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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-16-2013, 02:50 PM
  #126
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I am?

I just completely disagree that having to pay more annually for our best dman is somehow handicapping this team's ability to be competitive.

Nothing comes to to just one contract like that...the Habs will have MORE then enough money to have PK Subban for the best part of his career AND still be able to ice a competitive team.
The next five seasons will be just as good as the five after that (assuming there are no injuries.) And now we'll pay top dollar for all of them instead of giving ourselves a break.

Yes, we're saving a little money now, but now isn't when we'll need the cap space. When will we need that space? In another year or two... right when we'll be paying top dollar for Subban.

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07-16-2013, 02:50 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
We said he was a star and a potential Norris calibre defenceman. He won the Norris so we were right. Paying Subban isn't bad, it's just not as good as paying him less.
You still didn't answer the question...you were right about what?

That he was going to win the Norris?

You really think MB was betting against him winning the Norris? No matter what Subban was going to do this year, it was obvious he was going to get a raise

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07-16-2013, 02:52 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It was pretty well known that that's what he was looking for. Initially I thought he wanted a lot more but it became apparent very quickly that this wasn't the case.

Yes, 25 for 5 would've gone down...

And there's no excuse for paying him as low as we did. At the very least he was owed a heck of a lot more than we paid him this year. Pissing off your star players isn't a good idea. And it will come back to bite us in the ass in the long run.
If that was the case...Subban must be a very happy man today

(P.S. I never heard a comment or read a quote about what Subban and his agent were looking for, just alot of hearsay and conjecture, none of which makes it the truth)

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07-16-2013, 02:53 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
well i f you follow news and media whatsoever, you'd realize that the way PK acted last year was different than the year before, not saying that, much medias did.... so yeah there was a change in his attitude

am i saying that the way he acted before disturb me? NOT at all, i alway's liked PK but the facts are that he change his way last season...

And i'm not saying that Bergevin had anything to do with that...
The only difference is that he was acting less enthusiastic infront of the media. His attitude is 100% the same: energetic and always excited to play and win. Him acting like a robot now infront of media is just by-product of being "thought" to act like a good ol hardworking low iq blue Collar hockey player.

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07-16-2013, 02:54 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I am?

I just completely disagree that having to pay more annually for our best dman is somehow handicapping this team's ability to be competitive.

Nothing comes to to just one contract like that...the Habs will have MORE then enough money to have PK Subban for the best part of his career AND still be able to ice a competitive team.
If Pittsburgh can do it with the contracts of Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Fleury and Neal, i'm sure we can also find a way....

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07-16-2013, 02:54 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I am?

I just completely disagree that having to pay more annually for our best dman is somehow handicapping this team's ability to be competitive.

Nothing comes to to just one contract like that...the Habs will have MORE then enough money to have PK Subban for the best part of his career AND still be able to ice a competitive team.
So I guess you would be fine if the cap hit is 12m a year since it doesn't come down to just one contract and you don't think paying more annually for our best dman handicaps us in any way. Right?

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07-16-2013, 02:55 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
The only difference is that he was acting less enthusiastic infront of the media. His attitude is 100% the same: energetic and always excited to play and win. Him acting like a robot now infront of media is just by-product of being "thought" to act like a good ol hardworking low iq blue Collar hockey player.
So his attitude change... what is the problem?

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07-16-2013, 02:59 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So I guess you would be fine if the cap hit is 12m a year since it doesn't come down to just one contract and you don't think paying more annually for our best dman handicaps us in any way. Right?
So now he's going to be the best paid player in the NHL? Overreacting a bit are we?

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07-16-2013, 03:00 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Then you're clearly not thinking straight. Most people are willing to trade money for security. PK knows that he might get injured tomorrow and never sign another contract again. So he takes less money in order for it to be guaranteed. Hell just look at Ryan White, he could have made more money if he signed his QO, but instead he opted for less money but it being guaranteed (1-way instead of 2-way). It's completely normal.
How does that make any sense?

He, alledgedly I might add, wanted a 5yr/25M deal last year...

He settled for less for the next 2 years (can't recall exact figures)...and next year will likely sign a 7 to 8 year deal that will pay him a minimum of 7M per year.

I know which route I would of rather taken...the one where i'll be making more money

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07-16-2013, 03:04 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There's good evidence to suggest that this was the case.

As usual, the folks who defended the move back then will now cling to some form of Cartesian Skepticism - we can't possibly know anything about anything - to try to argue their point. It's absurd to do this man...

Go back and look at my posts. I initially thought PK was asking for the moon too. I blamed his agent (Meehan's a shark) and argued that he was going to drag this out. It became very quickly apparent though that this wasn't the case. It was reported everywhere what they wanted... You want to say maybe it would've been 26 over 5? Okay, but it was in that range. And I have a hard time PK wouldn't have signed at 5 for 25 esp given what he signed for.

Look at what MB's final offer was. You're going to tell me this was a good decision? Really?

As for cap management... it's definitely key to winning cups.
Look at my post history during Subban's holdout...I was for signing him to a long term contract. I couldn't for the life of me understand why they wouldn't.

It was only after that I began to understand how the course that MB and PK eventually took was actually the best for PK AND the team.

As for the rumored 5/25...it was also rumored he wanted Doughty money. Lesson to be learned? Take whatever is leaked with a grain of salt. I think the route that Subban the deal Subban ended up signing is what's going to be best for him in the long run. He'll make MORE money for a longer period of time.

As far as the cap management, yes it's one of the MANY keys to winning a Cup. It probably comes last after everything I mentioned though. Without even knowing and just guessing off the top of my head, i'll wager that almost ever Stanley Cup winning team since the lockout has been a team that's spent to near the max of the salary cap.

It's not about how much you spend, it's about WHO you spend it on...the team left standing at the end isn't the team that's got the most cap room left, hell, usually, those teams aren't in the playoffs


Last edited by 417: 07-16-2013 at 03:10 PM.
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07-16-2013, 03:05 PM
  #136
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So his attitude change... what is the problem?
Thats not attitude, its superficial garbage. His attitude is that hes classy guy who listens and does what is asked form him. He always has and always will. And thats based on his education and enthusiasm of his parents. Nothing has changed, just people dont give PK much credit, as proven by fans stupidity 6 months ago and still know. Pk has more character and better attitude then MB ever will have/ had. If anyone is teaching someone a lesson on character and proper attitude its PK to MB and all of us.

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07-16-2013, 03:10 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
You still didn't answer the question...you were right about what?

That he was going to win the Norris?

You really think MB was betting against him winning the Norris? No matter what Subban was going to do this year, it was obvious he was going to get a raise
Right that he would be worth more a 25m/5 year contract over the course of the contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
So now he's going to be the best paid player in the NHL? Overreacting a bit are we?
417 is arguing that 3m doesn't matter, so I'm just wondering if there's a limit, if 3m doesn't matter, does 5m?

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
How does that make any sense?

He, alledgedly I might add, wanted a 5yr/25M deal last year...

He settled for less for the next 2 years (can't recall exact figures)...and next year will likely sign a 7 to 8 year deal that will pay him a minimum of 7M per year.

I know which route I would of rather taken...the one where i'll be making more money
And if this season he gets a skull fracture like Blake Geoffrion, or a concussion like Marc Savard, or any other serious debilitating injury he doesn't get to sign that big lucrative contract at all. If he misses half a season last year to a regular injury he's not looking at a huge payday right now either. By signing long term last season he's giving up potential money for guaranteed money.

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07-16-2013, 03:13 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Thats not attitude, its superficial garbage. His attitude is that hes classy guy who listens and does what is asked form him. He always has and always will. And thats based on his education and enthusiasm of his parents. Nothing has changed, just people dont give PK much credit, as proven by fans stupidity 6 months ago and still know. Pk has more character and better attitude then MB ever will have/ had. If anyone is teaching someone a lesson on character and proper attitude its PK to MB and all of us.
call it whatever you want buddy, he DID change and even if it's superficial for you, what he did before got on the nerve of a lot of people including teammates... so it was done by PK for the better....

And i'm finish talking to you, you swallowed too much of the Kool-aid.... who the he*k are you to assess the character of Marc Bergevin whose been praise in an out around the NHL for more than 20 years....

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07-16-2013, 03:14 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The next five seasons will be just as good as the five after that (assuming there are no injuries.) And now we'll pay top dollar for all of them instead of giving ourselves a break.

Yes, we're saving a little money now, but now isn't when we'll need the cap space. When will we need that space? In another year or two... right when we'll be paying top dollar for Subban.
Explain to me how the Pittsburgh Penguins can afford to pay

Sidney Crosby, Evegeni Malkin, Kris Letang, James Neal, Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis

And how the Montreal Canadiens won't be able to afford to pay

Carey Price and PK Subban

Because today, those are the only players scheduled to make north of 6M in the next 3-4 years...

There's MORE then enough money to pay Subban and ice a competitive team...

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07-16-2013, 03:15 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So I guess you would be fine if the cap hit is 12m a year since it doesn't come down to just one contract and you don't think paying more annually for our best dman handicaps us in any way. Right?
In what world will Subban make 12M a year?

I don't see the point in answering a fantasy question...it's not reality.

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07-16-2013, 03:19 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
And if this season he gets a skull fracture like Blake Geoffrion, or a concussion like Marc Savard, or any other serious debilitating injury he doesn't get to sign that big lucrative contract at all. If he misses half a season last year to a regular injury he's not looking at a huge payday right now either. By signing long term last season he's giving up potential money for guaranteed money.
There's an amount of risk to take on BOTH sides when you sign a contract

The risk that Subban took was he was going to take less money, in order to make more in the future. That's a risky proposition because as you said, should anything happen to him injury-wise, he's kind of backed himself into a corner.

Just like MB assumed the risk that if Subban continued on the progression curve that he had been on, odds are that it was going to cost him more to re-sign him next season then it would have at the beginning of this year.

That's how negotiations work...there's risk/reward for both sides

But if things work out like they are supposed to

Subban will be one happy and rich man (most likely the highest paid dman in the NHL) and MB will be more then happy to compensate the best dman in the NHL, like he's supposed to be compensated because HE EARNED IT.

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07-16-2013, 03:19 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
In what world will Subban make 12M a year?

I don't see the point in answering a fantasy question...it's not reality.
It's the basis of your whole argument. Which is that it doesn't matter how much we pay Subban so long as we can still ice a competitive team. If the difference between 5m and 8m a year is irrelevant than so would 8m and 12m.

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07-16-2013, 03:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
There's an amount of risk to take on BOTH sides when you sign a contract

The risk that Subban took was he was going to take less money, in order to make more in the future. That's a risky proposition because as you said, should anything happen to him injury-wise, he's kind of backed himself into a corner.

Just like MB assumed the risk that if Subban continued on the progression curve that he had been on, odds are that it was going to cost him more to re-sign him next season then it would have at the beginning of this year.

That's how negotiations work...there's risk/reward for both sides

But if things work out like they are supposed to

Subban will be one happy and rich man (most likely the highest paid dman in the NHL) and MB will be more then happy to compensate the best dman in the NHL, like he's supposed to be compensated because HE EARNED IT.
Exactly it's risk/reward, Subban was willing to take that risk and only sign for 25/5 and Bergevin wasn't. Since Subban's progression continued and he won the Norris it's clear that Bergevin should have taken that risk.

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07-16-2013, 03:26 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Explain to me how the Pittsburgh Penguins can afford to pay

Sidney Crosby, Evegeni Malkin, Kris Letang, James Neal, Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis

And how the Montreal Canadiens won't be able to afford to pay

Carey Price and PK Subban

Because today, those are the only players scheduled to make north of 6M in the next 3-4 years...

There's MORE then enough money to pay Subban and ice a competitive team...
I still don't get why you don't understand that nobody is arguing we won't have the cap room to sign PK. But that getting a Norris worthy performance at a discounted price of 5-6M is always a BONUS.
It helps us. That's it that's all.

Would you rather have PK+2-3M of free space, or PK+0 space?? It's really not that hard to understand.

Bergevin wanted PK signed to a bridge deal because he wanted to see some things out of him first. He simply didn't know enough on PK or wasn't sold on him. So he insisted on this stupid bridge deal so he can assess his value properly. PK clearly didn't agree with him, which is why there was a hold out. Now PK proved his worth to Bergevin. No problem with that, but everybody is happy when they get stuff at a discount.
If you want to buy this brand new beemer and it's on a 1 week promotion where you'll save 20%, are you not going to be happy about it?? Would you not love to get this discount???

Same freaking thing here. PK was a surefire bet. There was no risk in signing him long term.

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07-16-2013, 03:29 PM
  #145
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8 years 7.5 mil a year would be a bargain.

Since he started playing in the NHL Subban was always second guessed and he always responded well and has shown he's one of the best in the league. Absolutely no reason to wait all year long to sign him.

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07-16-2013, 03:33 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't think people are "villainizing" him at all. Yes, I think they mishandled the situation and I hated the way they treated him. Doesn't mean I think that they're terrible or that they should be fired.

But it's very clear now (as it was to many of us back then) that the guy was lowballed. Why he was lowballed is open to debate but he'd proven himself well beyond what he got. You say his season was surprising? Okay, to a certain extent maybe so. But nobody should be surprised that he had a strong year. He had improved almost game by game last season before coming into this one.

A 5 year 5 mil per was not unreasonable and many of us thought it was a great idea and argued so AT THE TIME.

So don't come here now and blame us for being right about this. And don't tell us we're 'whining' when we turn out to be right. Most of us are mature enough to say when we were wrong and do so all the time. There's no reason for blasting people when they get things right. And they certainly did in this case.

MB was foolish for making the offer he did and now we have to live with the consequencences of that decision. We have every right to rip him for this. You don't like it? Then don't post on a message board. Save yourself the stress and go watch The Bachelorette or something like that.

But getting Norris value production out of a player for 5 million dollars would've given us a huge competitive advantage over the next five years... That's how you build cup winning teams. We cost ourselves 2-3 mil in cap space for no reason.

A few holes in your post:

1) You use hindsight to claim PK was lowballed - plain and simple. Easy to say this after the season he just had.
2) The 5 over 5 number was never substantiated anywhere - strictly opinion and hearsay.
3) What makes you think you will turn out to be right?

If PK has a subpar season over the next couple years, the same people will ***** about his contract whatever it looks like. As much as you want to believe, there is not a science to this. The market sets itself, and is often skewed by ridiculous GM's and their penchant to overpay "names". What is wrong with a GM being firm and wanting to see results from a very young, developing player before wagering the farm? That sounds like good business acumen to me.

The bridge contract was not an insult. If you and your fellow posters who share your opinion are so right, then why was Subban not a target for an offer sheet? (Yes I heard the stories that he would not sign one because he really wanted to be a Hab... blah blah blah). Why did GM's across the league not see his supposed worth like all of you did?

The most damning evidence?

PK SIGNED THE BRIDGE CONTRACT AND ENDED HIS HOLDOUT.

I take it he was not that insulted. Nor will he be when he signs his next deal.

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07-16-2013, 03:34 PM
  #147
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I like how people assume that Subban would've come in this season with the same state of mind with a big, fat contract in hands.

I also like how people can't understand the safest thing to do is what Bergevin did; the Sabres got ****ed big time with Tyler Myers. The Flames got too with Dion Phaneuf to a certain extent.

I also like how people assume the new management team had nothing to do with Subban blooming the way he did last season.

Hindsight is 20/20. When he signed, nobody knew how Subban was going to evolve as a player. What I know though, is that those bonus are completely irrelevant, if you don't have dime-a-dozen players like Gorges who are being paid HUGE amounts of money to bring absolutely nothing to the table... or players like Gionta who are earning 5M a year by not contributing to the identity of our team in any way.

Give me one potential Norris trophy winner who's signed at such a discount in this league. Name one.And then, you'll be able to blame Bergevin for not doing likewise.

Otherwise, you're just complaining about not having something that doesn,t even exist in this league to begin with.

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07-16-2013, 03:38 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
It's the basis of your whole argument. Which is that it doesn't matter how much we pay Subban so long as we can still ice a competitive team. If the difference between 5m and 8m a year is irrelevant than so would 8m and 12m.
Execpt he's never going to make 12M per year...

I mean I get it, Subban is going to make alot more money now then he would have had MB just signed him to a long term deal last January. But that's all it means

He'll be making more money...it doesn't have to mean the team is doomed if we have a GM who knows what the hell he's doing, and I happen to think MB does know what he's doing

Only the poorest GM's let the salary cap handicap their ability to ice competitive teams.

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07-16-2013, 03:39 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by HABsurde View Post
Yeah, cause agents never lies and if your source are Cherry or Healy... thatMs not looking to good.

Give me Bob McKenzie or Pierre Lebrun....

And, of course 5 years would not have been a bridge contract, which your all star goalie and best forward had to endure, so same with PK, it's not the Montreal PK's it's the Montreal Canadiens...
Both those guys said he wanted around 5 mil... so I'm not sure why you doubt this then.

Back when this was going on, they said the Habs were offering 5 mil for two years and Subban wanted about 2-3 more per year. Right in line with what everyone else was saying. Mackenzie figured he wanted something around 25 mil for five years...

This was exactly what everyone else was reporting dude...

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07-16-2013, 03:40 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
I like how people assume that Subban would've come in this season with the same state of mind with a big, fat contract in hands.

I also like how people can't understand the safest thing to do is what Bergevin did; the Sabres got ****ed big time with Tyler Myers. The Flames got too with Dion Phaneuf to a certain extent.

I also like how people assume the new management team had nothing to do with Subban blooming the way he did last season.

Hindsight is 20/20. When he signed, nobody knew how Subban was going to evolve as a player. What I know though, is that those bonus are completely irrelevant, if you don't have dime-a-dozen players like Gorges who are being paid HUGE amounts of money to bring absolutely nothing to the table... or players like Gionta who are earning 5M a year by not contributing to the identity of our team in any way.

Give me one potential Norris trophy winner who's signed at such a discount in this league. Name one.And then, you'll be able to blame Bergevin for not doing likewise.

Otherwise, you're just complaining about not having something that doesn,t even exist in this league to begin with.


Finally some logic instead of would have, could have, should have......

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