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Old
07-14-2013, 11:18 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by NAF View Post
I overheard some guy at a bar who said his friend's brother went to the development camp and thought Nurse wasn't very impressive or anything.

BUST.
Nurse hasn't even played an NHL game yet???? Trade him before his value drops even more!

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07-14-2013, 12:08 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Karsa Orlong View Post
I am curious how you project him as a bottom pair D. You said you think he has low hockey IQ, which i have heard before but with caveats. I remember hearing a Jason Greggor interview where he was speaking to a scout about that. I honestly can't remember the name of the scount so take it for what its worth, but the scout was alluding to some scounts thinking this very early on in his rookie year, but that it was not even close to an issue anymore. So he was basically telling Gregor to stop looking at out dated scouting reports.

I have also read (i believe on copper and blue), that Nurse faced the toughest minutes of any defenseman in the CHL this year, when combining both QOC and ZS%. He also put up most of his points at even strength, with 2nd pair PP time only.

I respect your opinion, but it seems like you have to reach pretty far to come to that conclusion.
I'd be curious where Copper and Blue got those numbers since its hard to get an accurate FO% let alone advanced stats out of any junior league. And I'm not basing my assessment of nurse off scouting reports I'm going by what I have seen of him which admittedly isn't that much(4 games). But from what I have seen of him he has mediocre shot, average NHL skating, and low IQ. I wouldn't have took him in the top 20 of the draft for sure given the quality of other d men available. I'm projecting him to be bottom pairing for the reasons listed, although I would put his potential as a solid top 4 whose plays a nasty game, I just don't see him reaching it. For an NHL comparison I'd say Phaneuf without the shot, or physical stature.

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07-14-2013, 12:14 PM
  #403
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I think that Nurse has some pretty good instincts when it comes to taking the body but it'll likely take some time for him to put on the weight neccessary to play that way at the NHL level. I think it's best if he spends another 2 years in junior where he can hone his game and become a dominant player and then can come out like Pietrangelo or Eberle. It's shortsighted to bring him to the NHL at 19 given the way he plays the game and given that with Schultz, Klefbom, Marincin and the other young defensemen in the system there's no need to rush him. If he's ready for the NHL in a year then great but even if he is it might be best for his development to go back to junior.

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07-14-2013, 04:02 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
I'd be curious where Copper and Blue got those numbers since its hard to get an accurate FO% let alone advanced stats out of any junior league. And I'm not basing my assessment of nurse off scouting reports I'm going by what I have seen of him which admittedly isn't that much(4 games). But from what I have seen of him he has mediocre shot, average NHL skating, and low IQ. I wouldn't have took him in the top 20 of the draft for sure given the quality of other d men available. I'm projecting him to be bottom pairing for the reasons listed, although I would put his potential as a solid top 4 whose plays a nasty game, I just don't see him reaching it. For an NHL comparison I'd say Phaneuf without the shot, or physical stature.
The numbers are from over on Broadstreet Hockey by a writer named Eric T, an extremely smart guy and a pioneer of advanced stats, who did the legwork for a number of top prospects.

Also, Nurse's junior team in the Soo is ran by a 27-year-old GM named Kyle Dubas who is heavily interested in advanced statistics so they track their own metrics in-house and both Kyle and Nurse's coach Sheldon Keefe have attested to the quality of competition thing as well as Nurse's great possession numbers, which were both gleaned from that in-house tracking.

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07-14-2013, 04:17 PM
  #405
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Some scouting reports questioned his hockey sense too...

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07-14-2013, 04:46 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by oilsp1ll View Post
The numbers are from over on Broadstreet Hockey by a writer named Eric T, an extremely smart guy and a pioneer of advanced stats, who did the legwork for a number of top prospects.

Also, Nurse's junior team in the Soo is ran by a 27-year-old GM named Kyle Dubas who is heavily interested in advanced statistics so they track their own metrics in-house and both Kyle and Nurse's coach Sheldon Keefe have attested to the quality of competition thing as well as Nurse's great possession numbers, which were both gleaned from that in-house tracking.
Those numbers are highly refutable and would not hold up well under any circumstance. I wouldn't put any weight into them at all. As for the coach and GM, I'd say show me your books. There been a lot of times where GMs and coaches have talked up there own players to help ensure a better draft position.

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07-14-2013, 05:27 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Dempsey View Post
You think that the thought of a raw defenseman taking until the age of 20 to 21 to become an NHLer is nuts?
No, I think its nuts that people think he can't play in the NHL until he weights 245 pounds. He isn't that raw. He could play in the NHL this year. I think he makes the team next year. At most he is 2 years away.

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07-14-2013, 05:30 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
No, I think its nuts that people think he can't play in the NHL until he weights 245 pounds. He isn't that raw. He could play in the NHL this year. I think he makes the team next year. At most he is 2 years away.
For his size, he needs to get to at least 200 to 205 MINIMUM..and that'll take more than 1 year.

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07-14-2013, 06:15 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Those numbers are highly refutable and would not hold up well under any circumstance. I wouldn't put any weight into them at all. As for the coach and GM, I'd say show me your books. There been a lot of times where GMs and coaches have talked up there own players to help ensure a better draft position.
That very well could be the case, but Kyle and Sheldon are both of a new breed of hockey guys. They are pretty progressive and aren't often in the business of making mindless boastful statements that would temporarily pump their program up - they are more focused on making decisions objectively with the goal of a championship in mind. But you have your opinion, doubt this will change it.

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07-14-2013, 06:38 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by B A T M A N View Post
For his size, he needs to get to at least 200 to 205 MINIMUM..and that'll take more than 1 year.
Hey..I can put on 10 lbs during the Christmas holidays. It shouldn't take a year to put on that weight. It's a measly 15 lbs for him to reach 200.

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07-14-2013, 06:42 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
No, I think its nuts that people think he can't play in the NHL until he weights 245 pounds. He isn't that raw. He could play in the NHL this year. I think he makes the team next year. At most he is 2 years away.
Certainly many smaller lesser developed guys have played in the NHL, and certainly Nurse is talented and could play in the NHL this year but it would not be what's best for the Oilers or for Nurse. Same probably goes for next year although each player's progression is unique and should be treated on a case by case basis. He'll very likely develop better getting more minutes playing in all situations in the Soo. He doesn't need to be huge but as evidenced by his play at development camp he needs to add some weight to play his game at the pro level against bigger, stronger, faster players.

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07-14-2013, 06:47 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Hey..I can put on 10 lbs during the Christmas holidays. It shouldn't take a year to put on that weight. It's a measly 15 lbs for him to reach 200.
It's not about just putting on weight, it's about putting on sport specific muscle and most players are only able to put on between 4-7 pounds of "hockey muscle" in an off-season, and less so if they're already physically developed and want to maintain their speed/quickness.

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07-14-2013, 06:58 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Delicious Pancakes View Post
It's not about just putting on weight, it's about putting on sport specific muscle and most players are only able to put on between 4-7 pounds of "hockey muscle" in an off-season, and less so if they're already physically developed and want to maintain their speed/quickness.
Yeah, I know that their weight is quite a bit different than the average Joe's.
The thing about Nurse is, though, that considering that he has very good athletic gene's, he could be much stronger than his weight factor would indicate.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in training camp.

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07-14-2013, 07:03 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Dorian2 View Post
Yeah, I know that their weight is quite a bit different than the average Joe's.
The thing about Nurse is, though, that considering that he has very good athletic gene's, he could be much stronger than his weight factor would indicate.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens in training camp.
Wasn't he getting rag-dolled by much smaller guys in camp?

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07-14-2013, 07:11 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by B A T M A N View Post
I lol'd

I'm not trying to be pessimistic. To be a top defender in this league you need top notch hockey IQ, and again I don't think it's something he'll magically pick up if he doesn't have it. Am I really that out to lunch with that thought process?
Nope, you can have low hockey IQ and still be a top dman in the league as long as you have the skills, however you can't be a Norris candidate though. Dion Phaneuf and Zach Bogosian are examples of guys with all skill, no brain. They seem to be faring pretty well. They are however, outclassed by Ryan Suter and Alex Pietrangelo.

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07-14-2013, 07:14 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by B A T M A N View Post
Wasn't he getting rag-dolled by much smaller guys in camp?
I don't know. Was he?

If so, then he is obviously not strong enough to make the team. Well, not obviously. There could be other factors involved in him being "rag-dolled", like the type of drill it was or something.

The only way to tell is by watching him in an actual game, not in a practice facility.

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07-14-2013, 07:17 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by B A T M A N View Post
Wasn't he getting rag-dolled by much smaller guys in camp?
One of the guys who ran him over was John McCarron. He's 6'2'' 230lbs.

He definitely isn't small. Even by NHL standards.


Petryk, the other, is no slouch at 6'1'' 211lbs either.

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07-14-2013, 07:25 PM
  #418
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Maybe he can take some of that cream that helped Barry Bonds hit all those dingers...

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07-14-2013, 07:38 PM
  #419
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You guys vastly underestimate how easy it is to put on muscle mass. 20 lbs is what you can do in a year of strenuous training let alone one summer. 10 lbs over Christmas break? You're insane. Unless they are taking massive amounts of anabolic steroids they'll just be growing into it.

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07-14-2013, 08:41 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
One of the guys who ran him over was John McCarron. He's 6'2'' 230lbs.

He definitely isn't small. Even by NHL standards.


Petryk, the other, is no slouch at 6'1'' 211lbs either.
Ah okay, just read that he was losing puck battles a lot. Didn't know they were against pretty big guys though.

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07-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by Matt Ryan View Post
You guys vastly underestimate how easy it is to put on muscle mass. 20 lbs is what you can do in a year of strenuous training let alone one summer. 10 lbs over Christmas break? You're insane. Unless they are taking massive amounts of anabolic steroids they'll just be growing into it.
lol it was a joke, about eating lots and gaining 10 lbs around the midsection during the holidays

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07-14-2013, 09:21 PM
  #422
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Ah okay, just read that he was losing puck battles a lot. Didn't know they were against pretty big guys though.
If you didn't know why did you say earlier it was against much smaller guys? Why put this mis-information out there if you don't know?

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07-14-2013, 09:40 PM
  #423
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No, I think its nuts that people think he can't play in the NHL until he weights 245 pounds. He isn't that raw. He could play in the NHL this year. I think he makes the team next year. At most he is 2 years away.
I feel like you might be referring to a post I made several days ago saying that Nurse would be much better off breaking into the NHL at around 220lbs, which would either take a miraculous summer or more realistically a couple years. I didn't see anyone say he needs to be 245lbs anywhere.

I also don't think it's ridiculous to say that Nurse will be around 220lbs when he breaks into the NHL. He said himself he's looking to bulk up big time, his frame is large as well so when he fills out he'll probably be around 210-220lbs. For his style of game he's going to have to be around that size to dish out hits against NHL players, it's not going to happen for him if he's only 185-190lbs.

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07-15-2013, 12:32 AM
  #424
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Pietrangelo is more than functional at 6'3 205lb.

If Nurse can get to 205-210 he should be fine.

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07-15-2013, 12:36 AM
  #425
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Pietrangelo is more than functional at 6'3 205lb.

If Nurse can get to 205-210 he should be fine.
They play very different types of games though.

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