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Old
07-13-2013, 03:48 PM
  #26
Troy McClure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klockis View Post
I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from when comparing AHL performance versus/and/or NHL performance, so don't get to heated if I misunderstand you position.

I remember that you (and several other people including Nill) didn't want to bring Bachman back because off one poor NHL season while he played good at both the AHL level and the season before. I want to remember you saying that the AHL numbers didn't matter. Exactly the same case was with Larsen (good in the AHL and one NHL season, but one bad lockout season was the only thing that mattered that you wanted him off the team).

But in Roussel's case the of the AHL numbers matters and the NHL numbers doesn't prove anything because off it being a lockout shortened season. Nevermind that he also cleaned up his act in the AHL too.

I fully understand if I missed something, but for me you arguments doesn't make much sense to me as it seems like you just pick information that fits your own bias.
The difference is what is being compared. Proclivity for penalties is a behavior choice that goes to a guy's style of play and his decisions on the ice. That has nothing to do with the level of competition he's facing. Roussel is having to change his style of play. His long-term success will depend on whether he is able to make his behavior change permanent. It's all a choice or him.

You're talking about talent. I don't care how good players look against lesser competition once they are in the NHL. Unlike Roussel choosing not to take penalties, there is nothing Bachman or Larsen can do to choose to be better NHL players. Larsen can't suddenly decide to produce points, and Bachman can't suddenly decide to stop pucks. It doesn't work like that.

Roussel was one of my favorite players last season. He can have a very nice NHL career if he stays out of the box. I have no idea why saying that is so offensive to people.

And for the record, Nill agrees with me about both Larsen and Bachman, so it's not like I'm out here alone thinking they suck as NHL players. I just happened to be ahead of the curve on those two (and Vincour). Don't worry though, I'll be plenty wrong about others. I have been very wrong in the past (Harvey, Sim, Jackman, Niskanen, etc.).

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Old
07-13-2013, 04:10 PM
  #27
Klockis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
The difference is what is being compared. Proclivity for penalties is a behavior choice that goes to a guy's style of play and his decisions on the ice. That has nothing to do with the level of competition he's facing. Roussel is having to change his style of play. His long-term success will depend on whether he is able to make his behavior change permanent. It's all a choice or him.

You're talking about talent. I don't care how good players look against lesser competition once they are in the NHL. Unlike Roussel choosing not to take penalties, there is nothing Bachman or Larsen can do to choose to be better NHL players. Larsen can't suddenly decide to produce points, and Bachman can't suddenly decide to stop pucks. It doesn't work like that.

Roussel was one of my favorite players last season. He can have a very nice NHL career if he stays out of the box. I have no idea why saying that is so offensive to people.

And for the record, Nill agrees with me about both Larsen and Bachman, so it's not like I'm out here alone thinking they suck as NHL players. I just happened to be ahead of the curve on those two (and Vincour). Don't worry though, I'll be plenty wrong about others. I have been very wrong in the past (Harvey, Sim, Jackman, Niskanen, etc.).
Never said you were wrong. I agreed with you concerning Bachman and I think we got fair value in the Horcoff trade so I was not defending either off them. Just wanted to understand what your though process was on the matter. I just somehow couldn't see the difference on your Larsen/Bachman stance and your Roussel stance but now I do, so excuse me for my blindness (looking back it was quite obvious).

No need to defending your stance in that last part, and I hope I didn't come off as disrespectful.

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Old
07-13-2013, 04:15 PM
  #28
Troy McClure
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No worries here. Hockey talk in July is a good thing. Unlike seasons past, there is something to talk about.

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07-13-2013, 09:41 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Shot View Post
According to BehindTheNet, he drew 1.6 penalties for every 60 minutes he played, tied for first on the team with Cole. He took 1.3 penalties/60 to put that into a bit of perspective.

the difference is, cole's penalties were for being lazy
roussell's penalties were for being aggressive

I will take aggresive any day

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Old
07-13-2013, 09:46 PM
  #30
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Thanks for your inputs guys. I'm happy that I started such a passionate discussion.

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07-13-2013, 10:23 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloonda View Post
the difference is, cole's penalties were for being lazy
roussell's penalties were for being aggressive

I will take aggresive any day
I think you misunderstood the stat. Drawing penalties means making the opponent take a minor. Cole was second in team at making other teams take a minor.

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07-13-2013, 10:37 PM
  #32
Mr Misty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloonda View Post
the difference is, cole's penalties were for being lazy
roussell's penalties were for being aggressive

I will take aggresive any day
Irony here is great, because Cole draws penalties by moving aggressively in a straight line.

I'm too lazy to look up Cole's PIMs, but I don't remember him taking many penalties at all

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07-13-2013, 10:50 PM
  #33
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didn't see the drawing part
my fault

I look at it like this, beyond the dumb penalties that roussell makes---which he did get better at---he didn't have effort penalties on him like I saw cole get for being lazy with feet/hooking etc

That is what I meant.

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07-13-2013, 11:07 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
Irony here is great, because Cole draws penalties by moving aggressively in a straight line.

I'm too lazy to look up Cole's PIMs, but I don't remember him taking many penalties at all
10 PIMs as a Star, so one every 6 games or so? Definitely not sure what aloonda is talking here, outside of just not liking a player maybe.

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07-13-2013, 11:19 PM
  #35
aloonda
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you are probably right as usual metal
I just think cole is a waste
would much rather save that cap room for someone more skilled than him and roussel
if i had to pick between the both---roussel every day and twice on thursday--because he gets after it, I think cole is lazy---there ya go

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07-13-2013, 11:24 PM
  #36
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We're getting OT here, but I think you need to give Cole a full season before making judgments. He's historically been one of the most physical and speedy players on any team he's been in, seems like the kind of player you enjoy. He led his team in Hits almost every year. 28 games isn't a great sample size to draw conclusions.

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Old
07-13-2013, 11:26 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
We're getting OT here, but I think you need to give Cole a full season before making judgments. He's historically been one of the most physical and speedy players on any team he's been in, seems like the kind of player you enjoy. He led his team in Hits almost every year. 28 games isn't a great sample size to draw conclusions.
I hope so. He just looked lost to me last year. Maybe it was being shuffled around so much/didn't know the role expected of him?

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07-14-2013, 10:33 AM
  #38
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Cole's had a great year (35 goals) the season before last. His game fell of a cliff after a half season lockout. I would not be surprised at all if this was a conditioning issue and he has a great year next season. I also would not be surprised if he sucks it up and is subject to a compliance buyout next offseason. Either way we are better waiting it out. Would be a real shame if he went on to score 20-30 goals and 50-60 points for some other team.

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07-14-2013, 11:51 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloonda View Post
you are probably right as usual metal
I just think cole is a waste
would much rather save that cap room for someone more skilled than him and roussel
if i had to pick between the both---roussel every day and twice on thursday--because he gets after it, I think cole is lazy---there ya go
Dude is skilled or he wouldn't have been a consistent top six player for so many years. Maybe he had a bad year or maybe he's in decline. But he was effective last year, has size and is fast, he looked pretty good last season considering his lack of production. I didn't see any laziness either. Hard, fast, and RUFF. He's perfect as a third liner and his style of play fits the team well IMO. The only thing I don't like is his cap hit in relation to production but not too big a deal, and I do think if he ends up sticking on the third line he'll be a 15ish goal 30 point guy which is more than fine considering he offers more than just points as well.

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07-14-2013, 12:04 PM
  #40
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Shady12 wins the internet by puns. He is awesome and we shall all obey him.

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11-15-2013, 01:38 AM
  #41
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Antoine Roussel

Leafs fan here.

Was on hockeyfights and noticed that Antoine Roussel seems to be in quite a few fights. Just wanted to know more about him. Skill-wise and just whatever you guys like (or dislike) in his play.

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11-15-2013, 01:45 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by armyboy12345 View Post
Leafs fan here.

Was on hockeyfights and noticed that Antoine Roussel seems to be in quite a few fights. Just wanted to know more about him. Skill-wise and just whatever you guys like (or dislike) in his play.
He's not your typical tough guy. He looks very comfortable playing 3rd line minutes.

Super fast and agile skater with decent hands and decent hockey IQ.

The only thing that I don't like is that he wears a visor. I wish he would shed it if he were going to keep fighting.

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11-15-2013, 01:56 AM
  #43
txomisc
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dime a dozen speedy lower line player

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11-15-2013, 02:06 AM
  #44
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So something like a Mason Raymond type without the scoring ability?

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11-15-2013, 02:51 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by oconnor9sean View Post
He's not your typical tough guy. He looks very comfortable playing 3rd line minutes.

Super fast and agile skater with decent hands and decent hockey IQ.

The only thing that I don't like is that he wears a visor. I wish he would shed it if he were going to keep fighting.
Aren't visors grandfathered in now?

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11-15-2013, 02:51 AM
  #46
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So something like a Mason Raymond type without the scoring ability?
He's just a ball of energy as Razor would say.

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11-15-2013, 04:05 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by txomisc View Post
dime a dozen speedy lower line player
You really think so? I am not as infatuated with him as some on here but I do seem him as a plus player of that category. Like he may be on the trash pile of bottom 6 guys so to speak but he is on top of that pile.

I would take him over many many players who would be considered comparable. He can make a good flat pass. He can elevate the puck close to the net. He can skate. I like him on our team.

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11-15-2013, 04:22 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc View Post
dime a dozen speedy lower line player
When Roussel's on his game he's an excellent third liner grinder/pest. You described Garbutt.

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11-15-2013, 04:53 PM
  #49
armyboy12345
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So he's more 3rd or 4th line material?

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11-15-2013, 05:11 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armyboy12345 View Post
So he's more 3rd or 4th line material?
He's a tweener. On average he's just going to look like a good fourth liner, give the team some energy, get them motivated, stand up for teammates. On good days he's going to look like a prime Steve Ott.

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