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Old
07-15-2013, 10:28 PM
  #176
sobrien
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
None of this is true except the 5 on 5 thing.
No, most of it was true. Timonen and Coburn were utter garbarge to start the year. Grossmann and Schenn were the lone bright spots defensively. Bryz absolutely played well enough for the team to win many nights. Was he great? No. Was he as bad as you're making him sound? Not even close.

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07-15-2013, 10:53 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
No, most of it was true. Timonen and Coburn were utter garbarge to start the year. Grossmann and Schenn were the lone bright spots defensively. Bryz absolutely played well enough for the team to win many nights. Was he great? No. Was he as bad as you're making him sound? Not even close.
Actually, once again, none of this is true.

I've got statistics to back up my argument.

If I have the statistics on my side, I'm not sure what you have.

Bryzgalov was absolutely and pitifully awful this year.

Grossmann was statistically the worst defensively out of the big four based on CORSI stats. He did however make a lot of big hits and block a ton of shots (funny how Flyers fans tend to assume that that is all there is to defense based on the love for Lauridsen around here). Schenn was behind Timonen and Coburn for the first half of the season and pulled away in the second half. He finished as our best defensive defender. Timonen had a few rough games early but was easily our most consistent defenseman. Coburn was fairly solid through the first half minus a ton of boneheaded penalties, but fell off SUBSTANTIALLY defensively in the second half before getting hurt.

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07-15-2013, 11:00 PM
  #178
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The Flyers were a top 10 offense, scoring 2.75 goals per night even with crap 5v5 performance. They were 23rd in goals against at 2.90. The defense was good enough at limiting chances, at 12th in the league which is remarkable considering how much they got caught in their own end as well as the injuries. Bryzgalov, however, was terrible. If he puts up .920, or even .910 (Basically, if he doesn't allow a crap goal or two almost nightly), that would have made a remarkable difference.

The offense was good enough, shockingly. The defense was tolerable, all things considered. The goaltending brought everything down.

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07-15-2013, 11:12 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Actually, once again, none of this is true.

I've got statistics to back up my argument.

If I have the statistics on my side, I'm not sure what you have.

Bryzgalov was absolutely and pitifully awful this year.

Grossmann was statistically the worst defensively out of the big four based on CORSI stats. He did however make a lot of big hits and block a ton of shots (funny how Flyers fans tend to assume that that is all there is to defense based on the love for Lauridsen around here). Schenn was behind Timonen and Coburn for the first half of the season and pulled away in the second half. He finished as our best defensive defender. Timonen had a few rough games early but was easily our most consistent defenseman. Coburn was fairly solid through the first half minus a ton of boneheaded penalties, but fell off SUBSTANTIALLY defensively in the second half before getting hurt.
So basically what you're saying is...Timonen wasn't good early on, and neither was Coburn (boneheaded penalties, which I was alluding to, don't make you a good player)...which is what I said to start.

And feel free to pull out Bryz's stats, instead of just flailing your arms around saying "I'VE GOT STATS SO YOU'RE WRONG!!!1!!1" I watched the games, I know he played well for some chunks of the season, much better than 2011-2012 (besides March). I'll take that over a sheet full of cumulative numbers every day.

I'm looking at his stats now, and his January was great. February was his worst statistical month but he got his most wins in Feb and his only SHO. He didn't improve from there. Interestingly, his home numbers were really good, and his road numbers were at a near ECHL level.

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07-15-2013, 11:19 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post

I'm looking at his stats now, and his January was great. February was his worst statistical month but he got his most wins in Feb and his only SHO. He didn't improve from there. Interestingly, his home numbers were really good, and his road numbers were at a near ECHL level.
I guess when you suck at faceoffs, having last change matters a lot.

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07-15-2013, 11:31 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
So basically what you're saying is...Timonen wasn't good early on, and neither was Coburn (boneheaded penalties, which I was alluding to, don't make you a good player)...which is what I said to start.
No, what I'm saying is that Timonen (visually) started off a little sluggish. I'm talking like in the first 3-4 games. Soon after he was firing same as always. Both he and Coburn were statistically our best two blueliners defensively through the first half of the season based on CORSI ratings. They also both were top 25 in the NHL at that point among defensemen who had played most of their games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
And feel free to pull out Bryz's stats, instead of just flailing your arms around saying "I'VE GOT STATS SO YOU'RE WRONG!!!1!!1" I watched the games, I know he played well for some chunks of the season, much better than 2011-2012 (besides March). I'll take that over a sheet full of cumulative numbers every day.
I have stats that tell me about the defensive numbers both individually and as a team. We were top 10 in the NHL for most of the season in shots against per game. After injuries crept in, we fell to 12th thanks to our AHL caliber defense.

As far as Bryzgalov "playing well" based on visual tests...that's just not true. We haven't had a competent goaltender since really Emery was consistently between the pipes. Well, Bobrovsky was strong for a stint too, but nobody we've had really has been consistently "strong" in net, so I have to question your visual prowess for such matters considering that you believe Bryzgalov played well.

There were a couple points in the season where Bryzgalov had a good game. There were times when Leighton and Boucher had great games as well. Through the vast majority of games though, Bryzgalov would play about the average you would expect for any back-up NHL goaltender. He would make some big saves that he wasn't expected to make and then he would let in a flopper or two almost every game.

The difference between most starting caliber goaltenders and tweeners/slash back-ups is their consistency in saving those low percentage shots. Every goaltender at this level has the talent to string together a few incredible saves and make it look like they're playing well. It's another matter entirely to consistently make the routine saves that you're expected to make.

For some reason people think it's the other way around; that tweeners can make the routine saves but don't make the big ones. In truth though, great goaltending is all about making routine saves consistently and being in the proper position to turn more of the shots against you into routine saves.

Bryzgalov was terrible. He could flash the leather and make acrobatic saves here and there. That doesn't change the fact that his play was far below what is expected of an NHL-caliber starter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
I'm looking at his stats now, and his January was great. February was his worst statistical month but he got his most wins in Feb and his only SHO. He didn't improve from there. Interestingly, his home numbers were really good, and his road numbers were at a near ECHL level.
Our team was a much better team at home than on the road. Our defense could shelter him better, and we could control the puck better with last change.

When you can't win faceoffs with your entire lineup, you're going to struggle on the road.

Puck-control is huge for us, and now we have Giroux, Lecavalier, and Hall that can win the majority of their draws. Hopefully Couturier improves. That's his only glaring defensive weakness at this point.

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07-15-2013, 11:38 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by CS View Post
No, what I'm saying is that Timonen (visually) started off a little sluggish. I'm talking like in the first 3-4 games. Soon after he was firing same as always. Both he and Coburn were statistically our best two blueliners defensively through the first half of the season based on CORSI ratings. They also both were top 25 in the NHL at that point among defensemen who had played most of their games.



I have stats that tell me about the defensive numbers both individually and as a team. We were top 10 in the NHL for most of the season in shots against per game. After injuries crept in, we fell to 12th thanks to our AHL caliber defense.

As far as Bryzgalov "playing well" based on visual tests...that's just not true. We haven't had a competent goaltender since really Emery was consistently between the pipes. Well, Bobrovsky was strong for a stint too, but nobody we've had really has been consistently "strong" in net, so I have to question your visual prowess for such matters considering that you believe Bryzgalov played well.

There were a couple points in the season where Bryzgalov had a good game. There were times when Leighton and Boucher had great games as well. Through the vast majority of games though, Bryzgalov would play about the average you would expect for any back-up NHL goaltender. He would make some big saves that he wasn't expected to make and then he would let in a flopper or two almost every game.

The difference between most starting caliber goaltenders and tweeners/slash back-ups is their consistency in saving those low percentage shots. Every goaltender at this level has the talent to string together a few incredible saves and make it look like they're playing well. It's another matter entirely to consistently make the routine saves that you're expected to make.

For some reason people think it's the other way around; that tweeners can make the routine saves but don't make the big ones. In truth though, great goaltending is all about making routine saves consistently and being in the proper position to turn more of the shots against you into routine saves.

Bryzgalov was terrible. He could flash the leather and make acrobatic saves here and there. That doesn't change the fact that his play was far below what is expected of an NHL-caliber starter.



Our team was a much better team at home than on the road. Our defense could shelter him better, and we could control the puck better with last change.

When you can't win faceoffs with your entire lineup, you're going to struggle on the road.

Puck-control is huge for us, and now we have Giroux, Lecavalier, and Hall that can win the majority of their draws. Hopefully Couturier improves. That's his only glaring defensive weakness at this point.
Perhaps I jumped to conclusions with what I saw, didn't see enough (likely, working for the Titans during many games), or whatever. I just recall Coburn and Timonen BOTH taking an overabundance of bad/lazy penalties to start the season. I know/agree Timonen was much better as the season went on, and Coburn continued to free-fall

As for Bryz, perhaps my standards for good goaltending are low considering what I've seen the last several years here. Either way, as I stated in the OP, I expect a much better year from the team with the new additions. I won't derail the thread anymore with Bryz defending

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07-15-2013, 11:53 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
As for Bryz, perhaps my standards for good goaltending are low considering what I've seen the last several years here. Either way, as I stated in the OP, I expect a much better year from the team with the new additions. I won't derail the thread anymore with Bryz defending
I find it funny because honestly, I do it myself. When I catch myself thinking about our play now, I try to compare it to what I see from other teams on an average basis when they play against us. Then again, it's not so easy to do sometimes considering that we have an offensive advantage generally.

That said, I find the trend among Flyers fans is to consider our defense bad because they make mistakes, but you'll find that other defensemen around the NHL make as many if not more disastrous blunders. For example, if another team's top line makes a great play to get the puck in a prime scoring location, we would immediately blame our defense rather than compliment their opponent's skill level.

It also seems like we hold blame against them longer than we generally do against goalies for letting in bad goals (Leighton's SCF OT flop as the exception that proves the rule), when in reality it kind of should work the opposite way.

The Flyers defense is very underrated. It has its problems and weaknesses, as does our team defense. We can't be perfect. Even our 2010 team suffered from poor goaltending and a hopelessly fallible 3rd pairing.

That said, we have much improved goaltending this year. We also have much better puck-movement from the back lines including Streit, Coburn slotting in a my comfortable role, and two goaltenders that can play the puck. Puck-control from Lecavalier and Hall for a full season will add to our 5-on-5 play positively both offensively and defensively. Moving Schenn outside adds to our depth, size, and physicality on the outside.

Hopefully everyone stays healthy. I'm hoping for big things this year, and for Lavi to be allowed to re-implement his system going forward. Deviating from that and attempting to coddle a phony between the pipes was the wrong move.

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