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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-16-2013, 04:43 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I still don't get why you don't understand that nobody is arguing we won't have the cap room to sign PK. But that getting a Norris worthy performance at a discounted price of 5-6M is always a BONUS.
It helps us. That's it that's all.

Would you rather have PK+2-3M of free space, or PK+0 space?? It's really not that hard to understand.

Bergevin wanted PK signed to a bridge deal because he wanted to see some things out of him first. He simply didn't know enough on PK or wasn't sold on him. So he insisted on this stupid bridge deal so he can assess his value properly. PK clearly didn't agree with him, which is why there was a hold out. Now PK proved his worth to Bergevin. No problem with that, but everybody is happy when they get stuff at a discount.
If you want to buy this brand new beemer and it's on a 1 week promotion where you'll save 20%, are you not going to be happy about it?? Would you not love to get this discount???

Same freaking thing here. PK was a surefire bet. There was no risk in signing him long term.
That's also a fantasy...whatever PK signs for. There will still be cap space available.

Other teams find ways, there's no reason why the Habs can't

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Old
07-16-2013, 04:54 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Explain to me how the Pittsburgh Penguins can afford to pay

Sidney Crosby, Evegeni Malkin, Kris Letang, James Neal, Chris Kunitz, Pascal Dupuis

And how the Montreal Canadiens won't be able to afford to pay

Carey Price and PK Subban


Because today, those are the only players scheduled to make north of 6M in the next 3-4 years...

There's MORE then enough money to pay Subban and ice a competitive team...
Never said they couldn't pay those guys... I said we were dumb to pay more than we had to.

Look at LA, they paid 2 million for Quick and were able to have space to fill out the roster. That's called managing the cap and it helps out big time when you have a cup contending team (which I think we hope to have someday.)

Sure we can afford those guys... Just would've been nice to have an extra three million per year over the next five to spend on additional players. THAT's how you win. You get more bang for your buck than the other guy.

If you've got Sidney Crosby and Malkin that's another way... I don't think we have those guys in our lineup do we?
Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
A few holes in your post:

1) You use hindsight to claim PK was lowballed - plain and simple. Easy to say this after the season he just had.
2) The 5 over 5 number was never substantiated anywhere - strictly opinion and hearsay.
3) What makes you think you will turn out to be right?
1. You are dead wrong. He was worth a hell of a lot more than the 2.75 we offered him. That isn't hindsight, it's basic reasoning. If you didn't understand this before the year began then you have no idea what you're talking about. He was well worth that money based on the previous two seasons we'd seen from him. Hell we paid Gorges about 150% more than we paid Subban dude. Just give this argument up because you're way out to lunch on this one.

2. It was widely reported by every single reporter with any kind of credibility. Again, you want us to prove to you that water is wet... And like I said, I initially thought Meehan was out to gouge and publicly said so. But that very clearly wasnt' the case and I quickly changed my position. 25 for 5 was what they were looking for... in that range anyway.

3. The same thing that indicated to me that the Gomez trade was terrible... Common sense. Prove to me that the sun will rise tomorrow man... How far do you want to take this silliness? The guy was great in 2012 and in 2013 won the freaking Norris. How much does it take to convince you that he would've been worth 5 mil per year?

I'm already right on this. And I'll continue to be right on this unless he gets hit by a bus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
If PK has a subpar season over the next couple years, the same people will ***** about his contract whatever it looks like. As much as you want to believe, there is not a science to this. The market sets itself, and is often skewed by ridiculous GM's and their penchant to overpay "names". What is wrong with a GM being firm and wanting to see results from a very young, developing player before wagering the farm? That sounds like good business acumen to me.
PK is going to wind up with a contract that likely will pay between 7 and more likely 8 million a year. It's a heck of a lot easier to put up with a subpar season when you're only paying him 5. No matter how you slice it we're going to lose on this.

I could understand it if we knew we were contenders and going for the cup and needed the cap space now. But that wasn't the case... We'll need the cap space down the road. All the more reason to sign him for something reasonable now. Unfortunately, we decided to rip him off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
The bridge contract was not an insult. If you and your fellow posters who share your opinion are so right, then why was Subban not a target for an offer sheet? (Yes I heard the stories that he would not sign one because he really wanted to be a Hab... blah blah blah). Why did GM's across the league not see his supposed worth like all of you did?
2.75 was an insult. It was. The 3.5 that he'll make this year is insulting too.

As for why he didn't get an offer sheet... It's the same reason Jamie Benn didn't get one. The GMs collude together and know that the Habs would match. Why raise salaries across the league for no reason.

I mean no offense by this... how old are you? You know that this is common practice right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
The most damning evidence?

PK SIGNED THE BRIDGE CONTRACT AND ENDED HIS HOLDOUT.

I take it he was not that insulted. Nor will he be when he signs his next deal.
He signed it because as an RFA he had no rights. He knew no other team would sign him and the Habs had him by the balls. So he did the only thing he could do and he signed it. Not signing wouldn't have helped him. He was at our mercy.

And in the long run, he'll remember this and make us pay for it. That's why it was so dumb of us to do this.

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Old
07-16-2013, 04:55 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
A few holes in your post:

1) You use hindsight to claim PK was lowballed - plain and simple. Easy to say this after the season he just had.
2) The 5 over 5 number was never substantiated anywhere - strictly opinion and hearsay.
3) What makes you think you will turn out to be right?

If PK has a subpar season over the next couple years, the same people will ***** about his contract whatever it looks like. As much as you want to believe, there is not a science to this. The market sets itself, and is often skewed by ridiculous GM's and their penchant to overpay "names". What is wrong with a GM being firm and wanting to see results from a very young, developing player before wagering the farm? That sounds like good business acumen to me.

The bridge contract was not an insult. If you and your fellow posters who share your opinion are so right, then why was Subban not a target for an offer sheet? (Yes I heard the stories that he would not sign one because he really wanted to be a Hab... blah blah blah). Why did GM's across the league not see his supposed worth like all of you did?

The most damning evidence?

PK SIGNED THE BRIDGE CONTRACT AND ENDED HIS HOLDOUT.

I take it he was not that insulted. Nor will he be when he signs his next deal.
Just to be clear if PK struggles in the next few years it makes the bridge contract worse because he will now have a higher caphit regardless of any struggles next year. A struggling former Norris winner at 5m is much better than one at 7m.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
I like how people assume that Subban would've come in this season with the same state of mind with a big, fat contract in hands.

I also like how people can't understand the safest thing to do is what Bergevin did; the Sabres got ****ed big time with Tyler Myers. The Flames got too with Dion Phaneuf to a certain extent.

I also like how people assume the new management team had nothing to do with Subban blooming the way he did last season.

Hindsight is 20/20. When he signed, nobody knew how Subban was going to evolve as a player. What I know though, is that those bonus are completely irrelevant, if you don't have dime-a-dozen players like Gorges who are being paid HUGE amounts of money to bring absolutely nothing to the table... or players like Gionta who are earning 5M a year by not contributing to the identity of our team in any way.

Give me one potential Norris trophy winner who's signed at such a discount in this league. Name one.And then, you'll be able to blame Bergevin for not doing likewise.

Otherwise, you're just complaining about not having something that doesn,t even exist in this league to begin with.
We can also list a bunch of players who didn't struggle after signing long term after their ELC. And in Myers case he had a great rookie year and then struggled for two years. Had Buffalo waited until his ELC was finished they likely would've done something different. PK improved each season of his ELC so it's not at all the same.

Many people predicted PK would continue to improve/evolve as a player, so to claim it's all hindsight and nobody could know is ridiculous.

Letang was a finalist this year and was signed for 4 year at 3.5m per after his ELC. Does that count. And it doesn't really matter if there's been one before we had that opportunity and didn't take it.

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Old
07-16-2013, 04:57 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Both those guys said he wanted around 5 mil... so I'm not sure why you doubt this then.

Back when this was going on, they said the Habs were offering 5 mil for two years and Subban wanted about 2-3 more per year. Right in line with what everyone else was saying. Mackenzie figured he wanted something around 25 mil for five years...

This was exactly what everyone else was reporting dude...
Mckenzie admitted he knew nothing, was speculating. The numbers are now being peddled as fact by the peanut gallery.

Mckenzie is credible , a wild ass guess from mckenzie is not.

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Old
07-16-2013, 04:58 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's also a fantasy...whatever PK signs for. There will still be cap space available.

Other teams find ways, there's no reason why the Habs can't
I have said this in the past and I will have to say it again. Your logic on this part of the business is absurd. If you can have any player signed long term at a bargain, it will make your team better. Having PK at 7 M a year is worse than having him at 5 M a year.

I have always appreciated your post, and I don't get me wrong, I don't think any less of you and your opinion. But on this matter, I simply can't see how you defend your position by saying "other teams do it", well if the Habs have a Norris trophy defensemen signed at 5 M for the next 4 years, they would be able to bring give 5 M to another player, instead of filling the hole with a 3 M player.

Anyways... PK Subban is a winner, the contract had nothing to do with his play. (If any of you wish to say that he held out because he was greedy, I counter that by saying he is selfless, he knew he was going to win the Norris, thus the Habs now have to pony up the dough, where if they did it already, they would of saved millions on his next contract).

PK Subban, the selfless Norris Trophy winner.

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07-16-2013, 05:00 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's also a fantasy...whatever PK signs for. There will still be cap space available.

Other teams find ways, there's no reason why the Habs can't
There will be 3 million reasons more why the Habs wont' be able to in the future now. Sure we can probably find a way to do it but why make it hard for ourselves?

Seriously, it made no sense then and makes even less sense now.

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07-16-2013, 05:21 PM
  #157
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This post makes me look smarter than it did back in January!

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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
OK sure, but let's have a discussion.

How much is Subban worth this year? I would say somewhere around 4 million. He has talent, and does help the team win. I also find him to be inconsistent at playing an uptempo game that he proves he is capable of.

Now if you agree with my description, do you see him getting better, staying the same, or getting worse? I personally see him getting better. He has the tools to be a #1 and he does seem like a dedicated player. I do not think he is there yet, based on last year, but I do believe he is not far away either. With the chance of him being able to reach his potential this season is what I think is throwing off the negotiations. If we take it year by year salary for multiple contracts, I see it like this:

2 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
Cap hit of 4,500,000$

This to me does not benefit Subban or the Habs for that matter If he does pan out, we will now need to sign him where he might be able to demand 7 million a year, assuming he is a #1 D with Norris Candidate in his repertoire. At first I thought he should get a 2 year deal like Max and Carey got, but he really isn't in the same position they were after the ELC. Subban has done more and proved more than they did at this point. Max was having some confidence issues and Carey was fighting with Halak for the starting role. Subban last year took on some of the best players in the NHL and didn't do that as bad individually compared to how bad the whole team finished.


3 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
Cap hit of 5,000,000$

Not so bad I guess, keeps him on RFA status and we do this all again.

4 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 5,000,000$
2014-2015 ---> 6,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,375,000$

I don't like him getting to UFA status in his prime. This could mean overpayment. With a star player who is possibly at the best point in his career... He gets a lot of cards on the table in this negotiation.

6 year contract:
2013 ---------> 4,000,000$
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$
Cap hit of 5,750,000$

Now based on this contract we have him signed until he is 30 with a very manageable 5.75 million cap hit. Provided he becomes a star this will be a great discount to have. At this cap hit he is tied with Markov for 15th highest cap hit by a defensemen.

Subban was 28th in scoring by a defensemen last season, which in essence makes him a #1 D for points since the league has 30 #1Ds technically (obviously a flawed way of looking at things, but it works for my argument) and the 28th highest cap hit for a defensemen is 4.6 million, which is not that far off with next years 4 million in salary for Subban. Edit: He was also 17th in ATOI last year for defensemen.

Right now I think I may be titling towards a long term deal because I have faith in Subban. I realize this all comes crashing down if he doesn't reach the ceiling a lot of us envision for him but then again 5.75 for Subban can't be that bad from what we have scene him do already.

I'm just eager for him to sign, we are a much better team with him in the lineup than not.

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07-16-2013, 05:24 PM
  #158
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I don't think he has to sign him but it wouldn't be a bad idea to do it. If he doesn't extend him, it will be the most heard question from the media all season, until the contract is done.

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07-16-2013, 05:28 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There will be 3 million reasons more why the Habs wont' be able to in the future now. Sure we can probably find a way to do it but why make it hard for ourselves?

Seriously, it made no sense then and makes even less sense now.
I wouldn't have been against giving him 8 years before the season. His progression and work ethic were there and proved to want to be a winner. You identify your core and lock them up ASAP. He is part of that core and will be (is?) the leader of our defence. It sucks now, but either way he will get the long term contract with Montreal.

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07-16-2013, 05:41 PM
  #160
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1. You are dead wrong. He was worth a hell of a lot more than the 2.75 we offered him. That isn't hindsight, it's basic reasoning. If you didn't understand this before the year began then you have no idea what you're talking about. He was well worth that money based on the previous two seasons we'd seen from him. Hell we paid Gorges about 150% more than we paid Subban dude. Just give this argument up because you're way out to lunch on this one.

2. It was widely reported by every single reporter with any kind of credibility. Again, you want us to prove to you that water is wet... And like I said, I initially thought Meehan was out to gouge and publicly said so. But that very clearly wasnt' the case and I quickly changed my position. 25 for 5 was what they were looking for... in that range anyway.

3. The same thing that indicated to me that the Gomez trade was terrible... Common sense. Prove to me that the sun will rise tomorrow man... How far do you want to take this silliness? The guy was great in 2012 and in 2013 won the freaking Norris. How much does it take to convince you that he would've been worth 5 mil per year?

I'm already right on this. And I'll continue to be right on this unless he gets hit by a bus.

Quote:
PK is going to wind up with a contract that likely will pay between 7 and more likely 8 million a year. It's a heck of a lot easier to put up with a subpar season when you're only paying him 5. No matter how you slice it we're going to lose on this.

I could understand it if we knew we were contenders and going for the cup and needed the cap space now. But that wasn't the case... We'll need the cap space down the road. All the more reason to sign him for something reasonable now. Unfortunately, we decided to rip him off.

2.75 was an insult. It was. The 3.5 that he'll make this year is insulting too.

As for why he didn't get an offer sheet... It's the same reason Jamie Benn didn't get one. The GMs collude together and know that the Habs would match. Why raise salaries across the league for no reason.

I mean no offense by this... how old are you? You know that this is common practice right?


Wow. Are you PK's Dad? You sure seem offended by this whole bridge contract thing.

Any fool knows PK was and is worth more than the bridge contract pays him. I never doubted that. What you are not factoring in is exactly what you mention near the end of the post. Call it GM collusion or whatever, and yes I am aware that Subban would have had very limited options if he were not to sign the bridge deal. There exists a hierarchy that is typically honoured by most teams in regards to contracts given to players. Look at Gorges for example: Long-serving Hab, good company man, says the right things. The prior regime rewarded him for this. Many gripe about his on-ice production/performance, and rightly so. But Gorges brings many things that do not meet the eye (consider him taking Gallagher in to his home this year for example).

I knew damn well Subban would not make more money than Gorges before his RFA negotiation began. As much upside and potential as many saw/see in PK, there were enough red flags around his locker-room presence and "buy-in" that you could not flaw a new, incoming upper management team for being cautious about the situation coming off a horrendous season for the team. Credit PK for coming in this year to a new coaching staff with an appropriate attitude and desire to "buy-in". On-ice talent was never a question.

For Bergevin to risk a longer term contract by essentially paying PK to be the highest paid d-man on the roster with the exception of Markov as one of his first moves would have been risky at best. Will he regret the decision to offer the bridge deal? Perhaps, but you cannot fault him for doing so. Other posters have cited many examples of players who too early in their careers got paid, and could never live up to their contracts.

I find it refreshing that a GM chooses to be prudent in a situation where he is trying to familiarize himself with a new team. PK will get paid, and deservedly so. But coming off a toxic season like the Habs did the year before last, it would have been potentially risky to elevate such a young player to elite status before knowing how he would respond to some significant changes to the staff, system, roster, etc.

Bergevin took a risk, and may end up paying in the long run for it, but I cannot fault him for his approach. PK himself even said the negotiation process 'humbled him". Something I think maybe all parties can grow from.

BTW, in two posts now you have backhandedly insulted me with the Bachelor reference, and asking my age. Do you do this to all who disagree with you?

You have posted here a long time, and I generally appreciate your insight and following of Habs related happenings - but come on man - don't use your perceived hockey intelligence to try to degrade me.

And I am willing to bet I might have you beat in the age category......

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Old
07-16-2013, 05:48 PM
  #161
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Dont people understand that the assumption that MBs bridge contract being the reason for PKs success undermines everything PK has acomplished till now, his education and peraonal character and attitude that got him where he was prior to last season? Assuming that an extra 2-3 mil on top of of his millys would of "corrupted" him is assuming PK has bad work ethic and bad character? Now thats a ridiculous assumption that all of you are making directly or in directly.

PK still gets no credit and probably never will. Sad.

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07-16-2013, 05:57 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Dont people understand that the assumption that MBs bridge contract being the reason for PKs success undermines everything PK has acomplished till now, his education and peraonal character and attitude that got him where he was prior to last season? Assuming that an extra 2-3 mil on top of of his millys would of "corrupted" him is assuming PK has bad work ethic and bad character? Now thats a ridiculous assumption that all of you are making directly or in directly.

PK still gets no credit and probably never will. Sad.
Since you have elevated Subban to a very high level, would Subban play for the Habs for $1 million per year just because he has education and personal character and attitude second to none?

Or is he just like every other NHL player who wants to maximize his salary?

A lot of people are forgetting that the door swings both ways.

Do you want Subban playing with a long term contract (say $5 mil for 5 years) knowing deep in his heart that after his Norris season that he is worth $7 million +.

A GM must install some type of rising salary scale for his young athletes or else he will face year after year of young players holding out for the big money.

Fans are happy (I know I am) with Subban's performance last season. So is Bergevin. So is Subban. He will get paid what he is worth and the NHL seasons will go on as normal.

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07-16-2013, 06:04 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's also a fantasy...whatever PK signs for. There will still be cap space available.

Other teams find ways, there's no reason why the Habs can't
I was trying to simplify the matter for you, but it went right over your head.
Say we have 2M left, or 3, or 4, wtv. Point is we'd have x amount + 2-3M, and that only helps.
Having space helps, I don't understand why you either dot want to admit or see this.

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07-16-2013, 06:31 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Since you have elevated Subban to a very high level, would Subban play for the Habs for $1 million per year just because he has education and personal character and attitude second to none?

Or is he just like every other NHL player who wants to maximize his salary?

A lot of people are forgetting that the door swings both ways.

Do you want Subban playing with a long term contract (say $5 mil for 5 years) knowing deep in his heart that after his Norris season that he is worth $7 million +.

A GM must install some type of rising salary scale for his young athletes or else he will face year after year of young players holding out for the big money.

Fans are happy (I know I am) with Subban's performance last season. So is Bergevin. So is Subban. He will get paid what he is worth and the NHL seasons will go on as normal.
If he's the only GM in the league enforcing bridge deals on all his players we will face this regardless. Galchenyuk will compare himself to Seguin, Eberle, Benn, etc... what PK agreed to do after holding out won't matter one iota to him or his agent.

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07-16-2013, 06:31 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
Wow. Are you PK's Dad? You sure seem offended by this whole bridge contract thing.
Offended? No. Puzzled? Absolutely. Made no sense whatsoever...
Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
Any fool knows PK was and is worth more than the bridge contract pays him. I never doubted that. What you are not factoring in is exactly what you mention near the end of the post. Call it GM collusion or whatever, and yes I am aware that Subban would have had very limited options if he were not to sign the bridge deal. There exists a hierarchy that is typically honoured by most teams in regards to contracts given to players. Look at Gorges for example: Long-serving Hab, good company man, says the right things. The prior regime rewarded him for this. Many gripe about his on-ice production/performance, and rightly so. But Gorges brings many things that do not meet the eye (consider him taking Gallagher in to his home this year for example).

I knew damn well Subban would not make more money than Gorges before his RFA negotiation began. As much upside and potential as many saw/see in PK, there were enough red flags around his locker-room presence and "buy-in" that you could not flaw a new, incoming upper management team for being cautious about the situation coming off a horrendous season for the team. Credit PK for coming in this year to a new coaching staff with an appropriate attitude and desire to "buy-in". On-ice talent was never a question.

For Bergevin to risk a longer term contract by essentially paying PK to be the highest paid d-man on the roster with the exception of Markov as one of his first moves would have been risky at best. Will he regret the decision to offer the bridge deal? Perhaps, but you cannot fault him for doing so. Other posters have cited many examples of players who too early in their careers got paid, and could never live up to their contracts.
Paying PK 5 mil a year was not risky at all. He was worth 5 million easily based on what he'd done the year before and we had a chance to lock him up at very reasonable money for a long time.

And no matter how you try to rationalize or excuse the 2.75 million we forced on him this year it didn't make any sense at all. There's no way on God's green earth that he was only worth that or the relative peanuts he'll make again this year.

As for the argument that we couldn't know that he'd have a great year... that is ridiculous. We saw that he was already a number one blueliner and was at the bare minimum going to be worth that cash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
I find it refreshing that a GM chooses to be prudent in a situation where he is trying to familiarize himself with a new team. PK will get paid, and deservedly so. But coming off a toxic season like the Habs did the year before last, it would have been potentially risky to elevate such a young player to elite status before knowing how he would respond to some significant changes to the staff, system, roster, etc.
Prudent is one thing. Stingy is another. And I expect my GM to have some vision. You want to be prudent? Be prudent with Ryan White or... David Desharnais. Don't be cheap with a defenseman who's already proven he can be a number one guy at the tender age of 22. All we had to do was offer him what he was worth... we didn't. Now we'll pay in the long run.

This is not hindsight. This is something we said back when it was going on...
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
Bergevin took a risk, and may end up paying in the long run for it, but I cannot fault him for his approach. PK himself even said the negotiation process 'humbled him". Something I think maybe all parties can grow from.
Dumb risk to take. There was no upside in taking that risk man...
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
BTW, in two posts now you have backhandedly insulted me with the Bachelor reference, and asking my age. Do you do this to all who disagree with you?
When somebody comes in and starts accusing folks of 'whining' about something that the GM should be thrashed for, yes you are going to get called on for it. This is a message board, its a place to share opinion. And when I see crap like that on here, I will respond. And dude, it was hardly a swipe at you... come on, it's not like I ripped you apart.

As for your age... like I said, no insult intended. If you're old enough to know that GMs collude though... why bother asking the question to begin with? Why make a false objection that we all know is silly to bring up? The only logical conclusion would be that you don't know about this because hey... who would waste everyone's time with such a silly objection that everyone knows is false if they knew better?
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
You have posted here a long time, and I generally appreciate your insight and following of Habs related happenings - but come on man - don't use your perceived hockey intelligence to try to degrade me.

And I am willing to bet I might have you beat in the age category......
I wasn't trying to degrade you. It was an honest question. And again, if you're old enough to know this and you know about the collusion, then why ask the question in the first place??

As for the bachelor comment, don't come here and accuse folks of whining when they have every right to rip the GM on something that he's made a mistake on. Sorry if I hurt your feelings but dude, when you come in saying folks are whining you're kind of asking for it. And me suggesting that you should go watch the Bachelor if you don't want to hear the criticisms against our GM isn't really the 'burn' of the century...

It's not like I'm going to get upset at you for asking if I'm PK's dad...


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07-16-2013, 07:17 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Offended? No. Puzzled? Absolutely. Made no sense whatsoever...

Paying PK 5 mil a year was not risky at all. He was worth 5 million easily based on what he'd done the year before and we had a chance to lock him up at very reasonable money for a long time.

And no matter how you try to rationalize or excuse the 2.75 million we forced on him this year it didn't make any sense at all. There's no way on God's green earth that he was only worth that or the relative peanuts he'll make again this year.

As for the argument that we couldn't know that he'd have a great year... that is ridiculous. We saw that he was already a number one blueliner and was at the bare minimum going to be worth that cash.


Prudent is one thing. Stingy is another. And I expect my GM to have some vision. You want to be prudent? Be prudent with Ryan White or... David Desharnais. Don't be cheap with a defenseman who's already proven he can be a number one guy at the tender age of 22. All we had to do was offer him what he was worth... we didn't. Now we'll pay in the long run.

This is not hindsight. This is something we said back when it was going on...

Dumb risk to take. There was no upside in taking that risk man...

When somebody comes in and starts accusing folks of 'whining' about something that the GM should be thrashed for, yes you are going to get called on for it. This is a message board, its a place to share opinion. And when I see crap like that on here, I will respond. And dude, it was hardly a swipe at you... come on, it's not like I ripped you apart.

As for your age... like I said, no insult intended. If you're old enough to know that GMs collude though... why bother asking the question to begin with? Why make a false objection that we all know is silly to bring up? The only logical conclusion would be that you don't know about this because hey... who would waste everyone's time with such a silly objection that everyone knows is false if they knew better?

I wasn't trying to degrade you. It was an honest question. And again, if you're old enough to know this and you know about the collusion, then why ask the question in the first place??

As for the bachelor comment, don't come here and accuse folks of whining when they have every right to rip the GM on something that he's made a mistake on. Sorry if I hurt your feelings but dude, when you come in saying folks are whining you're kind of asking for it. And me suggesting that you should go watch the Bachelor if you don't want to hear the criticisms against our GM isn't really the 'burn' of the century...

It's not like I'm going to get upset at you for asking if I'm PK's dad...
Feelings ain't hurt at all. Just do not know why you had to resort to the immature comments. And as far as commenting on the "whining", it might be safer to generalize than to single people out. I did not know you were the "board defender".

I notice you did not address the character concerns of Subban from my earlier post - and you do not have to. But I firmly believe this was a concern of the incoming brass, and they wanted to see which PK Subban would emerge for them. We have all heard how the new GM loves him some "character". I love Subban as a player, but we all know he can rub teammates and coaches the wrong way at times with his demeanour. Some can tolerate it, some cannot. Remember that Therrien was very reserved when it came to commenting on PK early on in the season. A lot more goes behind contract negotiations than just on ice performance. Just ask Tyler Seguin.

I personally believe PK grew up a lot this past year, and this was a result of Therrien allowing him to play his game more than Martin/Cunneyworth did.

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07-16-2013, 07:19 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There will be 3 million reasons more why the Habs wont' be able to in the future now. Sure we can probably find a way to do it but why make it hard for ourselves?

Seriously, it made no sense then and makes even less sense now.
Ourselves? The only person making deals and filling out the roster is the GM...not fans

Again, the best know how to move pieces to the puzzle

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07-16-2013, 07:20 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Prudent is one thing. Stingy is another. And I expect my GM to have some vision. You want to be prudent? Be prudent with Ryan White or... David Desharnais. Don't be cheap with a defenseman who's already proven he can be a number one guy at the tender age of 22. All we had to do was offer him what he was worth... we didn't. Now we'll pay in the long run.
Or... Briere.

There's always this double standard with PK. You have to be prudent with him because, you know, it's eeehhhh... well, hummmm, you know...

Bergevin could give 2M/y to Ryan White, half the guys here would defend the move, saying that White's contribution is extremely valuable etc. Yet, 2.85M/y for Subban is deemed fair and prudent, doing some good for his 'character issues'.

For the record, I was OK with the bridge deal, but would have given much more for those two years, as it was clear that PK was worth it already. AND, we're not even using the cap space for anything other than overpaying for a declining smurf...

Now I think is the time for Bergevin to show some love.

1- Go meet with PK and extend him for 8 years. I'd offer 6.5M first (slight discount for longer term) and I think PK would be the kind of guy to sign. But if it takes a little more, so be it.

2- Send a friendly memo to Therrien: Hey Mike, good news, I just extended our no.1 D.

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07-16-2013, 07:24 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I was trying to simplify the matter for you, but it went right over your head.
Say we have 2M left, or 3, or 4, wtv. Point is we'd have x amount + 2-3M, and that only helps.
Having space helps, I don't understand why you either dot want to admit or see this.
I'm very well aware that having cap space helps (even though that very thought is incomplete, cap space alone doesn't do squat).

But the Habs WILL have cap space whenever PK does eventually sign his new deal...

Had PK signed a long term deal in January, with the cap going down...they wouldn't have cap space

I see and understand what you're saying...I just think you're looking at it from the wrong angle, you've got a bit of tunnel vision on this and you're not seeing the entire picture


Last edited by 417: 07-16-2013 at 07:37 PM.
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07-16-2013, 07:27 PM
  #170
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Whatever happened to agreeing to disagreeing, or is that a lost art? Here's a fact:

You're opinion does not make a situation "right" and the others' "wrong".

I happen to believe that Bergevin did the right thing by signing Subban to that bridge contract. Others feel he should have signed him long term immediately.

It's okay to disagree!

What I know is that the team's GM is working with real dollars, making real decisions, and he's passed a number of interviews to get into the position that he's in. What qualifies me (or you) to feel we're more justified than him without even knowing all the facts?

Take a chill pill folks, it's just hockey, just discussions, and the sooner you realize that you won't change someone else's opinion on the subject, the better you'll feel and the more pleasant it will be to read those threads.

EDIT: I share 417's opinion on the matter, for what it's worth.

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07-16-2013, 07:37 PM
  #171
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I don't think it matters much. PK should still ask for an arm & a leg and it'll be as much a distraction before or after the season starts or at the end of his current contract.

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07-16-2013, 07:42 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Ourselves? The only person making deals and filling out the roster is the GM...not fans

Again, the best know how to move pieces to the puzzle
Does that include Rejean Houle? Only GMs know what they're doing? The fans can't be right when the team trades McD for Gomez?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Whatever happened to agreeing to disagreeing, or is that a lost art? Here's a fact:

You're opinion does not make a situation "right" and the others' "wrong".

I happen to believe that Bergevin did the right thing by signing Subban to that bridge contract. Others feel he should have signed him long term immediately.

It's okay to disagree!

What I know is that the team's GM is working with real dollars, making real decisions, and he's passed a number of interviews to get into the position that he's in. What qualifies me (or you) to feel we're more justified than him without even knowing all the facts?

Take a chill pill folks, it's just hockey, just discussions, and the sooner you realize that you won't change someone else's opinion on the subject, the better you'll feel and the more pleasant it will be to read those threads.

EDIT: I share 417's opinion on the matter, for what it's worth.
Sure it's okay to disagree.

It's also okay to look at PK's contract right now and wonder why the hell this guy was only worth 2.8 million while Gorges was worth a million more...

I mean seriously man, this makes sense to you?

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07-16-2013, 07:45 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I have said this in the past and I will have to say it again. Your logic on this part of the business is absurd. If you can have any player signed long term at a bargain, it will make your team better. Having PK at 7 M a year is worse than having him at 5 M a year.

I have always appreciated your post, and I don't get me wrong, I don't think any less of you and your opinion. But on this matter, I simply can't see how you defend your position by saying "other teams do it", well if the Habs have a Norris trophy defensemen signed at 5 M for the next 4 years, they would be able to bring give 5 M to another player, instead of filling the hole with a 3 M player.

Anyways... PK Subban is a winner, the contract had nothing to do with his play. (If any of you wish to say that he held out because he was greedy, I counter that by saying he is selfless, he knew he was going to win the Norris, thus the Habs now have to pony up the dough, where if they did it already, they would of saved millions on his next contract).

PK Subban, the selfless Norris Trophy winner.
My logic is absurd? That's your opinion...I don't need you to share it

This idea that because the Habs can save money by offering Subban 5M for the next 4 years and be able to give 5M to another player and it will all just magically work out JUST BECAUSE they have the available cap space is just a fantasy.

Just because you have cap space does not mean you will use it wisely...Personally, I would rather pay Subban a boat load of money then use money saved to spend it on a UFA that we will likely end up overpaying for, because as we all know, almost all UFA's end up being overpaid (a word I detest mind you). Subban to me is as sure of a thing as there is on the Habs, so whether he's making 5-6-7-8M, I don't give a damn. I'd rather roll the dice on Subban then some unknown player.

Again, I find it hilarious that so many lose sleep over Subban's next contract as though him making even 8M a year is going to cripple the Habs, while all the Cup contenders are paying all their key players huge salaries.

I swear, it's like a HFBoard thing to have players on the most affordable deals possible so you can go on the board and gloat about how other teams overpaid for their players and how the player you cheer for is on a great deal.

In the end...none of that matters

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07-16-2013, 07:46 PM
  #174
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I don't really care because he will get signed eventually.

One thing people don't mention when they talk about his bridge contract is if the Habs sign him to the max term next contract, they (in hindsight) will have kept PK Subban a Hab for 9 full years whereas if they signed him to a five year contract last year at a lower cost he could have walked away in 2017. At a higher price tag, 4 extra years of PK isn't too shabby.


Last edited by bjac: 07-16-2013 at 07:53 PM.
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07-16-2013, 07:52 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
Feelings ain't hurt at all. Just do not know why you had to resort to the immature comments. And as far as commenting on the "whining", it might be safer to generalize than to single people out. I did not know you were the "board defender".

I notice you did not address the character concerns of Subban from my earlier post - and you do not have to. But I firmly believe this was a concern of the incoming brass, and they wanted to see which PK Subban would emerge for them. We have all heard how the new GM loves him some "character". I love Subban as a player, but we all know he can rub teammates and coaches the wrong way at times with his demeanour. Some can tolerate it, some cannot. Remember that Therrien was very reserved when it came to commenting on PK early on in the season. A lot more goes behind contract negotiations than just on ice performance. Just ask Tyler Seguin.

I personally believe PK grew up a lot this past year, and this was a result of Therrien allowing him to play his game more than Martin/Cunneyworth did.
Tyler Seguin a guy who actually has character issues by his own GM's comments and who hasn't proven himself as much as Subban has is making close to 6 million a season. Not sure how you think he helps your argument here?

As for Pk's character... I don't see how in the world you can honestly sit there and say that it was somehow right to pay this guy 2.8 mil after he'd shown himself more than capable of being a number one blueliner.

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