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Kings Prospect #4

View Poll Results: Best Prospect
C Andy Andreoff 2 2.74%
D Derek Forbort 6 8.22%
D Kevin Gravel 4 5.48%
G Martin Jones 0 0%
LW Maxim Kitsyn 3 4.11%
RW Brandon Kozun 2 2.74%
LW Michael Mersch 0 0%
LW Nikolai Prokhorkin 1 1.37%
C Nick Shore 0 0%
LW Valentin Zykov 55 75.34%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-15-2013, 08:54 PM
  #1
Holden Caulfield
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Kings Prospect #4

1. RW Tyler Toffoli 96.3% (LW Valentin Zykov 3.7%, NA)
Vote in: Kitsyn 11, Prokhorkin 3, Bartosak 1, Andreoff 1

2. LW Tanner Pearson 40.8% (LW Valentin Zykov 34.2%, C Linden Vey 15.8%)
Vote in: Prokhorkin 8, Bartosak 2, Miller 2, Andreoff 2, Berube 1, Roach 1, Hyka 1

3. C Linden Vey 44.3% (LW Valentin Zykov 41.8%, D Derek Forbort 5.1%)
Vote in: Andreoff 12, Bartosak 2, Deslauriers 2, Miller 1

Oh and voted Zykov, add G Patrik Bartosak (for 3rd straight time). Write in who should be added next.

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07-15-2013, 09:01 PM
  #2
King'sPawn
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Voted Gravel.

Add Ebert.

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07-15-2013, 09:05 PM
  #3
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add campbell going to start early this year to try and get him on the ballet earlier

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07-15-2013, 09:06 PM
  #4
CNS
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Already vehemently disagree with this list and we're only at 4. Zykov. And it really isn't close.

Still don't care who gets added next.

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07-15-2013, 09:38 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
Already vehemently disagree with this list and we're only at 4. Zykov. And it really isn't close.

Still don't care who gets added next.
What part can you that strongly be against already? Pretty much knew the top 4 would be some combo of Pearson, Vey, Toffoli, and Zykov. Can't really see how anyone else is at the same level as those 4.

Voted Zykov, add Bartosak.

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07-15-2013, 09:43 PM
  #6
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Boted Zykov
Add Ebert

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07-15-2013, 10:07 PM
  #7
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
What part can you that strongly be against already? Pretty much knew the top 4 would be some combo of Pearson, Vey, Toffoli, and Zykov. Can't really see how anyone else is at the same level as those 4.

Voted Zykov, add Bartosak.
I expected Pearson to win at 2 but I STRONGLY believe Zykov is our 2nd best prospect. And then Vey gets voted over him too?! No way. Zykov has true first line potential and fits our system perfectly. And I feel he's likely to make that projection. Pearson and Vey both top out as 2nd liners. I'm not a huge fan of Pearson. In fact, I'd probably have Vey over Pearson. But the fact that Zykov is 4th to me is just a huge problem. But of course, it's just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree. They always do.

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07-15-2013, 10:53 PM
  #8
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Add Deslauriers.

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07-15-2013, 11:02 PM
  #9
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voted Zykov
add Miller

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07-15-2013, 11:03 PM
  #10
King'sPawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
I expected Pearson to win at 2 but I STRONGLY believe Zykov is our 2nd best prospect. And then Vey gets voted over him too?! No way. Zykov has true first line potential and fits our system perfectly. And I feel he's likely to make that projection. Pearson and Vey both top out as 2nd liners. I'm not a huge fan of Pearson. In fact, I'd probably have Vey over Pearson. But the fact that Zykov is 4th to me is just a huge problem. But of course, it's just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree. They always do.
I have a hard time agreeing that an 18 year-old has a higher potential and likelihood to reach that potential than two players who have already been given a chance to play in the NHL playoffs, and another player who anchored the top line in the AHL with the other two players.

Nothing against Zykov. It's certainly debatable, and I've spent a good two hours ranking and trying to re-rank the Kings prospects to try to make it as complete as possible.

I think he does have the potential, but his individual skills have to greatly improve before he can even be effective at the AHL THEN the NHL. There are three players who already had a good deal of success not just at juniors but in the minors.

FWIW, Zykov is in my top 10. He'll undoubtedly move up my list as he proves more. I still think Prokhorkin has more potential, though the biggest concern for him will be if playing overseas will hinder his development. Andy Andreoff is also ahead of my list... even though he doesn't have as much potential, he is at least knocking on the door to the NHL. I get the same feeling about Gravel.

I also think Shore has developed leaps and bounds, and his progress in skills over the past year have bumped him up on my list.

Consequently, Zykov is #8 in my list at the moment. But I've already spent a lot of time trying to make my list and am still not 100% happy with it.

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07-15-2013, 11:08 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I have a hard time agreeing that an 18 year-old has a higher potential and likelihood to reach that potential than two players who have already been given a chance to play in the NHL playoffs, and another player who anchored the top line in the AHL with the other two players.

Nothing against Zykov. It's certainly debatable, and I've spent a good two hours ranking and trying to re-rank the Kings prospects to try to make it as complete as possible.

I think he does have the potential, but his individual skills have to greatly improve before he can even be effective at the AHL THEN the NHL. There are three players who already had a good deal of success not just at juniors but in the minors.

FWIW, Zykov is in my top 10. He'll undoubtedly move up my list as he proves more. I still think Prokhorkin has more potential, though the biggest concern for him will be if playing overseas will hinder his development. Andy Andreoff is also ahead of my list... even though he doesn't have as much potential, he is at least knocking on the door to the NHL. I get the same feeling about Gravel.

I also think Shore has developed leaps and bounds, and his progress in skills over the past year have bumped him up on my list.

Consequently, Zykov is #8 in my list at the moment. But I've already spent a lot of time trying to make my list and am still not 100% happy with it.
You...have Zykov...at 8.

Sorry but your list must be terrible. So you're list is essentially "Who's closest to the NHL?" That's wrong. While sure that is a big factor, potential has to factor in as well. And for that reason alone, there's no way Zykov isn't above Andy. And I'm probably Prokhorkin's biggest fan on this board. Not sure if you saw but I was calling for him as one of my 5 to take with the 30th overall pick last year. How he slipped to the 4th round is beyond me. And yet, Zykov to me is still the better prospect.

Let me be clear - this isn't at all about Zykov being the shiny new toy. The kid can flat out PLAY, fits our system to a T (something that a lot of people really underestimate), and I think is quite likely to make it. His work ethic is great and he has a dedication to playing the NA game. I get and totally understand that everyone's list will be different but having him at 8 just seems bat **** crazy to me.

Also, nowhere did I ever say he has higher potential or likely to make it than Toffoli.

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07-15-2013, 11:38 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
You...have Zykov...at 8.

Sorry but your list must be terrible. So you're list is essentially "Who's closest to the NHL?" That's wrong. While sure that is a big factor, potential has to factor in as well. And for that reason alone, there's no way Zykov isn't above Andy. And I'm probably Prokhorkin's biggest fan on this board. Not sure if you saw but I was calling for him as one of my 5 to take with the 30th overall pick last year. How he slipped to the 4th round is beyond me. And yet, Zykov to me is still the better prospect.

Let me be clear - this isn't at all about Zykov being the shiny new toy. The kid can flat out PLAY, fits our system to a T (something that a lot of people really underestimate), and I think is quite likely to make it. His work ethic is great and he has a dedication to playing the NA game. I get and totally understand that everyone's list will be different but having him at 8 just seems bat **** crazy to me.

Also, nowhere did I ever say he has higher potential or likely to make it than Toffoli.
I've seen enough players who have shown "potential" that flame out, so yes, I put a little more weight on players who are closer and more likely to reach their potential, and as I said, it's a work in progress.

That doesn't make it any more right or wrong. It just makes it my opinion. You know, the thing you have too.

As I said, he still has a long ways to go. If you feel that the potential he has outweighs that, good for you. Doesn't give you a right to be rude to anyone who disagrees with you, especially when that person explains the rationale.

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07-16-2013, 01:19 AM
  #13
Holden Caulfield
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cns I agree with you, but I don't think it is that outlandish to have Pearson or Vey above him. As you can see Zykov is tearing up this poll, very close loss in the last two.

Some people like what is perceived to be the higher upside of a Pearson or Vey. That's fine. I am not sure if I agree with the massive upside you see in Zykov, I see more of a 2nd line power forward, whereas Pearson and Vey have more offensive upside (but less complete games).

What I love about Zykov is that I think he will be a versatile player that can play many different roles. However of concern might be the "flash in the pan" thing. If you look back he struggled mightily the season before not really contributing in the KHL, a weaker junior league than the QMJHL. I know his game is more suited to NA game, but still that is of some concern. Another strong season in Q and I think he will start to get more love.

Honestly I think you can make a good case for any of Zykov, Pearson, Vey as #2 prospect. Not sure a real strong case can be made for any other prospects though sorry King'sPawn. Not sure how 4th line potential (Andreoff), up and down less proven Prokhorkin, or college #3/4 potential Gravel (I am a huge fan though, he would be a solid consideration at #5) can slide above any of those 3.

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07-16-2013, 01:46 AM
  #14
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07-16-2013, 02:08 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Honestly I think you can make a good case for any of Zykov, Pearson, Vey as #2 prospect. Not sure a real strong case can be made for any other prospects though sorry King'sPawn. Not sure how 4th line potential (Andreoff), up and down less proven Prokhorkin, or college #3/4 potential Gravel (I am a huge fan though, he would be a solid consideration at #5) can slide above any of those 3.
I can understand and respect that. I'm still not completely happy with my list, but I do think my rankings are defensible.

I think Andreoff has third line potential, perhaps even as high as Stoll. He still has a way to go there, but he is a very safe prospect.

Prokhorkin's skill, style, and body type just seems like it will translate to the NHL better.

Gravel is a very strong and defensively disciplined defenseman, who has progressed quite well with his skills from his first development camp. I think he has a very good chance of not just making the NHL, but also playing in a top 4 role.

Zykov, while having good top 6 potential, has years before he even has a chance to sniff the NHL. That may seem unfair, and I KNOW people are going to take THIS out of context, but players like Patrick O'Sullivan and Oscar Moller showed a LOT of promise at the same age... as long as they just added strength.

Gamers who want to play in the NHL don't automatically make it and have a great chance of having an impact in the NHL. That's why I put a bit more weight on NHL readiness than potential.

But I can understand putting Zykov at #2 for the reasons listed above. The seamless transition to the NA game is encouraging. I just can't justify to myself, based off my past experiences and observations, listing him very high.

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07-16-2013, 03:12 AM
  #16
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Zykov add Ebert. I really enjoy KP's posts which are always a great read. Anyone that puts that much effort into a free message board deserves some respect in my eyes.
This poll is full of interpretation. Would Schremp be our top prospect if we just drafted him. Probably lol


Last edited by drugold: 07-16-2013 at 03:17 AM.
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07-16-2013, 04:21 AM
  #17
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07-16-2013, 07:40 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Zykov, while having good top 6 potential, has years before he even has a chance to sniff the NHL. That may seem unfair, and I KNOW people are going to take THIS out of context, but players like Patrick O'Sullivan and Oscar Moller showed a LOT of promise at the same age... as long as they just added strength.

Gamers who want to play in the NHL don't automatically make it and have a great chance of having an impact in the NHL. That's why I put a bit more weight on NHL readiness than potential.

But I can understand putting Zykov at #2 for the reasons listed above. The seamless transition to the NA game is encouraging. I just can't justify to myself, based off my past experiences and observations, listing him very high.
Comparing O'Sullivan and Moller to Zykov is really short changing him. Both Sully and Oscar had significant questions on whether they would make the NHL. O'Sullivan had all the mental issues and people constantly questioned his desire and drive to make it. If Moller was 2-3 inches taller he'd be an NHL forward right now. Zykov has none of those questions, sure his skating needs work and he's still somewhat raw. But he has NHL skill, NHL size and from all the interviews I've seen the drive and determination to be an NHL player is there. He's a much more complete prospect than either O'Sullivan or Moller were at the same age. Just can't compare those three because the numbers are similar.

Quote:
I expected Pearson to win at 2 but I STRONGLY believe Zykov is our 2nd best prospect. And then Vey gets voted over him too?! No way. Zykov has true first line potential and fits our system perfectly. And I feel he's likely to make that projection. Pearson and Vey both top out as 2nd liners. I'm not a huge fan of Pearson. In fact, I'd probably have Vey over Pearson. But the fact that Zykov is 4th to me is just a huge problem. But of course, it's just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree. They always do.
I agree for the most part with this reasoning. My top 4 is; Toffoli, Pearson, Zykov, Vey. It's difficult for me to justify putting Zykov over two guys that are basically NHL players and have playoff experience (even if it is 1 game.) But yeah I can see any mix of those 4 and I'd listen to arguements for and against any of them being lower or higher. I'm not mad with Vey at 3 because I don't think the gap is that big between him and Zykov. I was expecting your reasoning for disagreeing so strongly to be due to having someone like Forbort (really curious to see were he lands on this list,) Porkins, Gravel, Shore, or someone else that wouldn't even be on peoples radars yet in your top 4.

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07-16-2013, 07:52 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
I agree for the most part with this reasoning. My top 4 is; Toffoli, Pearson, Zykov, Vey. It's difficult for me to justify putting Zykov over two guys that are basically NHL players and have playoff experience (even if it is 1 game.) But yeah I can see any mix of those 4 and I'd listen to arguements for and against any of them being lower or higher. I'm not mad with Vey at 3 because I don't think the gap is that big between him and Zykov. I was expecting your reasoning for disagreeing so strongly to be due to having someone like Forbort (really curious to see were he lands on this list,) Porkins, Gravel, Shore, or someone else that wouldn't even be on peoples radars yet in your top 4.
Okay I have to say c'mon here. Pearson played ONE game. Let's not act like that means he's totally NHL ready or he would have played more than one. I'm not trying to say he's NOT but one playoff game does not mean you are ready to break out in to the league. He'll have to earn his spot in camp, which he could do.

The reason I just cannot agree with this is because of the way I regard prospects. I take in to account potential, likelyhood to reach potential, and how they'd fit our system. Zykov rates high in all 3 fields for me. I think his potential is higher than that of Pearson, who I am not high on at all. I was pretty damn upset at that pick and only time will tell if he ends up better than the 5 guys I wanted in that spot. Pearson wasn't even the 6th guy. There were 5 guys then I just didn't care and we didn't get one of the five. Anyways.

The next pick is going to be the hardest one for me so far. Voted Toffoli, Zykov, Zykov, Zykov. Now I don't know whether I go Prokhorkin or Gravel. So many people will probably give their Russian spiel about Porkins but if they watched him in the games he played in Manchester earlier this year, they'd realize why I went from loving him to loving him even more.

He looked great in his short time in Manchester. Sure his points weren't insane in the small sample size but he was still adjusting to a new culture, new living arrangements, new team, new system, and new ice. And he still looked fantastic.

And then of course you have Gravel, who I see as a guy who will be paired with Slava or Drew for a loooooong time to come. Yes, he's not flashy and he's a defensive defenseman but he's a hell of a player and you need guys like him to win.

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07-16-2013, 09:15 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
Comparing O'Sullivan and Moller to Zykov is really short changing him. Both Sully and Oscar had significant questions on whether they would make the NHL. O'Sullivan had all the mental issues and people constantly questioned his desire and drive to make it. If Moller was 2-3 inches taller he'd be an NHL forward right now. Zykov has none of those questions, sure his skating needs work and he's still somewhat raw. But he has NHL skill, NHL size and from all the interviews I've seen the drive and determination to be an NHL player is there. He's a much more complete prospect than either O'Sullivan or Moller were at the same age. Just can't compare those three because the numbers are similar.
And if I was comparing career trajectories, I would agree with these points. I am simply explaining why NHL readiness > potential to me

Edit: caught drugold's post and just want to say thank you for the kind words


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07-16-2013, 12:51 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnshockey View Post
You...have Zykov...at 8.

Sorry but your list must be terrible. So you're list is essentially "Who's closest to the NHL?" That's wrong. While sure that is a big factor, potential has to factor in as well.... I get and totally understand that everyone's list will be different but having him at 8 just seems bat **** crazy to me.
This is why sometimes I'd like to see the comments turned off on polls like these.

You don't have to agree with someone's list, you can debate it, but saying it must be terrible and seems bat **** crazy doesn't provide anything to the debate.

We get it, you've been spouting wood for Porkins and Zykov since the first thread, that's fine. Good for you. Others don't agree and that's there right, certainly not worthy of a few and being bashed.

Btw, add Miller (and yeah, go ahead and call that a dumb move too like you have before).

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07-16-2013, 01:00 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
This is why sometimes I'd like to see the comments turned off on polls like these.

You don't have to agree with someone's list, you can debate it, but saying it must be terrible and seems bat **** crazy doesn't provide anything to the debate.

We get it, you've been spouting wood for Porkins and Zykov since the first thread, that's fine. Good for you. Others don't agree and that's there right, certainly not worthy of a few and being bashed.

Btw, add Miller (and yeah, go ahead and call that a dumb move too like you have before).
[mod]

And it's not like I called his list insane and didn't explain it. I explained why it truly is crazy to me. By my reasoning and the way I feel prospects should be judged is a completely different way than KP. I respect him and his opinion but I absolutely and completely disagree with it.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 07-16-2013 at 01:12 PM. Reason: do not discuss that please
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07-16-2013, 01:29 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
And if I was comparing career trajectories, I would agree with these points. I am simply explaining why NHL readiness > potential to me

Edit: caught drugold's post and just want to say thank you for the kind words
I guess I just don't get the grading system then... I mean the examples you used were both servicable NHL players by what 21-22? Sure they had their careers de-railed due to their issues but they were both high potential, NHL ready at a young age, and yet they are less in your view than say Andreoff who while solid tops out at probably a third liner? I get you have to factor in NHL readiness into judging prospects, but it shouldn't to me be the sole determining foctor or really even a large part of picking the best. I mean in your own words you like Andreoff because "he is a very safe prospect."
At some point you have to stop playing it safe and try to swing for the fences. Trevor Lewis was once thought to be a 2nd line two-way center, and instead he's a solid 3rd line checking forward. Doesn't make him a bust. Just means he didn't reach his full ceiling. Zykov in my eyes is at worse a 3rd/4th liner in the NHL. He has all the tools to make it even if his scoring doesn't translate to the NHL level.

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07-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I have a hard time agreeing that an 18 year-old has a higher potential and likelihood to reach that potential than two players who have already been given a chance to play in the NHL playoffs, and another player who anchored the top line in the AHL with the other two players.

Nothing against Zykov. It's certainly debatable, and I've spent a good two hours ranking and trying to re-rank the Kings prospects to try to make it as complete as possible.

I think he does have the potential, but his individual skills have to greatly improve before he can even be effective at the AHL THEN the NHL. There are three players who already had a good deal of success not just at juniors but in the minors.

FWIW, Zykov is in my top 10. He'll undoubtedly move up my list as he proves more. I still think Prokhorkin has more potential, though the biggest concern for him will be if playing overseas will hinder his development. Andy Andreoff is also ahead of my list... even though he doesn't have as much potential, he is at least knocking on the door to the NHL. I get the same feeling about Gravel.

I also think Shore has developed leaps and bounds, and his progress in skills over the past year have bumped him up on my list.

Consequently, Zykov is #8 in my list at the moment. But I've already spent a lot of time trying to make my list and am still not 100% happy with it.
I completely agree with KP on this post on soooo many levels. Most (not all) voters here see a shiny new toy and the new guy that has created some buzz, but at this moment I just don't see Zykov getting anywhere close to playing in the NHL for at least 3 or 4 years. I hope he proves me wrong. He is barely 18 now. Barely. He fell to #37 for a reason unless everyone else is blind, Russian or not. We'll see.

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07-16-2013, 01:51 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by regulate View Post
I completely agree with KP on this post on soooo many levels. Most (not all) voters here see a shiny new toy and the new guy that has created some buzz, but at this moment I just don't see Zykov getting anywhere close to playing in the NHL for at least 3 or 4 years. I hope he proves me wrong. He is barely 18 now. Barely. He fell to #37 for a reason unless everyone else is blind, Russian or not. We'll see.
Well for me I had Zykov at 14 coming into the draft. He is raw, but has a great skill set and is a safe bet to make the NHL at some point, IMO. He is years away, but in these rankings NHL readiness is but one aspect of the rankings. I rate top potential and likeliness to reach that potential as more important that readiness.

Quote:
14. RW Valentin Zykov (Baie-Comeau Drakkar, QMJHL) - A player that has come out of nowhere this year after a dissapointing season in MHL in 11-12, Zykov has shown that he is more suited to the small rink. He is a strong physical forward, likes to mix it up, loves playing physical. Concerns about upside though.

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