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Old
07-13-2013, 02:19 AM
  #76
maplepred
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Do you guys really believe Seth jones is ready to be a second pairing defenseman as far as our defensive lines go?

I can see him and Ellis rotating between the second and third pairing. Just don't think an 18 year old 'defebseman' can handle second pairing right away.

May even benefit Seth to play in juniors again. Or ahl.

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07-13-2013, 02:32 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Do you guys really believe Seth jones is ready to be a second pairing defenseman as far as our defensive lines go?

I can see him and Ellis rotating between the second and third pairing. Just don't think an 18 year old 'defebseman' can handle second pairing right away.

May even benefit Seth to play in juniors again. Or ahl.
He cannot play in the AHL due to bis age. So its either make the Preds or return to juniors.

Poile says he is the most NHL ready player in this years draft.

I'm thinking there's no way he goes back to junior. As to whether he can handle 2nd line duty right out of the gate, time will tell. He may start the season on the third pair and get his feet we're before moving up but I think if poile is that high on him I like his chances.

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07-13-2013, 08:51 AM
  #78
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I thought he could play in ahl because he was American?
I thought only chl players had that rule for playing in ahl.

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07-13-2013, 09:02 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
I thought he could play in ahl because he was American?
I thought only chl players had that rule for playing in ahl.
Has nothing to do with nationality, but rather where you are drafted out of. Jones was drafted out of the WHL, therefore he is subject to the CHL-NHL transfer rules and is ineligible for the AHL.

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07-13-2013, 09:43 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
Has nothing to do with nationality, but rather where you are drafted out of. Jones was drafted out of the WHL, therefore he is subject to the CHL-NHL transfer rules and is ineligible for the AHL.
Ahhh,
This is true, thank you my friend.

Guess he will be a predator next season.

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07-13-2013, 12:12 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
Josi and a first? Thats overpayment.
Well, of course it is. This is a proposal involving poaching the star leading scorer of a team that is slim on offense. There are certain market issues that come up with scenarios like that.

* * *
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Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
Because the entertainment level of the board goes down with the constant bashing of Poile because he simply refuses to trade our mediocre prospect + our 4th line scrub for other teams NHL all-star.

I'm thinking if people actually ventured outside this board and tried to construct a workable deal with with other fan bases, it might make it a little better and might lead to a greater appreciation of our where our team really stands with respect to our roster/farm/etc.
I wouldn't suggest posting. I'd suggest reading. Posting would destroy the Preds' fanbase rep around here.

* * *
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Obviously if poile really wanted to acquire a star forward he could, but it would cost us assets that he just may not be willing to deal. So yeah, in saying just get something done. Maybe you have to trade a guy you don't really want to, but it would be worth it hopefully in the end to get the guy you've needed for like ten seasons. That what hockey is, sometimes you have to take risks, and it's time.
Roman Josi, Filip Forsberg, and next year's 1st for Evander Kane. No counteroffers allowed because they're not interested in further negotiation.

"Grow a pair and do it. Or else you're a ***** who can't get the deal done."

Think about the other team for once, and their involvement in the discussion. This isn't buying and selling, it's barter, and they are under no obligation to do business with you.

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07-13-2013, 12:19 PM
  #82
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If the asking price happened to actually be Josi, Forsberg and a 1st I would laugh so hard it would kill me. Kane is not that good, though I wouldn't be surprised if his value to his club was that high.

Josi, Forsberg and a 1st would beat out the Sens payment for Ryan, and Ryan >> Kane.

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07-13-2013, 12:39 PM
  #83
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Um...21 year old 30 goal scorer, scored 17 goals in the shorten lockout season and can play both forward and defense...

Oh and his team sucks and needs scoring as bad as you do.


You will pay...a lot.

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07-13-2013, 12:54 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
If the asking price happened to actually be Josi, Forsberg and a 1st I would laugh so hard it would kill me. Kane is not that good, though I wouldn't be surprised if his value to his club was that high.

Josi, Forsberg and a 1st would beat out the Sens payment for Ryan, and Ryan >> Kane.
I don't know about that TMI. Same points scored last year, Kane outscored him by 3 points this year, and is also 5 years younger. Kane is signed for 4-5 more years, while Ryan is for 2. Kane also has played on a crappy Jets/Thrashers team, while Ryan has played with the likes of Getzlaf, Perry, Selanne, etc... I know that I probably would have to think hard about that package for Kane, but I definitely would not give it up for Ryan.

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07-13-2013, 01:17 PM
  #85
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I'd do a Josi/Kane swap. Not sure about adding a 1st though.

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07-13-2013, 01:46 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
If the asking price happened to actually be Josi, Forsberg and a 1st I would laugh so hard it would kill me. Kane is not that good, though I wouldn't be surprised if his value to his club was that high.
It's an extreme example; I'm aware he's not that good. The point I was getting at is that blithe whining about "he's just too much of a ***** to give up the needed assets to Get The Deal Done" in the absence of context is patently absurd.

See, I'm willing to bet that when folks make that complaint, it's because they're convinced that if they tack on just one more piece that hurts depth slightly, then that constitutes "enough pain for us" and therefore it's the way to close the deal, but that folks who don't like that "pain" are going to not have the strength of character to do that. When in fact the usual "pain" required isn't in terms of more depth players given up, but players higher up on the depth chart - it's not "Ellis + 1st and we'll just have to stretch to include Beck BUT IT WILL BE WORTH IT", it's "Jones + 1st".

I suspect that manages to evade a lot of people, despite the fact that it's demonstrated repeatedly in plain sight on T&R every single time every fan of The Other Team makes a counteroffer.

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07-13-2013, 02:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
It's an extreme example; I'm aware he's not that good. The point I was getting at is that blithe whining about "he's just too much of a ***** to give up the needed assets to Get The Deal Done" in the absence of context is patently absurd.

See, I'm willing to bet that when folks make that complaint, it's because they're convinced that if they tack on just one more piece that hurts depth slightly, then that constitutes "enough pain for us" and therefore it's the way to close the deal, but that folks who don't like that "pain" are going to not have the strength of character to do that. When in fact the usual "pain" required isn't in terms of more depth players given up, but players higher up on the depth chart - it's not "Ellis + 1st and we'll just have to stretch to include Beck BUT IT WILL BE WORTH IT", it's "Jones + 1st".

I suspect that manages to evade a lot of people, despite the fact that it's demonstrated repeatedly in plain sight on T&R every single time every fan of The Other Team makes a counteroffer.
Well, and we clearly know how it feels in the reverse. How often are we being pitched something like Weber for Gagner, Hemsky, 1st, and our counter is for two of the Big 4+. It's really tough to get a true sense of player value unless you really watch a ton of hockey and see every team on a semi-consistent basis. There's more to player value than just the stat sheets.

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07-13-2013, 02:14 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
I don't know about that TMI. Same points scored last year, Kane outscored him by 3 points this year, and is also 5 years younger. Kane is signed for 4-5 more years, while Ryan is for 2. Kane also has played on a crappy Jets/Thrashers team, while Ryan has played with the likes of Getzlaf, Perry, Selanne, etc... I know that I probably would have to think hard about that package for Kane, but I definitely would not give it up for Ryan.
Kane is a good player, but he is far from being as proven as Ryan in terms of putting up points. He has scored 30 goals once. Ryan has done it four times.

That package for either of them would be silly anyway, to be honest (and I know it was purely hypothetical). We would be opening up a hole on defense without even knowing for sure if the hole we had last year is filled. We won't know that until Jones plays some games at this level, or until we see how far Ekholm has progressed. A top pairing defenseman signed for seven years, a newly acquired blue chip prospect and a 1st that will likely be pretty high after giving up that package? No thanks.

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07-13-2013, 02:53 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by maplepred View Post
Lets compare last year offense to this year,

Remember the key word is 'offense'

Wilson - Wilson
Hornqvist - hornqvist
Legwand - legwand
Fisher - fisher
Erat >>>>>> stalberg
Spaling >>>> hendricks
Halischuk >>>> nystrom
Bourque - bourque
Kostitsyn << Cullen
Smith - smith
Goose - goose
Beck - beck
Clune - clune


Anyone that thinks forsberg is going to light it up will be sadly mistaken. He doesn't have the talent around him to make plays, and he is only 19, I mean if we had of got barkov nobody expected him to contribute right away, and he is way better size and talent wise than forsberg.

I hate to say it, but we are going to struggle to score goals big time this season.

Having possibly best defense and goaltending in the league is great, but the other guys will score eventually, and if we can score, we don't win. Simple.

We need more balance like Chicago (who just won cup), they have elite forwards and defense as well.
dude what are you thinking? Stalberg is an upgrade from the older, declining Erat and will be given the opportunity to prove it.

Forsberg was slated to go 3rd overall in the draft and didn't because of the defensive draft picks because teams thought they might miss out on d-men since they were all getting nabbed early. So, he may definitely end up being our best player in a couple years and I hope he is so I can say told you so.

Cullen is a good pickup.

And our 4th line is not gonna be something to mess with.

We are definitely better than last year, we just haven't seen it yet because these guys haven't even put on their jersey yet. I'd like to see a trade or one more signing but I'm being patient because I like that we actually added. And i have BELIEF in our prospects.

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07-13-2013, 03:27 PM
  #90
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Not to mention no where was it taken into account that Wilson and Hornqvist each only played about half of the short season. Wilson had two fewer points than Erat while playing 11 fewer games. If he can stay healthy next season that is already an upgrade. The same can be said for Hornqvist.

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07-13-2013, 07:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
dude what are you thinking? Stalberg is an upgrade from the older, declining Erat and will be given the opportunity to prove it.

Forsberg was slated to go 3rd overall in the draft and didn't because of the defensive draft picks because teams thought they might miss out on d-men since they were all getting nabbed early. So, he may definitely end up being our best player in a couple years and I hope he is so I can say told you so.

Cullen is a good pickup.

And our 4th line is not gonna be something to mess with.

We are definitely better than last year, we just haven't seen it yet because these guys haven't even put on their jersey yet. I'd like to see a trade or one more signing but I'm being patient because I like that we actually added. And i have BELIEF in our prospects.

Well stalberg has not proven anything, so we cannot say he is an upgrade to erat whatsoever.

Also, Cullen is decent, but not any kind of offensive force, the guy is signed for two years and 3.5 million, he is 37 years old, is basically done his career, you day erat was old?

Galchenyuk and yakupov both went in top three, I don't really understand why forsberg slipped though, but I so think he is a heck of a prospect! Just not going to throw up fifty points or something crazy next season.

I have belief in our prospects, but I think if we want to win now (which is what weber and rinne want), then we need to bring in offensive help. We have no prospects that are netting fifty points next season, I would be surprised with forty to be honest.

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07-13-2013, 08:28 PM
  #92
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Weber and Rinne have plenty of time to win. I don't think we need a lot of drastic moves to try to satisfy them. It would be nice to get an offensive threat, but I think we have some time to work with here. Let's see how the team plays.

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07-14-2013, 08:08 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
Well, and we clearly know how it feels in the reverse. How often are we being pitched something like Weber for Gagner, Hemsky, 1st, and our counter is for two of the Big 4+. It's really tough to get a true sense of player value unless you really watch a ton of hockey and see every team on a semi-consistent basis. There's more to player value than just the stat sheets.
That, and a player's value is not a constant.

* * *
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Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
dude what are you thinking? Stalberg is an upgrade from the older, declining Erat and will be given the opportunity to prove it.
Having seen my team play against both... this is patently absurd.

Stalberg's greatest NHL scoring year to date, in four years of experience (starting at age 23), was 22-21-43 in 2011-12. Erat - having been in the NHL since age 20, for 11 years - has eclipsed this total every single year except his rookie season.

Where Stalberg might be an upgrade is that in terms of when he scores, he tends to do more goal-scoring than assists. That's something the Preds have needed. That said, Erat's generally outproduced him in that category as well simply out of sheer points volume.

To call Stalberg a upgrade is wishful thinking of the silliest kind. If we're lucky, he'll be a lateral move. Stalberg isn't the Erat replacement - that's Forsberg, and that's why he was picked up. Trying to assign those sorts of expectations to Stalberg is only going to lead to bitter disappointment. Accept Stalberg as he is - a "middle-6" player with insane speed who's a capable secondary scorer - and we'll all be fine.

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07-14-2013, 08:22 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
dude what are you thinking? Stalberg is an upgrade from the older, declining Erat and will be given the opportunity to prove it.

Forsberg was slated to go 3rd overall in the draft and didn't because of the defensive draft picks because teams thought they might miss out on d-men since they were all getting nabbed early. So, he may definitely end up being our best player in a couple years and I hope he is so I can say told you so.

Cullen is a good pickup.

And our 4th line is not gonna be something to mess with.

We are definitely better than last year, we just haven't seen it yet because these guys haven't even put on their jersey yet. I'd like to see a trade or one more signing but I'm being patient because I like that we actually added. And i have BELIEF in our prospects.
Where are the facts that Stalberg is an upgrade over Erat? I'd like to see how you came up with this assessment.

Forsberg is what he is, a kid with a massive upside and I hope he lives up to every single ounce of his potential, but it's still just potential at this point.

Cullen is a good player but a 2 year stop gap. He is not part of the teams long term plans so not really sure why we brought him in other than so we can roll 3 2nd lines.

The fact that people defend our 4th line as something to mess with is funny to me. They are grinders that are tough to play against. None of them are good fighters or ones that scare the other team. We have one guy that is good at faceoffs. None are going to chip offensively very much. Will they keep other teams honest as far as taking cheap shots at our guys, maybe, maybe not. The only thing they will do in return is check them hard but as far as retribution, what would any of them do against a guy like Boll or Mayers or even Tootoo? They'd get their butts kicked is what would happen. And the other part that bugs me is they are overpaid for a 4th line. Paying out that type of money when our issues were grit and OFFENSE yet we picked up a ton of grit for a hefty price and put the scoring onus on Stalberg, Cullen and a bunch of young guys who have not proven they can handle the load just yet. I think in time the young kids will produce but I think the money we spent could've been better spent to address all of our needs as opposed to some of them.

Year after year we clamor for more offense, more top 6 forwards, some sort of offensive talent and we picked up Stalberg who is fast and can stretch the ice but can the guy finish? Not so sure about that just yet. If he can, great but it isn't for certain that he can.

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07-14-2013, 08:40 AM
  #95
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Nothing is for certain.

I do like adding Cullen down the middle to give us that depth down the middle. We now have 3 #2 centers.

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07-14-2013, 09:18 PM
  #96
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Stalberg played on the 3rd and 4th line his career in Chicago. He was never given a rightful shot.

To shoot down the move for him is ridiculous. I'm completely convinced that our fan base on this site is just down to ridicule every single move we make. He had 22 goals just two years ago playing 3rd and 4th line minutes in Chicago. Let the guy play, he's gonna get 1st and 2nd line time in NSH.

I'm just trying to say everyone wanted moves so here are some we have made. Let the team play and if it all falls apart, then lets ridicule and b**** about what we did.

We made moves, although I agree we overpaid for our 4th line guys, Stalberg and Cullen are improvements to our roster allbeit Cullen is 37. The negativity is getting ridiculous. I'm all for some moves and getting better but damn, we just kill our moves constantly.

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07-14-2013, 09:59 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
Stalberg played on the 3rd and 4th line his career in Chicago. He was never given a rightful shot.

To shoot down the move for him is ridiculous. I'm completely convinced that our fan base on this site is just down to ridicule every single move we make. He had 22 goals just two years ago playing 3rd and 4th line minutes in Chicago. Let the guy play, he's gonna get 1st and 2nd line time in NSH.

I'm just trying to say everyone wanted moves so here are some we have made. Let the team play and if it all falls apart, then lets ridicule and b**** about what we did.

We made moves, although I agree we overpaid for our 4th line guys, Stalberg and Cullen are improvements to our roster allbeit Cullen is 37. The negativity is getting ridiculous. I'm all for some moves and getting better but damn, we just kill our moves constantly.
QFT

The fanbase on these boards are too negative. We got bigger, tougher, faster, and got more depth. We let go of a bunch of redundant scrubs that couldn't pick up their game when we needed it the most. I've seen the Halischuk 2nd OT goal vs the Canucks posted like a half dozen times by people trying to say that we should have kept him. We lost that series, so it's not like it was a series defining moment or anything. Heck, the Blackhawks just parted ways with the guy that scored the Stanley Cup winning goal. Do you think that their franchise is going to bat an eye in moving on?

There were about 3 main reasons that we did so badly last year:

1.) Our best forwards were injured for long periods of time.

2.) We lost Ryan Suter to FA

3.) We shipped Erat out (We were already not doing good at this point, but there is no denying we would have been better with Erat am I right?)

In my opinion given a normal, reasonably healthy season, there is no reason to think that the improvements that we've made in FA and the draft will pay dividends this year and we will be significantly improved. Poile did what he could given the circumstances, he can't control the weather. People should be excited that Poile was finally allowed to open up the ol' purse strings and build the team exactly how he wants. He mentioned being keen on Lecavelier and we were rumored to be in on Briere, but those slipped through. He isn't resting on his laurels. He knows what this team needs, and if the right opportunity presents itself, I'm sure that he will take advantage.

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07-14-2013, 10:30 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
Stalberg played on the 3rd and 4th line his career in Chicago. He was never given a rightful shot.
That doesn't have me convinced that he's going to be an Erat upgrade, let alone replacement.

However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecloser View Post
To shoot down the move for him is ridiculous.
There is a vast, vast difference between "he's not an Erat upgrade" and "he should never have been acquired". I think he's an excellent add for the Preds; I just think that expectations of what he does add and can add should be kept realistic. Saying he's an upgrade on Erat is unrealistic. But an Erat upgrade isn't needed - that's what Forsberg is here for.

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07-15-2013, 01:27 AM
  #99
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Where are the facts that Stalberg is an upgrade over Erat? I'd like to see how you came up with this assessment.

Forsberg is what he is, a kid with a massive upside and I hope he lives up to every single ounce of his potential, but it's still just potential at this point.

Cullen is a good player but a 2 year stop gap. He is not part of the teams long term plans so not really sure why we brought him in other than so we can roll 3 2nd lines.

The fact that people defend our 4th line as something to mess with is funny to me. They are grinders that are tough to play against. None of them are good fighters or ones that scare the other team. We have one guy that is good at faceoffs. None are going to chip offensively very much. Will they keep other teams honest as far as taking cheap shots at our guys, maybe, maybe not. The only thing they will do in return is check them hard but as far as retribution, what would any of them do against a guy like Boll or Mayers or even Tootoo? They'd get their butts kicked is what would happen. And the other part that bugs me is they are overpaid for a 4th line. Paying out that type of money when our issues were grit and OFFENSE yet we picked up a ton of grit for a hefty price and put the scoring onus on Stalberg, Cullen and a bunch of young guys who have not proven they can handle the load just yet. I think in time the young kids will produce but I think the money we spent could've been better spent to address all of our needs as opposed to some of them.

Year after year we clamor for more offense, more top 6 forwards, some sort of offensive talent and we picked up Stalberg who is fast and can stretch the ice but can the guy finish? Not so sure about that just yet. If he can, great but it isn't for certain that he can.
This!!
Word for word this!



People saying maybe we lost some bottom like scrubs for these new guys (Hendricks and nystrom to be specific), well news flash people, 'they' are scrubs, no sorry, my mistake, they are 'overpaid scrubs'. How is that an upgrade??

Also,
Poile said after trading erat he would get a replacement for him, well we already obviously had forsberg as that point, so where is our replacement you speak of David??

It's not that the fanbase, or some of it, is negative, it's that we are to damn annoyed seeing all the potential this team has, just need a couple right pieces, and we could make a cup run, but year after year we bring in zero offense to bang in pucks.

Of the four we brought in, none are top six.

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07-15-2013, 07:22 AM
  #100
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Posts: 17,879
vCash: 500
yet they all had more goals than Erat last season........

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