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What Jokerit joing the KHL means for Sweden.

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Old
07-13-2013, 09:48 AM
  #101
svartgul
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Swedes being sour about our steady stream of developed NHL players is like us being pissed about Swedish actors making it in Hollywood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
As I see it, swedish hokey is based on developing players for NHL, sad swedish clubs sell/release their top players for penny. As I understand, main source of resources (money) are development fees from NHL, tv-contracts of SHL/Allsvenskan and maybe government money (?). Do you consider this model as sustainable? Do you think that Sweden will be top producer of talent forever? If not, what then??
1. The reimbursments recieved from NHL draftees is chump change in the scale of things.

2. The Swedish model ftw. It's not for nothing economists around the world are dissecting and trying to draw lessons from our way of structuring our sociey for almost a hundred years now, receiving praise both from the left and right, even the freaking Heritage Foundation. Kidding aside, if you think the Swedish hockey program is in any kind of dire straits you need a reality check. We've never produced more and better players than now.

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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Sweden does not want to join KHL, I respect it, no problem with it.
Liar, liar pants on fire. But please, don't stop your proselytizing, it's such good entertainment.

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07-13-2013, 09:53 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Until you realize most of us are more than fine with that, you comming here trying to argue with us is 100% pointless. You see problems in things that we see no problems in.
I have no problem with it, try to answer Qs at #98

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07-13-2013, 10:00 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I have no problem with it, try to answer Qs at #98
No. Your questions are based on unlikely scenarios to happen. It's pointless.

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07-13-2013, 10:23 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
No. Your questions are based on unlikely scenarios to happen. It's pointless.
Your point of view which are respect.

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07-13-2013, 11:04 AM
  #105
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The one proverb fits this situation: Who stood for a moment stands aloof

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07-13-2013, 11:34 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
After reading KHL=WHA thread I want to write somenthing about this.

WHA tried to rival NHL, to establish second league in NA, maybe to merge later. NHL won, money won.

KHL wants to change euro hockey, which is based on domestic leagues. Who wil win? I bet on money. The Q is, who has money?

As I see it, swedish hokey is based on developing players for NHL, sad swedish clubs sell/release their top players for penny. As I understand, main source of resources (money) are development fees from NHL, tv-contracts of SHL/Allsvenskan and maybe government money (?). Do you consider this model as sustainable?
Pretty poor comparison between NHL vs. WHA and SHL vs. KHL. SHL does not exist do compete with KHL and does not need "to win" to survive, the Swedish league will survive regardless of what KHL does. We will always have a domestic league. Understand?

Swedish hockey gets revenue from the TV-deal, sponsors and attandence and carry themselfes (well, except for Leksand and a few others ). Payment from NHL is just bread crumbs. And no, the Swedish league is not based on producing for the NHL. It is based on producing for Swedish hockey and its fans. The model is sustainable and it always will be.

But Swedish hockey wants to grow of course, preferably within our own system - not somebody elses. What one or two teams might do for themselves, for example joining the KHL is up to them, but the Swedish league will never fold to the KHL, nor will the Finish.

And I promise you, when it comes to develop the domestic leagues and the domestic hockey - if both Finland and Sweden are desperate for a change and new flows of revenue, they will look to each other and not the KHL. It doesnt mather how many $$ the KHL throws around since there are so few markets in Finland and Sweden that could carry a KHL team (KHL would not be interested). And the fact that it would be half way to suicide for many Swedish clubs doing so.

Your idea of KHL devour the domestic leagues of Sweden and Finland is just preposterous and delusional.


Last edited by icing: 07-13-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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07-13-2013, 11:35 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swosh View Post
the one proverb fits this situation: Who stood for a moment stands aloof
?

-----

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Old
07-13-2013, 11:36 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swosh View Post
The one proverb fits this situation: Who stood for a moment stands aloof
Or: he who laughs last, laughs longest.

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07-13-2013, 11:47 AM
  #109
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Post taken from another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
I kinda agree, there won't be a champion in the KHL other than Russian Oligarchs or SKA...once ska is the champion 2-3 times would suffice Medvedev, some other teams may get a chance, but I am pretty sure CSKA will be pushed to win 1-2-3 as well. How is Slovan, Jokerit, Lev to compete with teams where budgets are 5-6 times theirs? and if needed an extra envelope or two are passed the right way....
Interesting point. Swedish and Finnish team would not have the budget to ever really launch a serious challenge for the KHL title.

So our teams would be like the trophies, that are just there to make up the numbers as the oligarch backed teams rack up championships..

Doesn't sound like a lot of fun really.

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07-13-2013, 11:49 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
Pretty poor comparison between NHL vs. WHA and SHL vs. KHL. SHL does not exist do compete with KHL and does not need "to win" to survive, the Swedish league will survive regardless of what KHL does. We will always have a domestic league. Understand?

Swedish hockey gets revenue from the TV-deal, sponsors and attandence and carry themselfes (well, except for Leksand and a few others ). Payment from NHL is just bread crumbs. And no, the Swedish league is not based on producing for the NHL. It is based on producing for Swedish hockey and its fans. The model is sustainable and it always will be.

But Swedish hockey wants to grow of course, preferably within our own system - not somebody elses. What one or two teams might do for themselves, for example joining the KHL is up to them, but the Swedish league will never fold to the KHL, nor will the Finish.

And I promise you, when it comes to develop the domestic leagues and the domestic hockey - if both Finland and Sweden are desperate for a change and new flows of revenue, they will look to each other and not the KHL. It doesnt mather how many $$ the KHL throws around since there are so few markets in Finland and Sweden that could carry a KHL team (KHL would not be interested). And the fact that it would be half way to suicide for many Swedish clubs doing so.

Your idea of KHL devour the domestic leagues of Sweden and Finland is just preposterous and delusional.
Funny how he preaches about Europeans needing to be unified against the NHL (why?), yet has no problems with KHL fleecing Finnish and Swedish clubs of players for less money nor assimilating the clubs into KHL, thus deteriorating the domestic leagues and player development even more. To stat that Sweden is suffering from all those NHL players is absolutely preposterous/asinine. The effects of that will be seen in future best-on-best international tournaments, when other European nations can barely ice a full squad of NHL players, while Swedes can start talking about "B-teams".

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07-13-2013, 11:54 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentothal View Post
Post taken from another thread:



Interesting point. Swedish and Finnish team would not have the budget to ever really launch a serious challenge for the KHL title.

So our teams would be like the trophies, that are just there to make up the numbers as the oligarch backed teams rack up championships..

Doesn't sound like a lot of fun really.
Or become like Riga: have all the best players bought out by bigger teams after every season.

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07-13-2013, 11:56 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
Pretty poor comparison between NHL vs. WHA and SHL vs. KHL. SHL does not exist do compete with KHL and does not need "to win" to survive, the Swedish league will survive regardless of what KHL does. We will always have a domestic league. Understand?

Swedish hockey gets revenue from the TV-deal, sponsors and attandence and carry themselfes (well, except for Leksand and a few others ). Payment from NHL is just bread crumbs. And no, the Swedish league is not based on producing for the NHL. It is based on producing for Swedish hockey and its fans. The model is sustainable and it always will be.

But Swedish hockey wants to grow of course, preferably within our own system - not somebody elses. What one or two teams might do for themselves, for example joining the KHL is up to them, but the Swedish league will never fold to the KHL, nor will the Finish.

And I promise you, when it comes to develop the domestic leagues and the domestic hockey - if both Finland and Sweden are desperate for a change and new flows of revenue, they will look to each other and not the KHL. It doesnt mather how many $$ the KHL throws around since there are so few markets in Finland and Sweden that could carry a KHL team (KHL would not be interested). And the fact that it would be half way to suicide for many Swedish clubs doing so.

Your idea of KHL devour the domestic leagues of Sweden and Finland is just preposterous and delusional.
Does not make sense to reply to someone who does not want to hear you.

I will just reply to bold part - I have never said it. If you understand my posts like this, I recommend you to re-read them.


Last edited by vorky: 07-13-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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07-13-2013, 12:02 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Or: he who laughs last, laughs longest.
he who laughs last, didnt get joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
?-----
"Who stood for a moment stands aloof (Kdo chvíli stál, stojí opodál.)" It is proverb used in business. If u dont adopt on situation, u go bankrupt or everybody are ahead

And i dont want troll u. Just one little touch


Last edited by swosh: 07-14-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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07-13-2013, 02:31 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swosh View Post
The one proverb fits this situation: Who stood for a moment stands aloof
Problem with that here is that the businesses aren't on the same level. What's considered a good product in less attractive countries are seldom considered good in more developed ones. We see this often, especially in sweden.
It's easy to understand that many slavic countries accept a league like the khl, it's upgrading from nothing to something. Problem is we already have something here. But to be fair swedish mentality wouldn't accept whats considered criminals running things even if we had nothing.
They would be literally eaten alive by media. And the only way they could "adopt" to sweden would be to basically change who they are and properly develop their society for about 50+ years.
Not the right place for your proverb ^^

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07-13-2013, 02:40 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swosh View Post
he who laughs last, didnt get joke


"Who stood for a moment stands aloof" It is proverb used in business. If u dont adopt on situation, u go bankrupt or everybody are ahead

And i dont want troll u. Just one little touch
I thought it was something like that, the words just didn't make any sense.

I guess it is more like "the one who stands still is left behind".

No one plans to stand still though. We might just don't want to move in the same direction.

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07-13-2013, 04:17 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
I thought it was something like that, the words just didn't make any sense.

I guess it is more like "the one who stands still is left behind".

No one plans to stand still though. We might just don't want to move in the same direction.
"Only fools rush in"

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07-14-2013, 10:40 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
After reading KHL=WHA thread I want to write somenthing about this.

As I see it, swedish hokey is based on developing players for NHL, sad swedish clubs sell/release their top players for penny. As I understand, main source of resources (money) are development fees from NHL, tv-contracts of SHL/Allsvenskan and maybe government money (?). Do you consider this model as sustainable? Do you think that Sweden will be top producer of talent forever? If not, what then??

Sweden does not want to join KHL, I respect it, no problem with it.

Imagine that Sweden is not main producer of talent and KHL establishes itself in Finland, Germany maybe Norway (Denmark).

1) Swedish clubs would earn less money from NHL, because no/less talent is there. Or some guys go to KHL instead (??)

2) Can SHL tv-deals grow? What if KHL is there, can SHL tv-deals grow?

Remember of Viasat - ok, not broadcasting now, but what if.

3) Can government fund the development system if "NHL money" and "tv-deals" are not there in today´s amount?

Try to think about this and then ask yourself what is better - to join/cooperate with KHL or not. Sweden is not Russia which can fund hockey with big loses for decades.
)

1) Talent lvl is fine and will be fine. The money from NHL teams to sign players is nothing for SHL teams but its better then what they get from KHL.

2) SHL TV deals can grow and probably will with the new one. What do teams get from KHL on tv deal 0

3) Government should never come in as a solution if the TV money and other sponsor money dwindle. But some times it happends eg Leksand but that shouldnt be the norm.

KHL right now offers no more money than they will get as a SHL team. So why should they join KHL?

Right now if a SHL temas joins KHL they get no tv money and about the same income on sponsors, gate revenue vill probably decrease and travel costs skyrocket.

So i tell you plese try to specify KHL earning and put them agianst SHL earnings.

SHL teams today have a turnover from 60 milj sek to close to 180 m sek.

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07-14-2013, 02:33 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicnavigator View Post
)

1) Talent lvl is fine and will be fine. The money from NHL teams to sign players is nothing for SHL teams but its better then what they get from KHL.
Talent level - good for Sweden if true
How much money did Farjestad get for Salak? Less than 300 000 USD? I can not believe that.

Quote:
2) SHL TV deals can grow and probably will with the new one. What do teams get from KHL on tv deal 0
Good for you if true

Quote:
3) Government should never come in as a solution if the TV money and other sponsor money dwindle. But some times it happends eg Leksand but that shouldnt be the norm.
I like your government


Quote:
KHL right now offers no more money than they will get as a SHL team. So why should they join KHL?

Right now if a SHL temas joins KHL they get no tv money and about the same income on sponsors, gate revenue vill probably decrease and travel costs skyrocket.

So i tell you plese try to specify KHL earning and put them agianst SHL earnings.

SHL teams today have a turnover from 60 milj sek to close to 180 m sek.
You are right, KHL clubs get no tv money now, but they will in future. We will see if more than SHL clubs (I heard about 3 mil euro)

I understand big 4 SHL clubs, or all SHL clubs, why they dont want to join KHL. Joining KHL does not make sense for them NOW. Maybe they will regret it in future? I dont know. On the other hand I would see a reason for Malmo/Djurgaarden to join KHL. They have no chance to promote to SHL (Malmo), attendance has declined, financial problems. I am repeating myself now, so I am going to stop.

Yes, there are a few KHL clubs which care about marketing. This attitude has nothing to do with KHL as league but with mentality of russian clubs. They dont care about marketing, souvenirs, because they dont have to. Look at Slovan Bratislava, they earned a lot of money from ticketing. If the club cared more about merchendising, income would be higher.

SKA earns 9 mil USD per season from merchendising, tickets. SKA is going to sign big sponsorship deal with Reebok. A club does not have to spend 30 mil USD for salaries like SKA.

Remember KHL will share revenues from tv-deals and sponsorship in future.

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07-14-2013, 02:43 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
On the other hand I would see a reason for Malmo/Djurgaarden to join KHL. They have no chance to promote to SHL (Malmo), attendance has declined, financial problems. I am repeating myself now, so I am going to stop.
This is what I've been saying all the time. The only possibility of a swedish club joining in a near future is if it's a KHL or nothing type of situation.

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07-15-2013, 03:29 AM
  #120
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Leksand is a special case, and needs some extra clarification. They went through a reconstruction earlier this year, as they had trouble with their liquidity. During this period, the Swedish state went in guaranteed some of the salaries of the club. This guarantee is there to make sure that the players (or workers, to use a more general term) won't lose out completely if their employer goes bankrupt. This is not government 'sponsoring' as I suspect some (that are unfamiliar with the case) might think, since it actually is a loan (with interest) that needs to be paid back to the state if a reconstruction is successful.

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07-15-2013, 07:18 AM
  #121
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First i did burn all my Sm-Liiga Jokeri jerseys, but now im starting to get over it and waiting to see my team in the KHL. If i could make the decisions i would have stayed in Finnish elite league

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07-28-2013, 07:22 AM
  #122
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"I know that a few swedish clubs already expressed interest to join KHL," Harkimo said, president of Jokerit.
http://www.sovsport.ru/news/text-item/628422


I just translated article, nothing more.

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07-28-2013, 07:29 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
"I know that a few swedish clubs already expressed interest to join KHL," Harkimo said, president of Jokerit.
http://www.sovsport.ru/news/text-item/628422


I just translated article, nothing more.
I thought everyone here already knew Malmö expressed interest when they were in serious risk of disbanding because of money. It's not a top club with good finances wanting to join.

Come on, we've already worked through this like 10 times before..

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07-28-2013, 11:33 AM
  #124
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Im wondering if ill going to support Jokerit after this season. What would you do if this same happens to your team?

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07-28-2013, 11:42 AM
  #125
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Put 100% of my hockey attention to NHL instead of having it 50/50 like now.

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