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Steven Santini vs Samuel Morin

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Old
07-15-2013, 08:31 PM
  #26
Jason MacIsaac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I'd take the guy who has a reasonable track record of production.

Santini has been described as a ZERO offense player.

While I don't think the gap is huge, the upside is infinitely higher for Morin.
I know almost nothing about Santini but Morin has pretty much no offense. He has a nice breakout pass and his offense is pretty much nill. I love him as a #3 defensmen for a very very very long time. I really see Chara similarities on the defensive side of the puck, only more mobile.

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07-15-2013, 08:36 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by KJS14 View Post
Ok, my mistake. You can certainly teach positioning, form, timing, etc.




You can certainly teach him HOW to use it effectively. Whether he is able to use it effectively or not is a different story.
quite true, just look at Myers for example he's 6"8 but plays like he's 5"5, last year on a powerplay vs MTL he literally couldn't push Gallagher out off the way.

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07-15-2013, 08:41 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPT View Post
quite true, just look at Myers for example he's 6"8 but plays like he's 5"5, last year on a powerplay vs MTL he literally couldn't push Gallagher out off the way.
I haven't watched Morin much, but from what I hear he skates very well for a big dman, has a good first pass, and is pretty physical. On the other hand, I've heard his shot is below average and he's not very effective once in the offensive zone.

I haven't really seen or heard much about Santini, so I wouldn't know how to compare them.

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Old
07-15-2013, 09:07 PM
  #29
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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Morin seems like a late bloomer, so maybe he can develop a bit of an offensive game. I think Oleksiak is a good example for him to follow, as the Big Rig developed one in his last year of junior and the AHL.

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07-15-2013, 09:17 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPT View Post
I have no clue how that has any effect on the discussion. But no I didn't watch Stuart as a USNTDP member AT THE TIME , but I have been able to re-watch 1 or 2 games and no, they aren't similar at all IMO. Obviously if you have seen Stuart more than once or twice then you could have a better grasp of the situation.
Of course you don't.

I watched Stuart for two years in the program. He was just like Santini. He appeared to be a heady, defense-first stalwart. The problem is, as he moved up and faced tougher competition, his reactions and thought process didn't keep up with the pace of the game. Sometimes high IQ at lower levels do not project to higher levels and players don't keep up with the faster pace of the game. I'm not saying this will happen to Santini, but it is always a possibility with almost every prospect. Especially on defense. This is why it's so hard to project defensemen.

Out of curiosity, how were you able to re-watch USNTDP games from the early 2000s?
Quote:
Morin has more tools yes, but Santini has the tool box if that makes any sense. The challenge for Morin would be to learn how to use those tools in which situation, Santini already has quite a grasp of that concept. I really don't think Morin's rise makes him better than Santini, offense can be taught/improved, however defensive awareness and all of Santini's prime assets can not.
You have it backwards, buddy. Offense cannot be taught, defense can. Despite that, I doubt you've watched Morin, because he is just as solid as Santini defensively and is similarly a defense-first player. The difference is he has more physical maturing to do and once he grows into his body he will really hit his stride. He is already very sound and smart defensively. He isn't an offensive puck rusher, but he has a good first pass, and very good instincts. In the end, I think he'll be just as effective as Santini defensively, if not more so due to a larger frame and wingspan which will make it harder for players to beat him one-on-one.

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Old
07-16-2013, 05:27 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konk View Post
Of course you don't.

I watched Stuart for two years in the program. He was just like Santini. He appeared to be a heady, defense-first stalwart. The problem is, as he moved up and faced tougher competition, his reactions and thought process didn't keep up with the pace of the game. Sometimes high IQ at lower levels do not project to higher levels and players don't keep up with the faster pace of the game. I'm not saying this will happen to Santini, but it is always a possibility with almost every prospect. Especially on defense. This is why it's so hard to project defensemen.

Out of curiosity, how were you able to re-watch USNTDP games from the early 2000s?

You have it backwards, buddy. Offense cannot be taught, defense can. Despite that, I doubt you've watched Morin, because he is just as solid as Santini defensively and is similarly a defense-first player. The difference is he has more physical maturing to do and once he grows into his body he will really hit his stride. He is already very sound and smart defensively. He isn't an offensive puck rusher, but he has a good first pass, and very good instincts. In the end, I think he'll be just as effective as Santini defensively, if not more so due to a larger frame and wingspan which will make it harder for players to beat him one-on-one.
Look what I posted above, that's what I meant by developing offense, smaller things that can slowly make a defensman better and smarter offensively. I agree with everything you're saying about Morin so far everything you've said is spot on, but you're being really harsh on Santini because he can do everything Morin can do AND is smarter Defensively (just MO) from what I have seen of Santini he rarely gets noticed, quiet,unassuming,responsive and overall solid all-around D-man. Look I agree with what you said and Agree that Morin is a better prospect (just a little better than Santini) but I just thought you were harsh.
I watched a couple WJC games, not USNDTP (sorry should've precised that)

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Old
07-16-2013, 09:52 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPT View Post
Look what I posted above, that's what I meant by developing offense, smaller things that can slowly make a defensman better and smarter offensively. I agree with everything you're saying about Morin so far everything you've said is spot on, but you're being really harsh on Santini because he can do everything Morin can do AND is smarter Defensively (just MO) from what I have seen of Santini he rarely gets noticed, quiet,unassuming,responsive and overall solid all-around D-man. Look I agree with what you said and Agree that Morin is a better prospect (just a little better than Santini) but I just thought you were harsh.
I watched a couple WJC games, not USNDTP (sorry should've precised that)
Fair enough. We'll see.

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Old
07-16-2013, 10:42 AM
  #33
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Can someone shed a little information about this Santini guy, why did his value go up so much after the draft?

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07-16-2013, 01:59 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraSphere View Post
Can someone shed a little information about this Santini guy, why did his value go up so much after the draft?
From what I gather it's not that his value went up, it has always been high but teams are hesitant to pick a defensive specialist in the 1st round of the draft. That's not to say his worth isn't as high as many in the late first round. Defensmen that can eat a lot of tough 5 on 5 and PK minutes are very valuable.

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Old
07-16-2013, 02:12 PM
  #35
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For what it's worth, Santini has made the Stuart comparison himself.

There is a lot to like about his attitude, above everything else.

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Old
07-16-2013, 02:13 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPT View Post
Can you teach a player how to properly use his size?
lol of all things that are teachable, you pick this?

Easy answer is yes. Especially with Pronger mentoring him.

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Old
07-20-2013, 05:59 PM
  #37
Roo Mad Bro
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I'll take the player who was drafted 31 spots higher just 3 weeks ago, thank you very much.

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Old
07-20-2013, 06:41 PM
  #38
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Love Santini and thought Morin was a big stretch at 11. I'll take Morin just based on trajectory. He was barely draft eligible by birth date and showed almost meteoric development this year.

We'll be in a much better place to assess this in one calendar year I think.

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Old
07-20-2013, 07:37 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
I'll take the player who was drafted 31 spots higher just 3 weeks ago, thank you very much.
Sound reasoning, bro

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Old
07-20-2013, 07:53 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
Sound reasoning, bro
Lettuce break this down:

Morin: Drafted at 11 by one of the best drafting teams (especially 1st rounders) in the NHL a little over 3 weeks ago. Was the 4th dman taken.

Santini: Drafted at 42. Was the 13th dman taken.

A better, and more apt thread would be Hagg vs Santini. But again, Hagg should win because he was taken a spot over Santini. The Flyers had 2 opportunities to draft Santini, and chose not to. Maybe the 80% voting towards Morin in the poll section should be enough reasoning for you, bro.

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Old
07-20-2013, 08:07 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Lettuce break this down:

Morin: Drafted at 11 by one of the best drafting teams (especially 1st rounders) in the NHL a little over 3 weeks ago. Was the 4th dman taken.

Santini: Drafted at 42. Was the 13th dman taken.

A better, and more apt thread would be Hagg vs Santini. But again, Hagg should win because he was taken a spot over Santini. The Flyers had 2 opportunities to draft Santini, and chose not to. Maybe the 80% voting towards Morin in the poll section should be enough reasoning for you, bro.
It only takes one team to reach for a player. In a lot of guides, Santini was rated higher.

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Old
07-20-2013, 08:43 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMantzas View Post
It only takes one team to reach for a player. In a lot of guides, Santini was rated higher.
That's not true at all. I'm not getting into the pissing match of who turns into a better player because it's way too early to judge how they end up but as of now 5 out of 6 scouting publications think Morin is the better prospect of the two.

Morin:
Button- 13th
MacKenzie- 17th
CSS- 23rd NAS
ISS- 32nd
THN- 20th
McKeen's- 10th

Santini:
Button- 31st
MacKenzie- 42nd
CSS- 47th NAS
ISS- 17th
THN- 65th
McKeen's- 41st

Morin's average was 19 & Santini's was 42.

Hagg:
Button- 48th
MacKenzie- 27th
CSS- 8th IS
ISS- 31st
THN- 12th
McKeen's- 17th

Hagg's average was 27 & Santini's was 39 (I took out the CSS ranking because they rank Euro & NA players separately).

I threw Hagg in as well because I wasn't sure if you were talking Morin vs Santini or Hagg vs Santini in that post.


Last edited by LegionOfDoom91: 07-20-2013 at 09:04 PM.
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Old
07-20-2013, 09:02 PM
  #43
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I think Morin has the potential to be one of the best players from the draft but he also has a higher bust potential and less likely to reach his potential then Santini

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Old
07-20-2013, 09:09 PM
  #44
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i think santini was the safer pick, especially picking him up where the devils did. morin has the potential to be the better defensemen, but as of right now theres absolutely no doubt santini is who you want on your team. morin is the better fighter though, not that it means as much, has santini ever been in a fight? hed better learn quick

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07-20-2013, 09:34 PM
  #45
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Personal opinion,

Santini is slightly ahead of Morin right now and is currently the safer prospect. However, Morin has a much much higher ceiling than Santini and because of this he is arguably the better prospect.

For me, it comes down to how Morin adapts as he moves up and faces players closer to his physical stature. He's going to find that he can no longer easily out muscle everyone, and his skating will have to improve to compensate.

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Old
07-21-2013, 03:32 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJS14 View Post
I haven't watched Morin much, but from what I hear he skates very well for a big dman, has a good first pass, and is pretty physical. On the other hand, I've heard his shot is below average and he's not very effective once in the offensive zone.

I haven't really seen or heard much about Santini, so I wouldn't know how to compare them.
False. Accuracy needs work, but it is heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Morin seems like a late bloomer, so maybe he can develop a bit of an offensive game. I think Oleksiak is a good example for him to follow, as the Big Rig developed one in his last year of junior and the AHL.
Chara and Myers are often the names associated with Morin, but Oleksiak is the guy I look at as hope Morin's offensive game develops. Both 6'7, Oleksiak has 50 pounds on Morin right now, but Morin just turned 18 and while I don't know if he'll add 50 pounds, 30-35 isn't out of the question. Haven't seen a ton of Oleksiak, but from what I remember he was a pretty good skater for a big man much like Morin. Oleksiak put up 15 points in 56 USHL games in his age 17 season. Morin had 23 points in 52 games including 7 points in 6 playoff games this past season in the QMJHL (his 17 year old season). Oleksiak's offensive output improved every year after from college, to the OHL, and then to the AHL.

I think definitively saying Morin won't develop offensively is premature. As we've seen with a lot of 6'6 defenseman the offensive game takes time to develop. These guys are learning to adjust to their bodies as well as the competition they are playing. Chara, Myers, Hedman, Oleksiak, all did it. That doesn't mean Morin will, but don't count him out either.

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Old
07-21-2013, 04:52 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I'd take the guy who has a reasonable track record of production.

Santini has been described as a ZERO offense player.

While I don't think the gap is huge, the upside is infinitely higher for Morin.


OK there.

Morin can barely make a simple pass out of the zone. And since when did points = better hands for a defenseman?

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07-21-2013, 04:57 PM
  #48
hab 4ever
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post


OK there.

Morin can barely make a simple pass out of the zone. And since when did points = better hands for a defenseman?
Did you see Morin play at all? He has a very solid breakout pass.

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07-21-2013, 05:03 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post


OK there.

Morin can barely make a simple pass out of the zone. And since when did points = better hands for a defenseman?
He has more upside plain and simple.

Good skating 6'7" defensman with an ever improving offensive game with a mean streak.

It's higher upside than a guy whose scouting reports often read Zero offense.

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Old
07-21-2013, 05:07 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hab 4ever View Post
Did you see Morin play at all? He has a very solid breakout pass.
I'd say he hasn't. I've got 5 on my PVR.

I'm not projecting either guy as PP QB's. just I see a lot more potential in Morin.

Santini seems like one of those guys who is already a finished product (or close to it) physically.

Morin looks like he's just starting up a steep development curve. Will he continue? I'm not sure, but at this point I'd say his potential to improve is better than Santini.

I like Santini too. Pro typical Devil (and that is a compliment).

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