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Should the NHL rethink the Norris trophy?

View Poll Results: Should there be 2 separate Norris trophies given out?
Yes 130 53.06%
No 103 42.04%
Undecided 12 4.90%
Voters: 245. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-12-2013, 07:57 AM
  #76
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
Yes.

They have an award for best defensive forward, why not best offensive defenseman?... Call it Bobby Orr award and your set.

This yeas a joke that Subban won, he isn't even a top 5 defenseman in the league, but he is the flashiest and I guess that's what matters to some people.
not a top 5, you really dont watch much hockey. He vastly improved his defensive game compared to last year, besides the fact that hes one of the best skating dmen and has one of the best shots in the game (and thats not mentioning his physical edge). He was neck and neck with Suter for the Norris, and won by whisker, much like Karlsson last year. Boohoo.

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07-12-2013, 08:11 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
I said no....

yes, there is a bias towards point scoring dmen, but I dont think (today anyway) the writers would be voting for a purely 1 dimensional dman in any case. If so we wouldve seen a guy like Gonchar or Green win a Norris by now, but we havent.

Some will argue Karlsson was, but (so the debate goes) he isnt BAD defensively, and in the end, having Karlsson as a defesemen on your team is arguably more valuable than say a Weber or Chara.... I guess it all depends on what you consider "makes" a great dman...


- great shot
- PP QB
- makes good decisions with the puck (shoot, pass, dump, etc)
- first pass and skating out of the zone
- passing and playmaking
- puck handling and possession
- makes little mistakes
- TOI / PK time
- positioning / back checks properly
- takeaways
- blocked shots
- hits / agressiveness

SO the question is, who masters the majority of these type of attributes, and which carry the most "weight"?

I think Karlsson does overall, and I still see the (loose) comparison as Karlsson = Lidstrom and Chara = Pronger.
That is not good even as a "loose comparison" Lidstrom was the king of positional play and that is different than what I would call Karlsson's defensive play. Lidstrom, like Bourque, made things look easy, like there was no problem at all, guy tries to come down the wing, they would force him to the outside, guy tries to come inside they would poke the puck away, a guy tries to outskate them then they manage to get a body check on him to slow him down.

Not a lot of highlight defensive plays because 99.9999% of the time they made the perfect defensive play. The fact that it looked so easy for guys like Bourque and Lidstrom apparently convinces some people that those were just average plays that anyone would make when in fact they were great plays.

The Norris is for the best all around player at the defensive position, players with defensive deficiencies shouldn't win it just like players who only get 15-20 points shouldn't win it.

If they want to give a trophy to the best offensive guy or highest scorer the they need to make another trophy, that is not what the Norris trophy is for, it is for the best all around player.

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07-12-2013, 08:34 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
not a top 5, you really dont watch much hockey. He vastly improved his defensive game compared to last year, besides the fact that hes one of the best skating dmen and has one of the best shots in the game (and thats not mentioning his physical edge). He was neck and neck with Suter for the Norris, and won by whisker, much like Karlsson last year. Boohoo.
You know you have a bad argument when you pull out that classic line... probably 2nd most used phrased on HF next to "AINEC"


Chara, Weber, Karlsson, Keith, Doughty and Suter are all better... and could make points about Pietrangelo, Letang, Yandle and Oliver Ekman-Larsson being better as well.

He plays in Montreal, like Sundin getting 1st ballot HHOF due to playing in Toronto, PK has a lot of support/people behind him to boost the numbers in voting, so I take the norris with a grain of salt.

I wasn't pleased with Karlsson winning it 2 years ago... but he absolutly blew the competition away in points (by 30+ points I think)... so I understood and could see the logic there. PK never dominated above and beyond like EK did.

Great player, top 10 Dman, but the guys on my initial list I feel are better and have more an impact the game more than PK does.

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07-12-2013, 08:39 AM
  #79
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Lol let me summarzie this.

We got a Norris trophy to the best all around defenseman. Now you are pissed that Subban won this and you think he won it based only on points.

So you let you're furstration out in this thread by creating a new trophy that some of you're favorite defenseman could win or not. Thats pretty cool i respect that.

But Norris actually reward a defenseman for his defensive skill, because if it didn't, tell me how Chara would have won this 2 years ago? How Suter was runner up by about 10 points this year? How did Letang not win it this year as he archieved the most PPG?

Subban won it because he was the best overall, a mixture of his offensive ability, PP edge, and his role as a shutdown too, his team high +- on 5v5 and much more.

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Old
07-12-2013, 08:48 AM
  #80
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Considering the Norris trophy has been treated as the 'best offensive defensemen' trophy for 2 straight years now, I'd say yeah it's time for a change.

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07-12-2013, 09:20 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Considering the Norris trophy has been treated as the 'best offensive defensemen' trophy for 2 straight years now, I'd say yeah it's time for a change.
Here I was thinking Subban won the Norris, congratulations to Kris Letang on his 1st Norris trophy then!

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07-13-2013, 01:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by weaponomega View Post
No. It should be voted for as it was intended to be voted for.

Suter should have won this year.

Chara should have won last year.
Weber should have won last year

But chara should have won it over karlson..

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07-13-2013, 01:35 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Here I was thinking Subban won the Norris, congratulations to Kris Letang on his 1st Norris trophy then!
Dude I can't clap hard enough

Subban is great defensively people seem to forget that part.

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07-13-2013, 01:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Considering the Norris trophy has been treated as the 'best offensive defensemen' trophy for 2 straight years now, I'd say yeah it's time for a change.
Subban is great defensively.

Why yall butthurt about offense anyway??

I'll take a list PAST ORR ERA:

1976: Denis Potvin 98pts
1977: Larry Robinson 85pts
1978: Denis Potvin 94pts
1979: Denis Potvin 101pts
1980: Larry Robinson 75pts
1981: Randy Carlyle 83pts
1982: Doug Wilson 85pts
1983: Rod Langway 32pts
1984: Rod Langway 33pts
1985: Paul Coffey 121pts
1986: Paul Coffey 138pts
1987: Ray Bourque 95pts
1988: Ray Bourque 81pts
1989: Chris Chelios 73pts
1990: Ray Bourque 84pts
1991: Ray Bourque 94pts
1992: Brian Leetch 102pts
1993: Chris Chelios 73pts
1994: Ray Bourque 91pts
1995: Paul Coffey 58pts (45games lockout)
1996: Chris Chelios 72pts
1997: Brian Leetch 78pts
1998: Rob Blake 50pts (23 goals)
1999: Al MacInnis 62pts


I give up doing the rest...each winner aside Langway had bonafide numbers offensively...

Yet people compalin that they go high number today...It was the same back then lol.

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Old
07-13-2013, 02:23 PM
  #85
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Voted "Undecided" in lieu of an "I don't care" option. I guess, it would be nice for mostly defensive Dmen to have a trophy and get recognized, but I have no issue with the Norries trophy as it is. Letang, Subban and Karlsson are A+ NHL Dmen and people should just get over their need to put them down.

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07-13-2013, 02:46 PM
  #86
ps241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The "problem" with the Norris is that it's voted on by journalists

Make knowledgeable people vote on it and it won't be as skewed towards offense
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
I remember I read a story last year. Team 1200 had Bruce Garrioch on. They asked him who his ballot for the Norris would be (this was about 3/4 through the season). He said Niklas Lidstrom. The interviewer was almost laughing and asked him how often he said he'd seen Lidstrom play. Garrioch avoided the question. He asked him again, and Garrioch said twice. One against the Sens (opening game) and one other game throughout the season.

The scary part is, he has a ballot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT2002 View Post
What do you expect from a bunch of Journalist that just voted Ovechkin to both the 1st team and 2nd team All Star teams even after they were sent memos of what his voted position should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
The NHL just needs more competent voters.
All these!

As long as the writers get nowhere near the voting process then we are doing well.

I would be fine with all the head coach's voting and would be comfortable with the result.

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07-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TorstenFrings View Post
Voted "Undecided" in lieu of an "I don't care" option. I guess, it would be nice for mostly defensive Dmen to have a trophy and get recognized, but I have no issue with the Norries trophy as it is. Letang, Subban and Karlsson are A+ NHL Dmen and people should just get over their need to put them down.
Lets put it this way, if Letang won the Norris trophy, the mockery after the Pens got swept by the Bruins would have been absolutely ridculous. He'd be the laughingstock of HF for like a solid week (considering how much crap Karlsson got when he won last year by Weber/Chara advocates...).

I preferred Suter to win this year, but it was a 1a and 1b for him and Subban, so I don't mind Subban winning. Letang though.... It's a good thing that voters put him in third place well behind Suter and Subban.

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Old
07-13-2013, 03:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
Lets put it this way, if Letang won the Norris trophy, the mockery after the Pens got swept by the Bruins would have been absolutely ridculous. He'd be the laughingstock of HF for like a solid week (considering how much crap Karlsson got when he won last year by Weber/Chara advocates...).

I preferred Suter to win this year, but it was a 1a and 1b for him and Subban, so I don't mind Subban winning. Letang though.... It's a good thing that voters put him in third place well behind Suter and Subban.
So they are better because they only got half as far and not far enough to have a bad showing?

Whatever, I don't think we should be arguing anyway, because my point was that this "he is bad at defense, LOLZ" thing about every Norris candidate ever in the last years is just a meme, that needs to die.

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07-13-2013, 09:58 PM
  #89
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For me this isn't about who won the award this year or last.....they are both dam fine players.

This is about the fact that sports writers on balance are not qualified to judge IMHO......Gary freakin Lawless from the Winnipeg free press gets to vote and that along taints this award. Despite the fact they were given clear marching orders this year they still managed to vote Ovy onto the all star team twice .....No way this group should be making the call.

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Old
07-13-2013, 10:00 PM
  #90
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Yes, Karlsson winning it last year was an absolute joke.

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Old
07-14-2013, 09:58 AM
  #91
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What is with the Ottawa Montreal pillow fight in the sorority house?

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07-14-2013, 01:16 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
For me this isn't about who won the award this year or last.....they are both dam fine players.

This is about the fact that sports writers on balance are not qualified to judge IMHO......Gary freakin Lawless from the Winnipeg free press gets to vote and that along taints this award. Despite the fact they were given clear marching orders this year they still managed to vote Ovy onto the all star team twice .....No way this group should be making the call.
To be fair, that was the NHLs fault according to reports. The writers are normally told to vote for the positions listed on the website, and some voted based on that before the NHL sent their late message about Ovechkin's position. It's pretty clear the NHL does a bush league job when it comes to doing the votes.

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07-14-2013, 07:37 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
To be fair, that was the NHLs fault according to reports. The writers are normally told to vote for the positions listed on the website, and some voted based on that before the NHL sent their late message about Ovechkin's position. It's pretty clear the NHL does a bush league job when it comes to doing the votes.
Yea lots of blame to go around.....Lawless was on TSN radio (H & L show) talking to Dreger and Gary said the writers were given written notice by the NHL on the Ovi thing but allot of the boys apparenty missed the memo. Gary doesn't mind slinging mud but he said the writers really dropped the ball and it was tough to miss the heads up.


Last edited by ps241: 07-14-2013 at 07:49 PM.
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Old
07-14-2013, 07:41 PM
  #94
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Let's put it this way. Game 7, my team is up by 1 goal with 45 seconds left, faceoff in the defensive zone and I can put any 2 dman out on the ice Subban and Karlsson aren't on the ice.

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