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What Jokerit joing the KHL means for Sweden.

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Old
07-11-2013, 10:09 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Based on what Göran Stubb (head of CSS European division) recently (YLE radio interview) said about the KHL teams completely wilting nearly all other club hockey activity in Latvia, Kazakhstan and Belarus, I'd say you Swedes are better off not having a KHL team.
As self-proclaimed Kazakh hockey expert, I call bs on Kazakh part of this statement. Kazakh league is in it's best shape, ever despite the fact it has Barys in KHL and two more clubs in VHL. Kazakhstan was strictly one-city country, now hockey teams and arenas are popping up everywhere.

Also a good argument can be made about Latvia's poor economy being to blame for our regional hockey. About Belarus I don't have enough knowledge, but basically without any arguments behind the CSS dude's opinion it's hard to see where he comes from.

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07-12-2013, 12:29 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
As self-proclaimed Kazakh hockey expert, I call bs on Kazakh part of this statement. Kazakh league is in it's best shape, ever despite the fact it has Barys in KHL and two more clubs in VHL. Kazakhstan was strictly one-city country, now hockey teams and arenas are popping up everywhere.

Also a good argument can be made about Latvia's poor economy being to blame for our regional hockey. About Belarus I don't have enough knowledge, but basically without any arguments behind the CSS dude's opinion it's hard to see where he comes from.
Try googling his name, he's got more hockey credentials than anyone on this site will ever have. Though it has to be clarified, from his job perspective, since scouting for potential NHL players is his job, it's obvious there isn't much to scout in those countries.

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07-12-2013, 01:35 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Try googling his name, he's got more hockey credentials than anyone on this site will ever have. Though it has to be clarified, from his job perspective, since scouting for potential NHL players is his job, it's obvious there isn't much to scout in those countries.
He can be Jesus himself, but I would love to hear why he thinks, KHL ruined hockey in these three countries he named. Sounds like a classic case of "I didn't read the actual book, but of course I have a strong opinion about it".

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07-12-2013, 04:12 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
He can be Jesus himself, but I would love to hear why he thinks, KHL ruined hockey in these three countries he named. Sounds like a classic case of "I didn't read the actual book, but of course I have a strong opinion about it".
Do you realise that you just described that league perfectly? Also meaning no explanation needed

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07-12-2013, 04:51 AM
  #80
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You mean like a couple of years ago when they set the record for lowest attendance in HockeyAllsvenskan, 87 people?
To be fair they do have a successfull bandy team.

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07-12-2013, 05:43 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Based on what Göran Stubb (head of CSS European division) recently (YLE radio interview) said about the KHL teams completely wilting nearly all other club hockey activity in Latvia, Kazakhstan and Belarus, I'd say you Swedes are better off not having a KHL team.
And what did that club avtivity do for us before KHL? Now we are makng more high-end prospects than ever since we regained independence.We are just too small of a country to have our own professional league.

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07-12-2013, 08:45 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
He can be Jesus himself, but I would love to hear why he thinks, KHL ruined hockey in these three countries he named. Sounds like a classic case of "I didn't read the actual book, but of course I have a strong opinion about it".
Latvia and Belarus fighting to avoid relegation at Worlds, Kazakhstan a jojo team.

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07-12-2013, 10:30 AM
  #83
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There's your problem. You somehow have missed how the sport culture work in Europe and specifically in Sweden compared to North America. Which blows my mind a bit since you are Swedish. Your AHL/NHL comparison does not translate to us, at all. except for a very few.

We are team orientated in our support of a sport. The big difference between us and North America for example is that they first and foremost are supporters of the sport, we are supporters of a team - that plays a sport. There you have one reason why the stands dont fill up during WC:s for example. No home team, not buying tickets - maybe watch TV, maybe.
So now when Ilya Kovalchuk in his prime leaves for the KHL, how many players of his caliber can you stand coming without bailing on your promise to diss that league? How many of the youngest fans will choose to cheer for a Tier-3 league in Sweden when the KHL has taken a supreme grasp of the european scene? For me, not long, and i'd like a swedish team to get in on it. For now i'll just cheer for Jokerit. My impression of Zagreb is that many of their fans are actually really looking forward to the international rivalries with Bratislava and Praha. And who can blame them? Not me that's for sure.

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07-12-2013, 10:56 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Latvia and Belarus fighting to avoid relegation at Worlds, Kazakhstan a jojo team.
In the case of Kazahkstan they have always been a yoyo team. Also, I am not sure about all other club activity wilting... Until fairly recently wasn't hockey activity in Kazahkstan pretty much limited to a single club to begin with?

Latvia's senior team performance has regressed in recent years (this could be more due to players being unavailable than anything else) but they have established themselves as a yoyo team at in the U20 & U18 level. Those players got to be getting their start and coming from somewhere.

Belarus seems to have been passed by several nations at all levels in recent years. It should be noted though less than a decade ago they were also a yoyo team so I guess the fact they have survived this long in the elite divisions is at least something.

But ya... I don't buy the idea that the KHL entering a new country/market will lead to the country becoming more relevant or better at the sport. A whole lot more things need to go right for a country to improve in hockey and I am not sure the KHL rolling into town and potentially weakening other existing clubs or an established domestic league is one of those things. I can't help but think "are you sure about that?" when people suggest the KHL would do great things for Norwegian, Danish or even German hockey. In recent years those three countries* have surpassed Kazahstan, Latvia & Belarus without the KHL's 'assistance'.

*I guess one could argue that Germany was already ahead.

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07-12-2013, 12:48 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So now when Ilya Kovalchuk in his prime leaves for the KHL, how many players of his caliber can you stand coming without bailing on your promise to diss that league? How many of the youngest fans will choose to cheer for a Tier-3 league in Sweden when the KHL has taken a supreme grasp of the european scene? For me, not long, and i'd like a swedish team to get in on it. For now i'll just cheer for Jokerit. My impression of Zagreb is that many of their fans are actually really looking forward to the international rivalries with Bratislava and Praha. And who can blame them? Not me that's for sure.
"Oh no pa, I'm not gonna cheer for the local team everyone in our town roots for, or a team in the best league in the world. I'm gonna cheer for this random KHL-team we have nothing in common with!"
You're funny.

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07-12-2013, 03:06 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So now when Ilya Kovalchuk in his prime leaves for the KHL, how many players of his caliber can you stand coming without bailing on your promise to diss that league? How many of the youngest fans will choose to cheer for a Tier-3 league in Sweden when the KHL has taken a supreme grasp of the european scene? For me, not long, and i'd like a swedish team to get in on it. For now i'll just cheer for Jokerit. My impression of Zagreb is that many of their fans are actually really looking forward to the international rivalries with Bratislava and Praha. And who can blame them? Not me that's for sure.


You still don't get it.

New Jersey devils has how many Swedish fans? How many fans will now leave the Devils and choose another one?

The team that signs Kovalchuk will get just as many Swedish fans as the New Jerseys Devils did when signing him (actually they wont, they will not get any swedish fans at all). How many Swedish fans actually left their team to let Colorado be number 1 when Forsberg played there? Any MODO fans raising hands? No? Any Karlskoga fans raising hands? No!? Many jumped on the band wagon favoring Colorado in the NHL in those day. But that's totally different. No Swedish team felt a drop off in their support because of a NHL team.

And of course. In Olofstrom (3rd tier swedish team) the kids now will wake up to the likes of Moskow, St Petersburg and Prag. Yeah right! A little to far to home games i would guess...

I can image the excitement when KHL officials realize the potential of the fan bases in small Swedish hillbilly towns (no offence Olofstrom).

I have a team, a team i will stick with until I die (sorry Jokerit). My interest lies with them and the league they play in. It doesnt bother me a bit that Crosby doesnt play in that league. And it will not bother the youngest fans either since teams closest to them, teams they can relate to (for example GO AND SEE GAMES), will be the teams that wins their hearts.

Have fun cheering for Jokerit (no offense to Jokerit either). Season tickets? Full TV coverage package?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
My impression of Zagreb is that many of their fans are actually really looking forward to the international rivalries with Bratislava and Praha. And who can blame them? Not me that's for sure.
Of course they are. Why would they not be excited? You don't see the difference between Croatian hockey and Swedish? Culture differences? Historic differences? No? Nothing?



And last but not least. I'm not dissing the KHL. I'm just dissing your view on things. Today is a great day reading the butt hurt comments from NHL fans when one player does what hundreds of europeans have done when bolting to the NHL.


Last edited by icing: 07-12-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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07-12-2013, 05:27 PM
  #87
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It's funny you mention olofström because my 80 year old jolly grandmother lives there, and blekingar are generally a very nice people (especially compared to skåningar apparently) but i could easily see her single handedly toss any wannabe big shots coming there all the way back to the third-world rather quickly. After which she would peacefully take a seat in her favorite couch only to frenetically check sydöstran if olofström have beaten sölvesborg, mörrum, mjällby or and especially kristianstad at anything. Oh does she hate kristianstad.

So we can cross little olofström off the list, god help whoever tries anything there

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07-12-2013, 07:21 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So now when Ilya Kovalchuk in his prime leaves for the KHL, how many players of his caliber can you stand coming without bailing on your promise to diss that league? How many of the youngest fans will choose to cheer for a Tier-3 league in Sweden when the KHL has taken a supreme grasp of the european scene? For me, not long, and i'd like a swedish team to get in on it. For now i'll just cheer for Jokerit. My impression of Zagreb is that many of their fans are actually really looking forward to the international rivalries with Bratislava and Praha. And who can blame them? Not me that's for sure.
Until it's either the best league in the world (which will take WAY more than 50 Kovalchuks moving to KHL) or 80%+ of the best swedish players play there, I, and most of the swedish population, won't care at all.

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07-12-2013, 08:29 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by icing View Post


You still don't get it.

New Jersey devils has how many Swedish fans? How many fans will now leave the Devils and choose another one?

The team that signs Kovalchuk will get just as many Swedish fans as the New Jerseys Devils did when signing him (actually they wont, they will not get any swedish fans at all). How many Swedish fans actually left their team to let Colorado be number 1 when Forsberg played there? Any MODO fans raising hands? No? Any Karlskoga fans raising hands? No!? Many jumped on the band wagon favoring Colorado in the NHL in those day. But that's totally different. No Swedish team felt a drop off in their support because of a NHL team.

And of course. In Olofstrom (3rd tier swedish team) the kids now will wake up to the likes of Moskow, St Petersburg and Prag. Yeah right! A little to far to home games i would guess...

I can image the excitement when KHL officials realize the potential of the fan bases in small Swedish hillbilly towns (no offence Olofstrom).

I have a team, a team i will stick with until I die (sorry Jokerit). My interest lies with them and the league they play in. It doesnt bother me a bit that Crosby doesnt play in that league. And it will not bother the youngest fans either since teams closest to them, teams they can relate to (for example GO AND SEE GAMES), will be the teams that wins their hearts.

Have fun cheering for Jokerit (no offense to Jokerit either). Season tickets? Full TV coverage package?


Of course they are. Why would they not be excited? You don't see the difference between Croatian hockey and Swedish? Culture differences? Historic differences? No? Nothing?



And last but not least. I'm not dissing the KHL. I'm just dissing your view on things. Today is a great day reading the butt hurt comments from NHL fans when one player does what hundreds of europeans have done when bolting to the NHL.
Why do you always start your replies to me with that laughing smiley? Not a very usual, nor sympathetic behaviour in my mind.

Look man, it aint about Kovalchuk playing for a swedish team. It's about trying to win a league where Kovalchuk is one of the main stars in it. Not Jonathan Ericsson or some other "all-time great".
I will however refrain from making further claims about how i envision that the european hockey scene will develop in the upcoming years, becouse i find that we could just go on and on forever doing that. But there is no doubt about where the money and the vision is, that is not a close race.
I will however closely follow Jokerit on their daring, trailblazing journey into their big new adventure becouse i feel that not the least the KHL will also do that and if it works like they obviously hope, then that would perhaps be a very good omen for further expansion west. Becouse at the end of the day it's not really important what you and me choose to cheer for or not, it's about how development actually happens. You say that it will probably happen that way, i say another way. I can live with that.

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07-12-2013, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Why do you always start your replies to me with that laughing smiley? Not a very usual, nor sympathetic behaviour in my mind.
Really you have to ask that?

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07-12-2013, 08:38 PM
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Really you have to ask that?
Yes, i think its direspectful and out of place.

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07-12-2013, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Latvia and Belarus fighting to avoid relegation at Worlds, Kazakhstan a jojo team.
I'm not following you anymore. What this sentence has to do with "the KHL teams completely wilting nearly all other club hockey activity in Latvia, Kazakhstan and Belarus" after I already explained that Kazakh hockey league is in it's best shape ever. Even then, was Kazakhstan ever something more than yo-yo team? Were Latvian NT members playing in local league before KHL came around?

This statement from honorable Mr. Stubb is just based on nothing. And it's silly to think these three national teams are solely where they are just because the KHL exists. Shame that he didn't mention Ukraine as well...

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07-12-2013, 11:38 PM
  #93
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I'm not following you anymore. What this sentence has to do with "the KHL teams completely wilting nearly all other club hockey activity in Latvia, Kazakhstan and Belarus" after I already explained that Kazakh hockey league is in it's best shape ever. Even then, was Kazakhstan ever something more than yo-yo team? Were Latvian NT members playing in local league before KHL came around?

This statement from honorable Mr. Stubb is just based on nothing. And it's silly to think these three national teams are solely where they are just because the KHL exists. Shame that he didn't mention Ukraine as well...
His full statement/opinion was that it's "ruined" the hockey in those countries, national teams of course being the prime example.

My personal opinion is that Latvia and Belarus are suffering the effects of the old "Soviet- trained" growing old old or retiring and no new blood to replace them. Latvia seem toe be reaping the benefits on few individuals (like Girgensons) getting to play in the CHL though.

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07-12-2013, 11:43 PM
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Yes, i think its direspectful and out of place.
I think he finds your opinions/views/logic disrespectful to his/everyone's intellect thus worthy of a laugh. But could be just me, I never shy away from disrespecting anyone for any reason.

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07-13-2013, 03:54 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
My personal opinion is that Latvia and Belarus are suffering the effects of the old "Soviet- trained" growing old old or retiring and no new blood to replace them. Latvia seem toe be reaping the benefits on few individuals (like Girgensons) getting to play in the CHL though.
Your opinion is way more based in reality than Stubb's. I'm not sure why you listen to his We iced the very same, Soviet trained roster, pretty much, 15 years in a row. Our lack of of a new blood is easily understandable when you look and see that we had 1.5 hockey arenas in the country the whole 90-ties. Since then we've built ~15 more and now see that we churn out solid prospects every year again.

Kazakhstan is booming as I said (also there's a good chance they could have the same reputation of Latvia as elite WC mainstays if even 50% of their player pool reported to NT regularly) but Belarus problem most likely (as you can see, I can't really explain it) is just mismanagement of the resources. With amount of money that has gone into their hockey, they should be much closer to Switzerland than Slovenia.

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07-13-2013, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
His full statement/opinion was that it's "ruined" the hockey in those countries, national teams of course being the prime example.

My personal opinion is that Latvia and Belarus are suffering the effects of the old "Soviet- trained" growing old old or retiring and no new blood to replace them. Latvia seem toe be reaping the benefits on few individuals (like Girgensons) getting to play in the CHL though.
Yeah right- Girgensons,Rihards Bukarts,Miks Indrašis,Teodors Bļugers,Roberts Lipsbergs,Haralds Egle we make more than enough talent for such a small country like us.
Your arrogance is just annoying- you talk about subjects you dont know **** about,yet have no actual clue about WHAT is that you are talking about.

Oh and the most hilarious thing is that you said that Girgensons played in CHL,please,Jussi,for your own sake educate yourself.


Last edited by BalticWarrior: 07-13-2013 at 05:55 AM.
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07-13-2013, 05:54 AM
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I think he finds your opinions/views/logic disrespectful to his/everyone's intellect thus worthy of a laugh. But could be just me, I never shy away from disrespecting anyone for any reason.
I wonder if you are the same in real life? I guess not,internet tough guy.

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07-13-2013, 06:51 AM
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After reading KHL=WHA thread I want to write somenthing about this.

WHA tried to rival NHL, to establish second league in NA, maybe to merge later. NHL won, money won.

KHL wants to change euro hockey, which is based on domestic leagues. Who wil win? I bet on money. The Q is, who has money?

As I see it, swedish hokey is based on developing players for NHL, sad swedish clubs sell/release their top players for penny. As I understand, main source of resources (money) are development fees from NHL, tv-contracts of SHL/Allsvenskan and maybe government money (?). Do you consider this model as sustainable? Do you think that Sweden will be top producer of talent forever? If not, what then??

Sweden does not want to join KHL, I respect it, no problem with it.

Imagine that Sweden is not main producer of talent and KHL establishes itself in Finland, Germany maybe Norway (Denmark).

1) Swedish clubs would earn less money from NHL, because no/less talent is there. Or some guys go to KHL instead (??)

2) Can SHL tv-deals grow? What if KHL is there, can SHL tv-deals grow?

Remember of Viasat - ok, not broadcasting now, but what if.

3) Can government fund the development system if "NHL money" and "tv-deals" are not there in today´s amount?

Try to think about this and then ask yourself what is better - to join/cooperate with KHL or not. Sweden is not Russia which can fund hockey with big loses for decades.

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07-13-2013, 08:40 AM
  #99
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I wonder if you are the same in real life? I guess not,internet tough guy.
Oh, we Finns never shy away from telling it like it is(when we talk in the first place). Like I said re: pests in NHL, we're born "vittumainen".


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07-13-2013, 10:21 AM
  #100
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As I see it, swedish hokey is based on developing players for NHL, sad swedish clubs sell/release their top players for penny.
Until you realize most of us are more than fine with that, you comming here trying to argue with us is 100% pointless. You see problems in things that we see no problems in.

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