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2013 NHL Free Agent Frenzy Part 5

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Old
07-13-2013, 01:03 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by HABS win CUPS View Post
sigh yea i don't see why we took Briere over someone like Lecavalier
Um... they went after Lecavalier, he signed with Flyers two days before the Habs signed Briere. So they didn't take him over Lecavalier. Lecavalier chose someone else.

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07-13-2013, 01:28 AM
  #852
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Um... they went after Lecavalier, he signed with Flyers two days before the Habs signed Briere. So they didn't take him over Lecavalier. Lecavalier chose someone else.
Yes but I had thought he chose them for $$$$ ie highest bidder won or did he say no to Montreal aside from the cash

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07-13-2013, 01:33 AM
  #853
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Yes but I had thought he chose them for $$$$ ie highest bidder won or did he say no to Montreal aside from the cash
I can't see them not matching the money, but probably wouldn't match the term. It was only 0.5 mil more than Briere. I also question whether he wanted the pressure of playing in Montreal. But who knows.

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07-13-2013, 01:42 AM
  #854
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Better yet, get one of Samsonov...

Most teams are dumb for picking up UFAs. They are almost always not worth the money. Look at us: Gionta, Samsonov, Cole... After a year or two (and sometimes less than that) we're all making threads on how to get rid of those guys. Let's be honest man, we HAVE been dumb with how we've gone about this stuff in the past. Our asset management has been terrible. We let our players go for nothing and have replaced them with equally medicore and more expensive players.

What's saved us is our scouting and drafting.

On the UFA side of things, its very rare for a true superstar (a guy actually worth the dollars) to become UFA. That's because teams are too smart to let them go for nothing. The best that can be said about Briere is that it's only for two years. Doesn't make it a good signing but it could've been worse.

'Could've Been Worse' though is not a strategy for building a winning team.

This.

Our PP was top 5 in the league. We don't need help there.

As for him being tradeable, he's got a NMC...
This is an interesting thread. I generally agree with LG, and in this case I also agree, but with some comments that I have not seen here:

1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.

2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.

3. I further said that Bergy's next challenge was to find a minute eating top 4 big D man, again, through trade. This D man should also be in our cup window in 2 years. We will see. It looks unlikely.

Conclusion: Bergy has dealt with next year and the need to at least be competitive. That is one of his jobs and we should not discount that. But he has not in any way improved Habs for the cup window in 2 years, discounting the draft.

I think that is what is really making LG and others upset, and I don't blame them. We have to act now by trade of good vets in order to have the youth, yes, youth, to compete for the cup in 2015.

Marky and Pleks will not be on our next cup team, and we should have traded them this summer, or we had better trade them next summer, in order to ensure that Habs are young enough, and big enough to win the cup in our window. The Cup is now all about youth, and it is taking some organizations a long time to realize this.

Briere was simply not a cup window signing. He is a signing to keep us in the playoff hunt next year. That is not good enough. Along with good drafting, Bergy needs to start trading for youth, next year, or he is done.


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07-13-2013, 01:56 AM
  #855
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Bsl,

Outstanding post. You have really elucidated a lot of ideas percolating around the forum as subtext but not stated explicitly.

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07-13-2013, 02:03 AM
  #856
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Isn't PIT the oldest team in the league? DET is also ancient

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07-13-2013, 02:09 AM
  #857
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.

2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.
First, experienced vets are essential to winning a cup. Stop with the gerontophobia. Nobody wins a cup with a bunch of talented young guys (see EDM).

Second, our cup window always seem to be 2 years away. Anybody got anything more substantial in that regard? Maybe the fact that our cup window is always two years away is a clear sign that we are not making any significant progress?

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07-13-2013, 02:20 AM
  #858
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Our cup window is two years away because of Galchenyuk.

He is not Komisarek, Higgins, Leblanc, Pacioretty, etc. He is our most talented forward prospect since Guy Lafleur, and nobody else comes close.

Think of the impact Jonathan Toews has on the Blackhawks.

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07-13-2013, 02:28 AM
  #859
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He's rarely hit 80 games a season in his career so there's no reason to expect him to be perfectly healthy during his time here.
Never said he'd play 80 games, as long as he produces when he's in and he's healthy-ish in the playoffs, then I'm happy.
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I don't understand the playoffs matter more explanations. First off for all the points he's scoring he's on the ice for more goals against then he is goals for and his PP points don't make up the difference. So he's a net minus for his team.
I'm sure that had more to do with the players he was playing with and his goaltending, as to him being a net-minus. Playoffs matter more because they matter more. It's what we're all here for. If the guy is known to be a boss in the POs, then that is a big plus.
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Second, getting a better position in the regular season gives advantages for the playoffs (Weaker opposition, Home Ice Advantage, a chance to rest battered players) so the regular season is very important. And finally, we already got rid of a small soft player who would only show up in the playoffs, do we really want to go back to the Cammy days.
Didn't help us much this season, you still need the players to win you games once you're there. Some players get you to the playoffs, and some get you through them! Cammy would still be here if he weren't a primadonna headcase. Briere is a great influence for the youngn's.
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Gionta has been scoring his usual 25-30 goals a season since he joined us. There's been no decline so far.
Gionta has been getting worse each season, it's a good thing that he still manages to pop some goals, but he stagnates any offense on the rush which is a giant part of our system. Our odd-man rushes are embarassing.
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Plekanec, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Eller, Galchenyuk are all "creators" so in our top-9 we had 5 creators, you need a mix of creators and finishers. Throwing the puck at the net and crashing/banging in a goal might not look as nice but count for the same amount. Not too mention is generally considered the best way to score in the playoffs.
Throwing the puck at the net does not make you a "creator". George Parros can throw the puck to the net. I'm talking about guys that can delay and find the seams. Like, really create offense with their vision and skill. Only Galchenyuk and DD are really good at it. Eller has his glimpses but seems much more comfortable cycling and crashing/shooting. Plekanec is respectable but would benefit from a skilled winger, like Briere, who can set him up to shoot more often.
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It's not just offence from the D it's the depth at forward. We might not have a Giroux or Voracek but they only had 5 forwards at 0.5ppg, we had 8. They had 3 guys on pace for a pro rated 20 goal season, we had 7.
Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Lecavalier, Couturier, Schenn, Read, Hartnell, Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Rosehill, Hall...

We can't compare, yet.
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As for scoring in the playoffs most people claim you do this with size and crashing the net. We got boxed out of the front of the net by Ottawa, how does Briere help change that?
Briere is one of the absolute best in tight and in scrambles in front of the net so he'll obviously help us in that department, no? Why do you think he is so good in the playoffs?
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yes, it sucked when it counted most... you know when that was? It was in the playoffs where the whistles get put away and you need big guys to go to the net and screen the goalie. That's what we needed. Briere will not make one iota of difference there. None.

And it wasn't just the PP either... we just played the perimeter and didn't go to the net all series long. Meanwhile we let other teams have a patio party in front of Price. That's our problem and getting Briere just makes it worse.

First, I don't agree. Secondly, who cares? We have enough guys that can put up 50-60 points firing from the perimeter. We don't need another one.
Briere has made a living around the net. He definitely helps us in those goal-mouth scrambles and tips off shots from the point... His effectiveness when the whistles have been put away has already been proven via consistent excellence in the POs throughout his career. So....
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What we needed was a guy to create space for the 50-60 point players that we already have. As LShap said in another thread, if we were a football team we'd be all receivers and no linebackers. Good luck winning anything this way.
That doesn't make any sense.. It'd make much more sense to say "All receivers and no running backs" or "All DBs and no Linebackers", although in both cases there have been successful teams with said make-up..
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
And the worst part is that he makes our biggest weakness worse.
I don't see how you can argue that this was a good signing.
He doesn't make any weakness worse as he is replacing a player who is inferior to him in every way! Ryder/Gionta do not bring anything in the grit, space creating department so just stop with that crap. Ryder was the easiest person to knock off the puck on the whole team, literally. Gionta plays like its NHL 07, just skating to the corner and throwing it to the front of the net. There are no free glitch one-timers in real life Gio!!! He sucks at this point, seriously.. I respect both he and Gorges greatly, but I cringe when I'm on CapGeek and I notice their names on our roster breakdown!

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07-13-2013, 02:41 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
This is an interesting thread. I generally agree with LG, and in this case I also agree, but with some comments that I have not seen here:

1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.

2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.

3. I further said that Bergy's next challenge was to find a minute eating top 4 big D man, again, through trade. This D man should also be in our cup window in 2 years. We will see. It looks unlikely.

Conclusion: Bergy has dealt with next year and the need to at least be competitive. That is one of his jobs and we should not discount that. But he has not in any way improved Habs for the cup window in 2 years, discounting the draft.

I think that is what is really making LG and others upset, and I don't blame them. We have to act now by trade of good vets in order to have the youth, yes, youth, to compete for the cup in 2015.

Marky and Pleks will not be on our next cup team, and we should have traded them this summer, or we had better trade them next summer, in order to ensure that Habs are young enough, and big enough to win the cup in our window. The Cup is now all about youth, and it is taking some organizations a long time to realize this.

Briere was simply not a cup window signing. He is a signing to keep us in the playoff hunt next year. That is not good enough. Along with good drafting, Bergy needs to start trading for youth, next year, or he is done.
Great post. I will say though, that if we are to trade our vets for youth, it'd be a good idea to make little signings like the Briere one. If let's say guys like Markov, Gorges, Gionta and Plekanec are traded, then it'd be smart to acquire fairly priced, skilled leadership on the free market when an opportunity shows itself, as your youth will still need to be insulated.

I'm willing to be patient because I'm certain Bergy is trying hard and from his own words is "willing to pay the price". It's only a matter of time.

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07-13-2013, 03:32 AM
  #861
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Bsl,

Outstanding post. You have really elucidated a lot of ideas percolating around the forum as subtext but not stated explicitly.
That was my intent. Thanks DA

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Originally Posted by HABS win CUPS View Post
Isn't PIT the oldest team in the league? DET is also ancient
Pitts one cup with Crosby at age 21. Malkin also very young. Some good vets true, but come on. It was Sid and Malkin that won that cup. Detroit: I'll give you that one. Lids was a freak though, and Dats was 30, Zetter 28. Chicago is the very reason I made my post. I could not believe it when they won the first, their second is now convincing me that a core of youth with some 'vets', also not too old, are the future. LA was also pretty young. It is not 1968 any more. The game is brutal and astonishingly fast now. Of course there are exceptions like Lids and Chelly, but not many. 30 is getting old. I stand by my argument. Do I like it? Not necessarily, but that is the reality.

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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
First, experienced vets are essential to winning a cup. Stop with the gerontophobia. Nobody wins a cup with a bunch of talented young guys (see EDM).

Second, our cup window always seem to be 2 years away. Anybody got anything more substantial in that regard? Maybe the fact that our cup window is always two years away is a clear sign that we are not making any significant progress?
A couple of 'vets' yes, they are important to winning the cup. But a 'vet' is now about 30. That's 8-10 years in the league for a quality player, higher than the average career length for NHL players now. People are just not seeing this.

As for Oil. Come on , silly example. Loaded with 19 year olds who are not Crosby and Malkin, or even Toews or Kane, and no D, certainty no Duncan Keith (26 the first cup) and no goaltending. And yes, no quality 'Vets'. I never said the Oil was the model.

But star youth, combined with quality 2-4 line youth (Byfuglien comes to mind, age 24 when they won the first), and an absolutely fantastic 'vet' FA when you need it in the cup window, like Hossa, is the way. Hossa the 'Vet' was 31 or 32 by the way when Hawks won their first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Our cup window is two years away because of Galchenyuk.

He is not Komisarek, Higgins, Leblanc, Pacioretty, etc. He is our most talented forward prospect since Guy Lafleur, and nobody else comes close.

Think of the impact Jonathan Toews has on the Blackhawks.
Exactly. The cup window starts in 2 years, not now, and not 5.

Price will be Prime, Subby will be prime, Max will be prime, Gallagher will be prime, Tinordi will be young and strong, and Chuckie will be exceptional in 2 years. There is a reason for urgency, now. Gainey did not have this window by the way, or PG. Bergy does, and he cannot blow this.

In all of this, I have forgotten the Bruins of course. Tim Thomas at 36-37 defeats my argument to be sure. But goalies are a strange animal. Chara was 33, but again, a freak. Recchi defeats my argument, but again, an outlier. I still think the Hawks are a more sustainable model than Bruins.


Last edited by bsl: 07-13-2013 at 04:04 AM.
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Old
07-13-2013, 05:17 AM
  #862
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The future cup-contending core is:

Galchenyuk
Gallagher
Eller
Pacioretty
-------
Subban
Emelin
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Diaz
------
Price

Is that good enough to eventually compete for a cup? Maybe. If everything goes right, it will be comparable to the cores of Chicago, Boston, Detroit, etc when they won the cup. But only if everything goes right. In order to increase our odds, we need either:
1) A high quality UFA pickup. Briere does not count, we need someone good.
2) A high quality trade where we leverage the likes of Gorges, Plekanec, Bourque, Markov, Gionta, etc to somehow turn silver or bronze into gold. We can throw in a 1st rounder or two if it helps.
3) More of our prospects to exceed expectations and somehow be good by 2015-2016: Collberg, Thomas, Ellis, Pateryn, McCarron. We really shouldn't be depending on this.

This will be very hard to pull off. Bergevin failed this summer. He didn't increase our asset pool, and the Briere acquisition completes the squandering of cap space that began with the failure to lock up Subban and the ridiculous contract to Desharnais.

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07-13-2013, 05:31 AM
  #863
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diaz is not apart of our core and i wouldnt be surprised if he gets traded this year, last year of his contract and hes probably gonna ask for north of 3.5M+

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07-13-2013, 05:51 AM
  #864
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diaz is not apart of our core and i wouldnt be surprised if he gets traded this year, last year of his contract and hes probably gonna ask for north of 3.5M+
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3) More of our prospects to exceed expectations and somehow be good by 2015-2016: Collberg, Thomas, Ellis, Pateryn, McCarron. We really shouldn't be depending on this.
I'd rather include Emelin, Gorges and Diaz in a discussion about our core than Tinordi or Beaulieu. They're good prospects but they haven't proved anything in the NHL up to this point. They could very well be busts or #6/#7 defenceman and are not guaranteed to be top-4 defenceman. Kostitsyn was supposed to be a top-line forward at one point in his career, notable other players that fell short are Higgins, Komisarek and Theodore. All guys we felt were "locks" to be the players of the future. Jumping the gun a little/being hypocritical putting prospects in our core group of players.


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07-13-2013, 05:55 AM
  #865
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People keep hanging on this. It's the only possible thread to grasp onto. Briere has nice personal playoff stats. But he's a minus player despite the gaudy numbers so he doesn't help you as much as you might hope. And if the scoring dries up he does precious little else to help the team.

What if we don't get that PPG playoff beast? He does nothing else for us. What if the concussed guy who scored 6 goals last year is all we're going to get? And you keep saying 41-year old Jagr. DB is 36 when the puck drops, not 26, and I think it's reasonable that Jagr, even 5 years his senior, will be more physically able to handle the upcoming season.

These other two guys were more productive than DB last year and bring other stuff besides the scoresheet, and both represent a greater need for the Habs than a defensively deficient undersized player like DB. And look, I'd have been happier if the team had taken a flyer on a younger player like Mueller or Brunner. I am just baffled that Bergevin looked at this roster and that of all players out there, that Briere was the guy they wanted or needed.
what if ? what if ? all the guys we're talking about are 35+ so they can "break" at any time... Jagr may be in great shape, but he's 41 so he too can break at any time... and if he slows down you too will think his puck possession skills are rather useless, as much as a Briere not putting points on the board would be useless. as for Morrow, he's slow and as broken as Briere can be, and considering he plays a physical game I'm not sure it would be a great idea to bring a broken 35 yo to play a grinding role all season long...

keep believing Morrow and Jagr are eternal and will never break...

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07-13-2013, 07:16 AM
  #866
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First, experienced vets are essential to winning a cup. Stop with the gerontophobia. Nobody wins a cup with a bunch of talented young guys (see EDM).
Yeah, but you're missing the point. It's not about whether or not you can win without them, it's who does the "major lifting" when carrying a successful team. Look at some championship teams:

Chicago (2013):
First line: Toews (24), Bickell (26), Kane (24)
Top pairing: Keith (29), Seabrook (27)/Hjarlmarsson (25)
Goalie: Crawford (28)

L.A. (2012):
Top centres: Kopitar (24), Richards (26), Carter (27), Stoll (29)
Top defenseman: Doughty (22)
Goalie: Quick (26)

Boston (2011) - possibly one of the older sets of "core players", but:
Top 4 highest scoring forwards in playoffs: Krejci (24), Bergeron (25), Marchand (22), Horton (25) [5th was Ryder, who was 30]

Chicago (2010): Essentially the same core that went on to win in 2013.

Pittsburgh (2009): Malkin (22), Crosby (21), Staal (20), Letang (21), Fleury (24)

Detroit (2008) - usually a veteran and experienced team:
Top 5 playoff scorers: Zetterberg (27), Datsyuk (29), Franzen (28), Kronwall (27), Hudler (24)

Now, like you said, you can't win without those 30+ year old vets, but how many of them would you have paid more than any of these guys in these years for their relative contribution - even with the benefit of hindsight?

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Second, our cup window always seem to be 2 years away. Anybody got anything more substantial in that regard? Maybe the fact that our cup window is always two years away is a clear sign that we are not making any significant progress?
I don't think anyone here actually has a firm grasp on what the "window" is at any point. One major move the following season, and it could all change. One major injury the following season, and it could all change. People just like to come up with conversation and defend opinion, lol.

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07-13-2013, 07:38 AM
  #867
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
This is an interesting thread. I generally agree with LG, and in this case I also agree, but with some comments that I have not seen here:

1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.

2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.

3. I further said that Bergy's next challenge was to find a minute eating top 4 big D man, again, through trade. This D man should also be in our cup window in 2 years. We will see. It looks unlikely.

Conclusion: Bergy has dealt with next year and the need to at least be competitive. That is one of his jobs and we should not discount that. But he has not in any way improved Habs for the cup window in 2 years, discounting the draft.

I think that is what is really making LG and others upset, and I don't blame them. We have to act now by trade of good vets in order to have the youth, yes, youth, to compete for the cup in 2015.

Marky and Pleks will not be on our next cup team, and we should have traded them this summer, or we had better trade them next summer, in order to ensure that Habs are young enough, and big enough to win the cup in our window. The Cup is now all about youth, and it is taking some organizations a long time to realize this.

Briere was simply not a cup window signing. He is a signing to keep us in the playoff hunt next year. That is not good enough. Along with good drafting, Bergy needs to start trading for youth, next year, or he is done.
1. Markov and Plekanec wont be on our cup team ? considering Plekanec is only 30, is pretty much injury free and doesnt play a physical game (lessen the risks of an injury), and also doesnt show any sign he's about to slow down... why wouldnt he be part of a cup team (you know, cup window in 2 years only as you said yourself)

2. Youth is not the only way to go, and going younger doesnt mean you have to get rid of every 30 years old you know... besides, one of the cup finalist this year went the total opposite of that, they STARTED their build with the signing of a 30 years old UFA...

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07-13-2013, 07:46 AM
  #868
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I don't think anyone here actually has a firm grasp on what the "window" is at any point. One major move the following season, and it could all change. One major injury the following season, and it could all change. People just like to come up with conversation and defend opinion, lol.
Couldnt have said it better.

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07-13-2013, 07:51 AM
  #869
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
. 30 is getting old. I stand by my argument. Do I like it? Not necessarily, but that is the reality.
...
I still think the Hawks are a more sustainable model than Bruins.
Hawks top ten players for minutes/game in the playoffs (not the definitive measure of "impact" to be sure, but a good indication of their volume of use)

Players under 25: 2 (Kane-24, Saad-20)

Players 25-29: 4 (Toews-25, Hjalmersson- 26, Seabrook-28, Keith-29)

Players 30+: 4 (Sharp-30, Oduya-31, Hossa-34, Rosival-34)



I think a far more accurate description is that because of the financial reality of a cap system, players on ELC & RFA contracts are more likely to give a team greater bang for their buck, and so in building competitive rosters, teams are at an advantage if they have quality players earning "less" than they are "worth".

in that perspective, while trading for a quality young asset is ALWAYS a good idea, it makes no sense if what is required by that trade is to give up quality vets on "good value" contracts &/or other young talent with smaller cap hits/more years of ELC/RFA.

would make no sense, for example, to trade Plekanec because he's "over 30", unless you're replacing him with a superior (not just younger) NHL ready player...

GM's have always balanced the risk/reward in trading established assets for younger players projecting to be as good/better down the road, nothing new here.



for the Habs, I'd argue that the ideal window to aggressively pursue cup contention lies right now & in the next 2-3 seasons...

Having Galch, Gally, Tinordi, Beaulieu all ready/borderline ready to play solid roles for the team on small contracts + the existing RFA deals with Subban/Diaz/Emelin, & that gives you 5-7 roster players (one of which a norris winner ) all under 3M$(galch a touch over) and all capable to give you anywhere from effective to excellent top-9/top5 play.

add in MaxPac/Gorges/Bourque (at least the "good" bourque) on solid deals, and Pleks/Markov as vets giving you above market value play at their cap hits, and you have a pretty good nucleus of quality play for the dollar.

With the cap space the compliance buyouts provided him, and not making the extension mistakes with Desharnais/Bouillion, Habs were potentially looking at having that strong nucleus AND ~13M$ in cap space.

UFA market is a bad place to "build" a quality roster, to be sure, and this years crop didn't really have any pieces that were a good enough fit to be worth the market excess required to land them...

but, leveraging that cap space AND the huge number of picks in the top-90 we had, could have feasibly given him creative trade options that either he didn't explore or didn't pursue aggressively enough.

in any case, patiently & methodically building towards a winner is a WAY better approach than the foolish UFA entries of the past, so no complaints there.

Still doesn't really make much sense of the Briere addition (Ryder, at less, & younger/more effective, would have been a better choice IF he felt the need for that scoring winger role to be filled), nor does it earn this management team much kudos for their creativity in improving the roster short term.


better boring and safe than "gomez" creative, i suppose, but not too inspiring either way.

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07-13-2013, 08:23 AM
  #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
for the Habs, I'd argue that the ideal window to aggressively pursue cup contention lies right now & in the next 2-3 seasons...

Having Galch, Gally, Tinordi, Beaulieu all ready/borderline ready to play solid roles for the team on small contracts + the existing RFA deals with Subban/Diaz/Emelin, & that gives you 5-7 roster players (one of which a norris winner ) all under 3M$(galch a touch over) and all capable to give you anywhere from effective to excellent top-9/top5 play.

add in MaxPac/Gorges/Bourque (at least the "good" bourque) on solid deals, and Pleks/Markov as vets giving you above market value play at their cap hits, and you have a pretty good nucleus of quality play for the dollar.

With the cap space the compliance buyouts provided him, and not making the extension mistakes with Desharnais/Bouillion, Habs were potentially looking at having that strong nucleus AND ~13M$ in cap space.

UFA market is a bad place to "build" a quality roster, to be sure, and this years crop didn't really have any pieces that were a good enough fit to be worth the market excess required to land them...

but, leveraging that cap space AND the huge number of picks in the top-90 we had, could have feasibly given him creative trade options that either he didn't explore or didn't pursue aggressively enough.

in any case, patiently & methodically building towards a winner is a WAY better approach than the foolish UFA entries of the past, so no complaints there.

Still doesn't really make much sense of the Briere addition (Ryder, at less, & younger/more effective, would have been a better choice IF he felt the need for that scoring winger role to be filled), nor does it earn this management team much kudos for their creativity in improving the roster short term.


better boring and safe than "gomez" creative, i suppose, but not too inspiring either way.


Great post!

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07-13-2013, 08:29 AM
  #871
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
what if ? what if ? all the guys we're talking about are 35+ so they can "break" at any time... Jagr may be in great shape, but he's 41 so he too can break at any time... and if he slows down you too will think his puck possession skills are rather useless, as much as a Briere not putting points on the board would be useless. as for Morrow, he's slow and as broken as Briere can be, and considering he plays a physical game I'm not sure it would be a great idea to bring a broken 35 yo to play a grinding role all season long...

keep believing Morrow and Jagr are eternal and will never break...
Again with the gymnastics.

First off, the whole discussion of player moves is about probabilities. We are acquiring Briere for what we hope he'll do, not what he used to do. In that vein, my low opinion is based on the fact that there are enough warning flags with Briere that the risk of getting Gomez 2.0 is very high. The people who keep telling us 'drama queens' that we should support this move keep saying 'playoff beast, playoff beast' will not or cannot acknowledge :

1) DB's defensive shortcomings might make his playoff scoring irrelevant
2) The warning flags (age, injury history, declining performance) are such that I do not see it as any sort of given that Montreal is going to see that kind of performance

A few of the pro-DB crowd do acknowledge Briere's redundancy on the current Habs roster by saying this signing will make so much more sense once we trade DD and Gio.

Jagr and Morrow were much better than Briere last year. Morrow in particular brings an element of size and grit that the team dearly needs. I did not ever say he'd be my #1 target or that he was a must have. Just saying I'd take him over Briere (which admittedly is not exactly a ringing endorsement). I'd also take the younger guys Brunner or Mueller who are still sitting there. There is no doubt that short of signing a high end UFA like Parise or Suter, you are going to get a guy with question marks of some sort. Any of the guys left obviously do or they'd be signed by now. I just think Briere is a bafflingly bad fit for the Habs and would take any number of other options.

This goes back to your assertion a ways back that those of us who don't want DB want to see Dumont in the top 6, as if signing DB or getting nothing were the only two choices Bergevin had.

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07-13-2013, 08:48 AM
  #872
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Never said he'd play 80 games, as long as he produces when he's in and he's healthy-ish in the playoffs, then I'm happy.
I'm sure that had more to do with the players he was playing with and his goaltending, as to him being a net-minus. Playoffs matter more because they matter more. It's what we're all here for. If the guy is known to be a boss in the POs, then that is a big plus.

Didn't help us much this season, you still need the players to win you games once you're there. Some players get you to the playoffs, and some get you through them! Cammy would still be here if he weren't a primadonna headcase. Briere is a great influence for the youngn's.
The idea that you can build a team that's "built for the playoffs" but isn't very good in regular season seems dumb. Isn't that what Toronto kept preaching as they went after old UFAs. They were built for the playoffs, and every year they would beat Ottawa in the 1st round and then go nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Gionta has been getting worse each season, it's a good thing that he still manages to pop some goals, but he stagnates any offense on the rush which is a giant part of our system. Our odd-man rushes are embarassing.
Gionta had two seasons of of 46 points, an injury riddled season which he was below that pace and last year where he had a pro-rated 44 points. I just don't see the decline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Throwing the puck at the net does not make you a "creator". George Parros can throw the puck to the net. I'm talking about guys that can delay and find the seams. Like, really create offense with their vision and skill. Only Galchenyuk and DD are really good at it. Eller has his glimpses but seems much more comfortable cycling and crashing/shooting. Plekanec is respectable but would benefit from a skilled winger, like Briere, who can set him up to shoot more often.
All the guys I listed can create using vision and skill. But if your offence is entirely built on vision and skill and lacks that crash the net ability you aren't going to go very far. You need a balance of both. Before Briere we needed more crash & bang, Briere simply makes it even more so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Lecavalier, Couturier, Schenn, Read, Hartnell, Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Rosehill, Hall...

We can't compare, yet.
Why is that? They have two elite players in Giroux and Voracek but we are much deeper. Maybe if Schenn and Couturier break out big time they'll be as deep as us but if we are playing the what if game then we have a couple players poised to take big steps as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Briere is one of the absolute best in tight and in scrambles in front of the net so he'll obviously help us in that department, no? Why do you think he is so good in the playoffs?

Briere has made a living around the net. He definitely helps us in those goal-mouth scrambles and tips off shots from the point... His effectiveness when the whistles have been put away has already been proven via consistent excellence in the POs throughout his career. So....
Gallagher and Gionta are also really good in tight and in scrambles in front of the net. The problem is that in the playoffs defenceman are allowed to interfere and knock you down. That why's you need guys like Hartnell do go in and breakdown the defensive coverage in front of the net, then the small in tight players can swoop in and score.

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07-13-2013, 09:08 AM
  #873
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Originally Posted by HABS win CUPS View Post
sigh yea i don't see why we took Briere over someone like Lecavalier
Lecavalier wanted too much money is the first reason. The second reason, he never wanted to play here. I'm telling you, after playing 15 years in the US, you probably don't give a **** about the Habs even if you're from Quebec.

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07-13-2013, 09:12 AM
  #874
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Good post bsl. I can't say we don't need any veterans, because all the winning teams have them, but the core/important players are younger ones. The contracts that were given out on free agency were ridiculous. I agree we need to complete the team through trades and it is a good thing that the team is building up a strong prospect pool because they are great trading chips.

The types of players you listed to go after in trades are the types I was hoping he would take a run at this offseason. Players such as Bobby Ryan and Braydon Coburn fit that description. I don't know if MB was/is willing to pay the price right now though. Maybe he will wait to see the continued progression this year.

Players that need to be upgraded, IMO, are Gionta, Desharnais, Gorges, and Diaz. All good players but don't seem to fit into the current rosters needs. Briere was just signed with a NMC so it was no point listing him, and I think Markov's role should be reduced but is the veteran presence on the blue line, plus the anchor on the PP and that shouldn't change over the next couple of seasons.

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07-13-2013, 09:20 AM
  #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The future cup-contending core is:

Galchenyuk
Gallagher
Eller
Pacioretty
-------
Subban
Emelin
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Diaz
------
Price

Is that good enough to eventually compete for a cup? Maybe. If everything goes right, it will be comparable to the cores of Chicago, Boston, Detroit, etc when they won the cup. But only if everything goes right. In order to increase our odds, we need either:
1) A high quality UFA pickup. Briere does not count, we need someone good.
2) A high quality trade where we leverage the likes of Gorges, Plekanec, Bourque, Markov, Gionta, etc to somehow turn silver or bronze into gold. We can throw in a 1st rounder or two if it helps.
3) More of our prospects to exceed expectations and somehow be good by 2015-2016: Collberg, Thomas, Ellis, Pateryn, McCarron. We really shouldn't be depending on this.

This will be very hard to pull off. Bergevin failed this summer. He didn't increase our asset pool, and the Briere acquisition completes the squandering of cap space that began with the failure to lock up Subban and the ridiculous contract to Desharnais.
Three points-
1) Diaz in your cup contender pool isn't a great idea. We need size in the playoffs. We will get our Morin through the draft and himself, Subban, Tinordi, Emelin and Beaulieu will be a heck of a D core. Diaz doesn't fit in.
2) A big acquisition via UFA is less and less possible. Longer term contracts diminish the UFA pool every year and there are fewer of them out there. Players have a pick of where they want to go and that is bad for Montreal.
3) How had Bergevin failed this summer? Dude the UFA period opened July 5th (8 days ago). It's not over lol

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