work.


Last edited by Replacement: 07-12-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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Old
07-12-2013, 11:57 PM
  #62
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The thing is, there is no game I'm confident we're going to win or that Dubnyk is going to steal BECAUSE of Dubnyk. How do you think the players feel?

Really wish we traded for Schneider or Luongo.

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07-13-2013, 09:34 AM
  #63
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Becoming defensive is usually a case of being attacked. You made a comment that questioned my judgement that came across obnoxious and condescending. Then you go on to tell me that it's because I agree with you. Which again comes off as obnoxious.
I haven't once revealed my stance on Dubnyk's role as our starter. I simply made a video that featured him because fellow Oiler fans requested it.
If you had experience in making videos, the first thing you would recognize and note would be that the visual has to mesh and flow with the sound. I needed a slow mo shot at that particular part in the video, and prior to that I wanted to maintain the live commentary because it was a great reaction. It's sad I even have to defend why I chose to do what I did. I also could have made the video 10 minutes but chose a certain piece of music that only lasted a certain amount of time. It has nothing to do with lack of footage on Dubnyk's end.
Lastly, do you actually think that because younger Oiler fans haven't witnessed the glory day tenders that they are unable to recognize the difference between elite, average, and piss poor? I hope I misinterpreted that.
I thought you did a great job, man. Hilight reels are always fun, keep them coming.

There's plenty of threads to discuss the merit of Dubnyk's abilities, don't get discouraged by the detractors. Hope there's more spotlights coming. It's a good way to pass the time before the season starts.

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07-13-2013, 09:39 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by B A T M A N View Post
The thing is, there is no game I'm confident we're going to win or that Dubnyk is going to steal BECAUSE of Dubnyk. How do you think the players feel?

Really wish we traded for Schneider or Luongo.
Wait, you don't think Dubnyk kept the Oilers in games they had no business being in last year??

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07-13-2013, 09:56 AM
  #65
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I believe Dubnyk will be fine this season. Even with our MARGINALLY upgraded defence I suspect we will "see him good" a lot more frequently (including the skeptics).

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07-13-2013, 10:19 AM
  #66
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Wait, you don't think Dubnyk kept the Oilers in games they had no business being in last year??
Yes, he did. You don't think he let in numerous soft goals that took the team out of games that they should have been in??

Just saying the bad didn't outweigh the good.

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I believe Dubnyk will be fine this season. Even with our MARGINALLY upgraded defence I suspect we will "see him good" a lot more frequently (including the skeptics).
I sure hope you are right. The proof is in how he plays. If the Oilers make the playoffs with Doobie as the undisputed #1, that's proof enough.

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07-13-2013, 10:36 AM
  #67
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Just saying the bad didn't outweigh the good.
Given your many, many anti-Dubnyk postings, I suspect this is probably a typo, but it's refreshing to see you finally get something right, if only by accident.

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07-13-2013, 11:00 AM
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i understand what your getting at that style and positioning are big indicators of a goalies play, but what i'm getting at is dubnyk, for all his faults, stopped the vast majority of pucks that came his way. now, what i'm also saying is that i could not care less how those shots were stopped just that they were. dubnyk could do it standing on his head wearing a dress for all i care.

the problem was that dubnyk was forced to make way too many unneccesary saves last season, and that was a product of extremely ineffectual defense in front of him. that is by far a much bigger issue with this team than goaltending. dubnyk played outstanding last season relative to the defense he had playing in front of him, and he should be given every opportunity to repeat that this season with a (hopefully) much better defense in front of him.
I agree with everything that you wrote (to a degree).

My only point of departure is that technique does matter to the degree that it mpacts your ability to also make the *next* save.

You say Dubby was forced to make too many second saves. I agree with that, but would also say his technique (poor rebound control) also contributed to the problem.

He's a good goalie with things to work on. I actually think he has >.920 potential, nut at the moment there are several 915 guys I would take ahead of him.

It's an important stat, but not the be all end all.

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07-13-2013, 11:03 AM
  #69
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Probably because I prefer players that can think the game well a guy Roli is light years better imo as well. Not just for his between the pipes work but ability to handle, headman the puck, get in peoples heads, milk a penalty here or there, milk a whistle here or there. Guy used every tactic, edge, available to him and went out looking for more.
Dubs game in comparison contains no similar wrinkles, no intangibles. I don't think that one can look at any one facet in isolation.
In short: compete level

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07-13-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by gqmixmaster View Post
My Thoughts On Devan Dubnyk:


He is Tommy Salo

When we finally trade Dubnyk, it should be done when he is still good so we can get more than Gilbert + a pick back.
Interesting parallel! I can sorta see it. But Salo was a very solid goaltender who we all witnessed lose his mental game (due it was speculated to losing his off ice mojo).

Where cujo was a riverboat gambler, Salo was (in those 2-3 seasons where he came into his own) much more consistent and efficient. Cujo was flashier but created more work for himself.

Anyway, back on topic. Dubnyk can be betters than Salo once he rounds off his game and finds his mental game (which is on the way IMO)

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07-13-2013, 11:18 AM
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In short: compete level
Not always there either. He's a strange goalie and while sometimes he does show that compete level another aspect is getting rattled, frustrated and instance where it seems like he gives up. Several times in his career he's given up multiple goals in a short period of time and gets pulled. Happens to a lot of goalies rarely. Seems to happen to Dubs more often.

Great posts in the thread btw.

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07-13-2013, 11:27 AM
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Interesting parallel! I can sorta see it. But Salo was a very solid goaltender who we all witnessed lose his mental game (due it was speculated to losing his off ice mojo).

Where cujo was a riverboat gambler, Salo was (in those 2-3 seasons where he came into his own) much more consistent and efficient. Cujo was flashier but created more work for himself.

Anyway, back on topic. Dubnyk can be betters than Salo once he rounds off his game and finds his mental game (which is on the way IMO)
This one I disagree with. He's 26. This is what we got and the tendencies; losing concentration, losing his set position and standing up, and giving up bad goals where he is clearly not ready will continue. This is an aspect of his game that was being scouted and reported on since his Junior days.

My overall impression of Dubnyk is that this is a goalie that has recieved top notch instruction all his life and that he's a reasonable student. Thus him using the modified butterfly and having some very sound tecnnique. My concern is that his weakness has always been in situations where he needs to think the game instead of rely on rote mechanics and size. When he's forced into quick decision mode for instance whether to pursue a loose puck, where to play it, or one on one chess match he's outmatched.
Saw a game last year where Bertuzzi beat Dubnyk for fun. Got two goals by him but in neither was Dubs even close to making the stop. Bert just blew them by him. I do find that against the better goal scorers Dubs doesn't fare too well. I think he loses the battle of wits.

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07-13-2013, 11:42 AM
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I thought you did a great job, man. Hilight reels are always fun, keep them coming.

There's plenty of threads to discuss the merit of Dubnyk's abilities, don't get discouraged by the detractors. Hope there's more spotlights coming. It's a good way to pass the time before the season starts.
Not the way this board works and you know it. Possibly due to the search function being a bit wonky here people discuss merits of the player and good and bad in whatever front page topical thread that features the name of the player.

Or in the case of Gagner its of course necessary to discuss him in every thread..

To suggest its not accepted practice here to discuss everything about player in a players thread is just inaccurate in terms of actual practice.

If I need to be clear and perhaps I should do that the OP obviously has technical skill in making the hilite reels. Not my cup of tea though is the accepted editorial work. The OP uses techniques that seem commonly used. For instance matching hilites to music instead of music to hilites, or just emphasizing the music timing over the hilites. For instance the first minute of the reel is entirely predicated on the musical accompaniment and with the first 50 secs of a Dubnyk hilite reel featuring zero Dubnyk saves. The frames stopping in each case before we see what happens on the play. Again this clearly predicated on the musical selection used.
Then the aforementioned bad Dubnyk play that gets featured multiple times. Just questionable editorial choice in that instance in my view.

Hey I'm too predisposed to analytical sometimes. Especially when it comes to documentary, video, especially, and much of this has zero reflection on player worth. Hilite reels are rarely indicative of player. They are instead often outlier instances of ability and success. For instance I'm sure somebody could compile a Mike Brown goal scoring thread, and somebody already did compile a Ben Eager goal scoring thread, but effectively they end up being fictitious acts that suggest something other than what the player actually is. In honesty I deplore hilite reels for that reason. tbh I was a bit triggered as I dislike skewed interpretations as much as a Michael Moore movie.

My apologies to the OP as I could've approached this with more tact. As we know I can be an ass sometimes. So its fair for me to take responsibility for that and something I'm working on here. I'm only 9% improved at the moment. Work in progress. Buddha, shine a light or something..


Last edited by Replacement: 07-13-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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07-13-2013, 11:52 AM
  #74
Hall2Nuge2Ebs
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Dubnyk is a good goalie but he seems to let in a softy every game. That's my biggest pet peeve with the guy

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07-13-2013, 12:58 PM
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blackwater
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucks_oil View Post
I agree with everything that you wrote (to a degree).

My only point of departure is that technique does matter to the degree that it mpacts your ability to also make the *next* save.

You say Dubby was forced to make too many second saves. I agree with that, but would also say his technique (poor rebound control) also contributed to the problem.

He's a good goalie with things to work on. I actually think he has >.920 potential, nut at the moment there are several 915 guys I would take ahead of him.

It's an important stat, but not the be all end all.
Fair enough, I do agree that his rebound control needs some work, but I just don't think the oilers should be giving up on dubnyk just yet. He's still relatively young and inexpensive for a starter let's see how he performs with even an average D corps in front of him first. Dubnyk has earned that right in my opinion

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