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Old
07-12-2013, 03:42 PM
  #151
dingbathero
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Not sure why I feel compelled to respond to you, but since this is the premise of your entire argument, may I ask, how long have we had this bottom five defense that you speak of?

As recently as 2011, our defense was considered elite. Possibly even the best in the league.
Did you mean Goaltending... even then...??

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07-12-2013, 03:46 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Not to mention our defense is definitely not bottom 5 now.
Yeah, this past season is the only year where you could possibly argue our defense was bottom five, and that was solely because of injuries.

It's funny because no one ever believed our defense was bad until the Penguins series in 2012. But since then, everyone seems to think our defenders are useless bums. That series was quite clearly an anomaly, and yet, it seems to be the overriding opinion by the masses.

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07-12-2013, 06:05 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
It's funny because no one ever believed our defense was bad until the Penguins series in 2012. But since then, everyone seems to think our defenders are useless bums. That series was quite clearly an anomaly, and yet, it seems to be the overriding opinion by the masses.
I fully agree.

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07-12-2013, 06:30 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
Did you mean Goaltending... even then...??
Well Leighton was terrible no arguments there however he was serviceable due the defense that year being so dominate.

It's a shame Emery went down with injury that year, I would have liked our chances a lot better with him in net in the Finals.

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07-12-2013, 07:47 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Yeah, this past season is the only year where you could possibly argue our defense was bottom five, and that was solely because of injuries.

It's funny because no one ever believed our defense was bad until the Penguins series in 2012. But since then, everyone seems to think our defenders are useless bums. That series was quite clearly an anomaly, and yet, it seems to be the overriding opinion by the masses.
Depending on context...I agree. Our actual defensemen are not that bad, our team defense is atrocious.

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07-12-2013, 08:02 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Depending on context...I agree. Our actual defensemen are not that bad, our team defense is atrocious.
Our team defense was largely terrible last year because of injuries. And our team defense was not atrocious in 2011-12 until we got to the playoffs. And before that our defense was pretty much outstanding.


And I'll also say, when you have no confidence in your goaltender, you end up scrambling in your own zone. The team had absolutely no composure in the D zone pretty much because of Bryzgalov. Give them a chance in front of a real goaltender, and it will look different.

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07-13-2013, 05:43 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Depending on context...I agree. Our actual defensemen are not that bad, our team defense is atrocious.
If we only look at 5v5, we was 15th best in shots against us per 60 per min played. The Flyers real problem was that we had the 3rd worst even strength sv%. Simply put, the defense was average, but the goaltending was atrocious (and Steve "worstgoaltenderthelastfewyears" Mason actually improved us in that part.)

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07-13-2013, 09:35 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Mjoedgaard View Post
If we only look at 5v5, we was 15th best in shots against us per 60 per min played. The Flyers real problem was that we had the 3rd worst even strength sv%. Simply put, the defense was average, but the goaltending was atrocious (and Steve "worstgoaltenderthelastfewyears" Mason actually improved us in that part.)
Hilariously enough, our "average" defense was actually much better than it appeared. We were fairly easily a top 10 defense in the NHL statistically until blueliners started dropping right after the halfway point.

We've only gotten significantly better both in net, on the blueline, and among our forwards' two-way play this offseason.

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07-13-2013, 10:07 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Hilariously enough, our "average" defense was actually much better than it appeared. We were fairly easily a top 10 defense in the NHL statistically until blueliners started dropping right after the halfway point.

We've only gotten significantly better both in net, on the blueline, and among our forwards' two-way play this offseason.
They were also playing ridiculously conservative to shelter Bryzgalov, thus the offense suffered immensely. I'm not saying you're wrong, because the facts support you, but they sucked playing that way. It was totally anti-Lavy.

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07-13-2013, 10:17 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
They were also playing ridiculously conservative to shelter Bryzgalov, thus the offense suffered immensely. I'm not saying you're wrong, because the facts support you, but they sucked playing that way. It was totally anti-Lavy.
I thought some of the worst games of the season (well, after they shed the lockout fatness) came after the 5 day break when they tried to go into a full-on defensive style. It was awful. Combine a goalie who's going to allow goals anyway with a team that was essentially neutralizing their strengths in that sort of system, and the results were ugly.

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07-13-2013, 10:21 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I thought some of the worst games of the season (well, after they shed the lockout fatness) came after the 5 day break when they tried to go into a full-on defensive style. It was awful.
They had zero direction. It was a complete 180 from the way Lavy wanted to run the team. That decision definitely came from above as a bad attempt to polish the 52 million dollar turd in net.

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07-14-2013, 12:15 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Not sure why I feel compelled to respond to you, but since this is the premise of your entire argument, may I ask, how long have we had this bottom five defense that you speak of?

As recently as 2011, our defense was considered elite. Possibly even the best in the league.
This defense has deteriorated over the last couple of years.
Pronger was hurt, Carle left and we failed to replace either of them with
a PMD, capable of running Lavi's system. Schenn is good defenseman, but not PMD.

On paper the defense looks good, but on the ice last year it was atrocious.
They could not get the puck out of their defensive zone.
Every time the other team started cycling the puck in our zone,
I thought it was going to end up in our goal.

Our team defense was terrible, some of that is Bryz.
Some of it is the drastic change to defensive scheme.
Some of it is personnel, the defensive pairings were not well balanced.
Too many stay at home defenders not enough PMD, IMO.

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07-14-2013, 02:12 AM
  #163
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The D weren't really the problem with the breakouts. The main issue looked like the forwards, combined with a terrible breakout plan...go up boards, hit opposition? Try to pass up the same side through that opposition. The D would often win the puck and board battles, pass the puck, and then things would get ugly. The forwards were awful at getting into or through the neutral zone.

It was annoying to watch other teams get out of their zone and compare it to the Flyers. The Flyers forwards would drift to the puck and form a cluster****. Other teams would have a winger or the center hanging around for support with the other winger as an outlet on the other side of the ice. When things got hairy on one side they would get the puck to the other. We just weren't doing that. We were trying to just bang it through.

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07-14-2013, 07:10 AM
  #164
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If the coach hasn't recognized that problem and made adjustments for this upcoming season, they will miss the playoffs again and he will be fired.

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07-14-2013, 11:23 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
If the coach hasn't recognized that problem and made adjustments for this upcoming season, they will miss the playoffs again and he will be fired.
injuries? pmd? goal tending? All have been addressed as best they could be. What am I missing?

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07-14-2013, 11:52 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
If the coach hasn't recognized that problem and made adjustments for this upcoming season, they will miss the playoffs again and he will be fired.
It took him an amazingly long time to figure out one of the forwards needed to hang back in case the home-run stretch pass wasn't there; like 2-3 months of last season, through the offseason and lockout, and into the first couple weeks of this season. Let's hope they catch this one more quickly.

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injuries? pmd? goal tending? All have been addressed as best they could be. What am I missing?
Coach, not GM.

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07-14-2013, 11:58 AM
  #167
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At the end of the season Hartnell said that Lavi's new system with the extra layer of D was confusing to the players for most of the season. I forget his exact words but there was an article with an excerpt and it was pretty revealing. Hopefully, this upcoming season with a full camp and Bryz gone they will be able to implement something less confusing. The GM and owner didn't help either with their public mandates that Lavi tighten it up to insulate crapola Bryz.....

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07-14-2013, 07:15 PM
  #168
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Hopefully Vinny and Streit walked in and said "Coach, your (now our) system sucks. As a Bolt/Isle we walked in here expected to pop 4 goals per game on you. Sometimes we got more than that. Tighten it up."

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07-14-2013, 08:45 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The D weren't really the problem with the breakouts. The main issue looked like the forwards, combined with a terrible breakout plan...go up boards, hit opposition? Try to pass up the same side through that opposition. The D would often win the puck and board battles, pass the puck, and then things would get ugly. The forwards were awful at getting into or through the neutral zone.

It was annoying to watch other teams get out of their zone and compare it to the Flyers. The Flyers forwards would drift to the puck and form a cluster****. Other teams would have a winger or the center hanging around for support with the other winger as an outlet on the other side of the ice. When things got hairy on one side they would get the puck to the other. We just weren't doing that. We were trying to just bang it through.
You can either bring it out methodically, as a group, like Boston does, or fire it up to stretch the ice, like Chicago does. Lavy wants to play the latter style, but that leaves the D unsupported deliberately.

As much as he got grief on these boards, we missed Matt Carle's ability move the puck up ice in Lavy's system. That's why Streit's acquisition will help.

It's not that the other guys are that bad at it, they just aren't great.

Our puck movement will improve with Kimmo, Streit and Gus or Mesz anchoring a pairing along with a bigger, more D minded partner.

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07-14-2013, 08:52 PM
  #170
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You can either bring it out methodically, as a group, like Boston does, or fire it up to stretch the ice, like Chicago does. Lavy wants to play the latter style, but that leaves the D unsupported deliberately.

As much as he got grief on these boards, we missed Matt Carle's ability move the puck up ice in Lavy's system. That's why Streit's acquisition will help.

It's not that the other guys are that bad at it, they just aren't great.

Our puck movement will improve with Kimmo, Streit and Gus or Mesz anchoring a pairing along with a bigger, more D minded partner.
Well, the stretch pass failings went back to the 2011-2012 season, when we had more PMD. It just wasn't working; it continued to fail this year (when you have even less PMD that won't help), so Lavi finally started getting a forward to hang back to collect the puck if the stretch pass wasn't there.

Unfortunately that is the only adjustment I noticed. More needed to be made, and they weren't

Or, perhaps he tried to get them to change but the players just didn't get it. Either way, there was clearly a systemic issue which I thought was more glaring than the D's passing ability.

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07-15-2013, 03:57 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Hopefully Vinny and Streit walked in and said "Coach, your (now our) system sucks. As a Bolt/Isle we walked in here expected to pop 4 goals per game on you. Sometimes we got more than that. Tighten it up."
I'm pretty sure they didn't.

It seems kind of ******** to a take a system that works...Mash it and slice it up into different make shift pieces...Take out random ingredients while meshing in others...Throw it all back together into the pot...And then serve it up as something credible...

We had a legitimate system and a legitimate direction. Then Bryzgalov happened.

We paid an "elite" goaltender a ****ton of money to come in, complain about everything else without ever admitting that he was at fault, and eventually cave to his demands.

We brought in players. We shipped out players. We changed the system.

We did this all for a whiny goaltender that we just paid a ****ton of money to never be seen in our colors again.

The system was proven effective. The coach was proven effective. The general manager was proven effective. The team assembled was proven effective.

Bryzgalov was defective. I can't stress enough how stupid it seems to blame everyone but the boy crying wolf.

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07-15-2013, 04:39 PM
  #172
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I'm pretty sure they didn't.

It seems kind of ******** to a take a system that works...Mash it and slice it up into different make shift pieces...Take out random ingredients while meshing in others...Throw it all back together into the pot...And then serve it up as something credible...

We had a legitimate system and a legitimate direction. Then Bryzgalov happened.

We paid an "elite" goaltender a ****ton of money to come in, complain about everything else without ever admitting that he was at fault, and eventually cave to his demands.

We brought in players. We shipped out players. We changed the system.

We did this all for a whiny goaltender that we just paid a ****ton of money to never be seen in our colors again.

The system was proven effective. The coach was proven effective. The general manager was proven effective. The team assembled was proven effective.

Bryzgalov was defective. I can't stress enough how stupid it seems to blame everyone but the boy crying wolf.
I still don't think it was just Bryz, but we'll find out this year. How much of it was Pronger? How much was the two-way play of Richards, Carter, Betts, Lappy, Powe, etc.?

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07-15-2013, 04:47 PM
  #173
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I still don't think it was just Bryz, but we'll find out this year. How much of it was Pronger? How much was the two-way play of Richards, Carter, Betts, Lappy, Powe, etc.?
Betts, Lappy, Powe...they were replaced.

Richards, Carter, and Pronger were not.

I've said early and often that I think the blow dealt to us by losing those three defensively (and in terms of two-way ability; something that often gets overlooked) was huge.

I don't think however that it was as costly a blow considering the replacements to turn us into a basement level defensive team.

Couturier has stepped up to the plate defensively in an astronomically huge way. The Schenn brothers added physicality, and Luke in particular added some significant defensive play.

We're not at Richards + Carter + Pronger levels, but let's not pretend that we're Blue Jackets of the last decade.

We have talent. We have viable pieces. We're definitely a playoff team, and we would have been this past half season despite injuries had Bryzgalov had been anything remotely close to legitimate.

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07-15-2013, 04:58 PM
  #174
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Betts, Lappy, Powe...they were replaced.

Richards, Carter, and Pronger were not.

I've said early and often that I think the blow dealt to us by losing those three defensively (and in terms of two-way ability; something that often gets overlooked) was huge.

I don't think however that it was as costly a blow considering the replacements to turn us into a basement level defensive team.

Couturier has stepped up to the plate defensively in an astronomically huge way. The Schenn brothers added physicality, and Luke in particular added some significant defensive play.

We're not at Richards + Carter + Pronger levels, but let's not pretend that we're Blue Jackets of the last decade.

We have talent. We have viable pieces. We're definitely a playoff team, and we would have been this past half season despite injuries had Bryzgalov had been anything remotely close to legitimate.
Yeah still not buying it. This team was horrible 5 on 5 last year, and they were horrible defensively before the AHLers came up and (I assume) Lavy simplified things. Bryz played fairly well for large chunks last season.

I do agree that maybe the team didn't play as hard in front of Bryz, which is shameful. Play hard no matter what, you're professionals with limited time making a lot of money, and fans are paying a lot to see that.

But ultimately, Mason and Emery's abilities to move the puck will drastically help this team's defense with progressing out of the zone, and hopefully instill some confidence back in the squad.

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07-15-2013, 05:10 PM
  #175
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Yeah still not buying it. This team was horrible 5 on 5 last year, and they were horrible defensively before the AHLers came up and (I assume) Lavy simplified things. Bryz played fairly well for large chunks last season.
None of this is true except the 5 on 5 thing. We were horrible at 5 on 5 offensively because we couldn't move the puck out of our zone and, minus Giroux, not a sole could win a faceoff.

Offense also begins and ends in the middle. Schenn and Couturier aren't particularly the most adept offensive dynamos at this point in time. They're very young to have to shoulder the responsibility of two-way play while committing significant offensive numbers.

And this rumor that we were better defensively after the AHLers were called up and Lavi "simplified things" needs to stop immediately. It's just not true.

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I do agree that maybe the team didn't play as hard in front of Bryz, which is shameful. Play hard no matter what, you're professionals with limited time making a lot of money, and fans are paying a lot to see that.
We played plenty hard in front of Bryzgalov. Our numbers, until the injury bug set in, were top 10 in shots allowed per game. On top of that we were one of the top penalized teams in the game. Since shots against and scoring chances are directly tied together, we did a fine job of limiting scoring chances against Bryz.

Unfortunately for us, every shot against is a scoring chance for the opposing team when Bryz is in net.

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But ultimately, Mason and Emery's abilities to move the puck will drastically help this team's defense with progressing out of the zone, and hopefully instill some confidence back in the squad.
As will the puck-moving abilities of Streit and Gustafsson.

As will the puck-control from Lecavalier at the dot.

Our 5 on 5 game should be much improved. It begins with puck and movement.

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