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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-16-2013, 07:55 PM
  #176
Des Louise
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Whatever happened to agreeing to disagreeing, or is that a lost art? Here's a fact:

You're opinion does not make a situation "right" and the others' "wrong".

I happen to believe that Bergevin did the right thing by signing Subban to that bridge contract. Others feel he should have signed him long term immediately.

It's okay to disagree!

What I know is that the team's GM is working with real dollars, making real decisions, and he's passed a number of interviews to get into the position that he's in. What qualifies me (or you) to feel we're more justified than him without even knowing all the facts?

Take a chill pill folks, it's just hockey, just discussions, and the sooner you realize that you won't change someone else's opinion on the subject, the better you'll feel and the more pleasant it will be to read those threads.

EDIT: I share 417's opinion on the matter, for what it's worth.
You're wrong.

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Old
07-16-2013, 07:58 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Does that include Rejean Houle? Only GMs know what they're doing? The fans can't be right when the team trades McD for Gomez?




I mean seriously man, this makes sense to you?
Did I say only GM's know what they're doing? I responded to your post where you said "making it hard on ourselves". The only person he's made it more difficult on is himself. But again, he's the GM...THAT'S HIS JOB.

You think I don't make sense....yet you want to have me believe that just because the Habs could of saved 3M per year on Subban's deal, it means they would of been better off for him.

You don't explain how that money would be spent, you don't explain on who? But that's not surprising because you can't. You have no idea how that money would be spent and how it would turn out

Perfect example is the Cole/Ryder swap...Habs fans were ecstatic at getting Cole's contract off the books, Ryder was gonna be a cheap rental for the rest of the year and the Habs were gonna have oodles of cash this summer to spend and solve all their problems

What happens?

A few weeks later MB signs Desharnais to a 4 year contract eating up almost all of the cap space that was freed up in the Cole/Ryder swap

Back to square one

Edit: Look at the summer the Habs had a ton of cap space, they went out and traded for Gomez, signed Cammy, Gionta, Gill, etc...how did that work out for them?

Cap space is great, but it doesn't guarantee a damn thing...furthermore, I asked this question earlier and not shockingly, none of you pro-capspace warriors were able to answer it. But since the lockout, how many of the Stanley Cup winner, or hell, even final 4 teams were teams that had a lot of cap space left?

I'd venture to say, and granted i'm just guessing here, but I'd say that all the recent Cup winners, and finalists, are all teams that spent up to the cap and had very little cap space. Because successful teams understand that it's not how much you spend, it WHO you spend it on. The teams that accumulate cap space are the same teams that are in the basement every year.


Last edited by 417: 07-16-2013 at 08:07 PM.
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07-16-2013, 08:08 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Did I say only GM's know what they're doing? I responded to your post where you said "making it hard on ourselves". The only person he's made it more difficult on is himself. But again, he's the GM...THAT'S HIS JOB.
You sound like you're saying that his job is to make it hard on himself. I know that's not what you meant...

Regardless, GMs make dumb moves all the time and are fair game to be ripped when they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
You think I don't make sense....yet you want to have me believe that just because the Habs could of saved 3M per year on Subban's deal, it means they would of been better off for him.

You don't explain how that money would be spent, you don't explain on who? But that's not surprising because you can't. You have no idea how that money would be spent and how it would turn out

Perfect example is the Cole/Ryder swap...Habs fans were ecstatic at getting Cole's contract off the books, Ryder was gonna be a cheap rental for the rest of the year and the Habs were gonna have oodles of cash this summer to spend and solve all their problems

What happens?

A few weeks later MB signs Desharnais to a 4 year contract eating up almost all of the cap space that was freed up in the Cole/Ryder swap

Back to square one
Why would I have to explain what we'd spend the extra 3 mil on? The fact that we'd have it would be a good thing regardless... In order for the 3 mil to be good we have to explain to you what we'd spend it on?

Why?

And who said anything about a guarantee of anything regarding cap space? All that's being said is that we'll pay more than we needed to in the future. As far as making more dumb moves that eat up cap space, that might happen regardless. All the more reason to need the extra 3 million...

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07-16-2013, 08:13 PM
  #179
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There are players who got market value with their first RFA contract who progressed and there are players that failed to do so. It's a risk every GM takes knowing what kind of individual the player in question is.

In Subban's case, it was as sure as it can be that he was the kind of player you give market value right away, even moreso if he wants longterm. Even remotely assuming that the low ball offer and contract signing gave Subban the extra motivation to become the best D-man in the game is an unjustified doubt towards his character, which he has in abundance.

A lot of fans knew we had an exception player that warranted that kind of treatment and Bergevin failed to do so. Thankfully and luckily, Subban is dedicated to the organization and gets where Bergevin came from...or at least is trying hard to do so. Bergevin could've very well given him market value minus the term, but he didn't. It's a clear indication of how much Bergevin believed in him. He low balled one of the best young Dmans in the game and it looks much worse now.

In my book, it was a clear mistake by MB and the entire credit goes to Subban, the coaching staff and his teammates. We don't know what may have caused Bergevin to doubt Subban in the first place, but all I know is that everytime someone has ever doubted the man, he proves them wrong with panache. Same story, same result with our GM.

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07-16-2013, 08:21 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You sound like you're saying that his job is to make it hard on himself. I know that's not what you meant...

Regardless, GMs make dumb moves all the time and are fair game to be ripped when they do.

Why would I have to explain what we'd spend the extra 3 mil on? The fact that we'd have it would be a good thing regardless... In order for the 3 mil to be good we have to explain to you what we'd spend it on?

Why?

And who said anything about a guarantee of anything regarding cap space? All that's being said is that we'll pay more than we needed to in the future. As far as making more dumb moves that eat up cap space, that might happen regardless. All the more reason to need the extra 3 million...
So let me get this straight...you think that just having 3M of available cap space is great?

Go take a look at teams that had a lot of cap space last year, let me know how they did...

also, you're wrong when it comes to Subban and paying more then we needed to in the future. Had MB done like many of you wanted here and signed Subban to a 5/25 type of deal in January, it would of ended up costing him more in the long run, Subban would still be in prime years at the end of that deal. So how much do you think it would cost to retain him then?

Furthermore, since cap space is so vital to you...with the cap going down next year, the Habs would be right up against the cap today had they signed him to that 5/25M deal.

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07-16-2013, 08:27 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
So let me get this straight...you think that just having 3M of available cap space is great?

Go take a look at teams that had a lot of cap space last year, let me know how they did...

also, you're wrong when it comes to Subban and paying more then we needed to in the future. Had MB done like many of you wanted here and signed Subban to a 5/25 type of deal in January, it would of ended up costing him more in the long run, Subban would still be in prime years at the end of that deal. So how much do you think it would cost to retain him then?

Furthermore, since cap space is so vital to you...with the cap going down next year, the Habs would be right up against the cap today had they signed him to that 5/25M deal.
Or... we would've not signed Briere. Another reason to like the deal.

Anyways man, your position is that the 3 mil in cap space doesn't make a difference. I don't understand your line of reasoning. No reason at all not to want 3 mil in extra cap space over the next several years no matter how you slice it.

I'll leave it up to somebody else to convince you of this though...

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07-16-2013, 08:30 PM
  #182
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Lafleurs,

Team Bergevin is arguing that extra cap space is useless because there is no guarantee it will be well spent.

This is called "mental gymnastics". They are grasping at whatever straw they can to defend a failed strategy.

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07-16-2013, 08:38 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Lafleurs,

Team Bergevin is arguing that extra cap space is useless because there is no guarantee it will be well spent.
I understood the argument. I just don't understand why somebody would make it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
This is called "mental gymnastics". They are grasping at whatever straw they can to defend a failed strategy.
I guess. Again, I don't understand why they choose to defend it. Esp in the face of the season that PK just had.

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07-16-2013, 08:42 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I'm very well aware that having cap space helps (even though that very thought is incomplete, cap space alone doesn't do squat).

But the Habs WILL have cap space whenever PK does eventually sign his new deal...

Had PK signed a long term deal in January, with the cap going down...they wouldn't have cap space

I see and understand what you're saying...I just think you're looking at it from the wrong angle, you've got a bit of tunnel vision on this and you're not seeing the entire picture
If you are aware that having extra cap space helps, then I don't see why you're arguing against it.

It's not true that we wouldn't have had cap. We currently have 3.3M of free space, if PK took up an extra 3M, his cap hit would be at 5.8M. I think we could have had him for a little cheaper, but even at that hit, we'd have a complete team.
Bergevin decided to use the extra space to sign Briere. Kind of a head scratcher to many.

In any event, I find it pretty ironic that you say I'm not seeing the entire picture when I'm looking at the long term impact (2year bridge + long term deal at huge price VS no bridge+long term at reasonable price) and you're focusing on 1 1/2 seasons.
I focus on the future, you focus on the present, yet I'm the one not seeing the entire picture...
I guess I'm living in the bizarro world.

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07-16-2013, 08:44 PM
  #185
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I want him a Hab for life, but I'd go with a 6 year deal, 7.5M$ per?

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07-16-2013, 08:49 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Or... we would've not signed Briere. Another reason to like the deal.

Anyways man, your position is that the 3 mil in cap space doesn't make a difference. I don't understand your line of reasoning. No reason at all not to want 3 mil in extra cap space over the next several years no matter how you slice it.

I'll leave it up to somebody else to convince you of this though...
I don't need anyone to convince me of anything...I just watch how the NHL functions. GM's are the one's who show me that cap space isn't as vital as fans think it is. GM's, at least the good one's, show me that drafting, making smart trades and player evaluation (whether that means trades or choosing WHO to pay) are way more important than cap space.

Furthermore, i'm not surprised you don't understand my reasoning...websites like capgeek.com has turned the average fan into a freaking capologist now. They think they know everything there is to know about running a team because they can add/substract numbers.

Cap space can always be created, when you're an astute GM...you use the salary cap to your advantage.

Finally...you keep referencing the extra 3M per year. All I've said was that, that extra 3M per year that SUbban is going to me, is not what's going to make or break the Habs. Who they draft, how they're developed and their evaluation of their own players and other perspective player throughout the league will have a MUCH larger impact then this money you keep obsessing over

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07-16-2013, 08:50 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
also, you're wrong when it comes to Subban and paying more then we needed to in the future. Had MB done like many of you wanted here and signed Subban to a 5/25 type of deal in January, it would of ended up costing him more in the long run, Subban would still be in prime years at the end of that deal. So how much do you think it would cost to retain him then?
But that's absurd. I mean, shall we argue about how much Galchenyuk will cost in 10 years too?

Our window to a cup isn't in 8 years when PK's contract would have been up. It is in the next few years with guys like PK, Price, MaxPac, Galla, Gally, Collberg, Tinordi, Emelin, Eller, etc all entering their prime. We're talking anywhere between 2-5 years. That's when we can use some of our elite players on small cap hits.

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07-16-2013, 08:53 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I don't need anyone to convince me of anything...I just watch how the NHL functions. GM's are the one's who show me that cap space isn't as vital as fans think it is. GM's, at least the good one's, show me that drafting, making smart trades and player evaluation (whether that means trades or choosing WHO to pay) are way more important than cap space.

Furthermore, i'm not surprised you don't understand my reasoning...websites like capgeek.com has turned the average fan into a freaking capologist now. They think they know everything there is to know about running a team because they can add/substract numbers.

Cap space can always be created, when you're an astute GM...you use the salary cap to your advantage.

Finally...you keep referencing the extra 3M per year. All I've said was that, that extra 3M per year that SUbban is going to me, is not what's going to make or break the Habs. Who they draft, how they're developed and their evaluation of their own players and other perspective player throughout the league will have a MUCH larger impact then this money you keep obsessing over
But nobody ever said those things, so I don't see why you're going back to that. All that was said is that it's better to already have that cap flexibility rather than be forced to create it. It's pretty freaking simple and clear. It has nothing to do with fans thinking cap is more important than it is.
We had a chance to lock up a surefire star at a cheaper long term price early, we passed it up and now his cap hit will be higher than it would have been. Pretty darn simple.

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07-16-2013, 08:55 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
If you are aware that having extra cap space helps, then I don't see why you're arguing against it.

It's not true that we wouldn't have had cap. We currently have 3.3M of free space, if PK took up an extra 3M, his cap hit would be at 5.8M. I think we could have had him for a little cheaper, but even at that hit, we'd have a complete team.
Bergevin decided to use the extra space to sign Briere. Kind of a head scratcher to many.

In any event, I find it pretty ironic that you say I'm not seeing the entire picture when I'm looking at the long term impact (2year bridge + long term deal at huge price VS no bridge+long term at reasonable price) and you're focusing on 1 1/2 seasons.
I focus on the future, you focus on the present, yet I'm the one not seeing the entire picture...
I guess I'm living in the bizarro world.
Subban is what? 23yrs old? let's say he had signed that famous 5 yrs deal...that means he'd be a UFA at 28yrs old. How much do you think it's going to cost the Habs then? Especially considering the cap might be at 75M maybe 80M then

It's going to likely cost a lot more then the 7-8M deal he's going to lock down 1 year from now which will take him til he's 32-33yrs of age.

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07-16-2013, 08:57 PM
  #190
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Total agree. I do not want to hear about this contact all season long. It will be a big distraction because this is Montreal. I really hope MB understands this.

Give him the long term 8 year deal and make him a hab for life
I bet he gets traded sometime next year

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07-16-2013, 09:00 PM
  #191
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But that's absurd. I mean, shall we argue about how much Galchenyuk will cost in 10 years too?

Our window to a cup isn't in 8 years when PK's contract would have been up. It is in the next few years with guys like PK, Price, MaxPac, Galla, Gally, Collberg, Tinordi, Emelin, Eller, etc all entering their prime. We're talking anywhere between 2-5 years. That's when we can use some of our elite players on small cap hits.
This is hilarious...the Bruins can afford to pay Rask/Chara/Krejci/Lucic/Bergeron/Ericksson/Iggy

The Pens can afford to pay Crosby/Malkin/Neal/Letang/Kunitz/Dupuis

I could add a few more teams here...but you're trying to convince me the Habs won't be able to afford PK/Price/MP/Galcheyuk/Gallagher/Collberg/Tinordi/Emelin/Eller? (why Collberg and Tinordi are even there, I don't know)

Please

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07-16-2013, 09:01 PM
  #192
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Subban is what? 23yrs old? let's say he had signed that famous 5 yrs deal...that means he'd be a UFA at 28yrs old. How much do you think it's going to cost the Habs then? Especially considering the cap might be at 75M maybe 80M then

It's going to likely cost a lot more then the 7-8M deal he's going to lock down 1 year from now which will take him til he's 32-33yrs of age.
the bridge was the best thing for him and us

for the first time in his hockey life this arrogant player was finally told NO

He calmed down turned into a better player and team mate and who cares if he gets
6-8 mil next , better pay your stars big $$$$ than have 12.5 mil tied to three clown in DD , Gio and Jorges who haave no impact and are replaceable

MY gut says better than 50 % he gets moved next year

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07-16-2013, 09:10 PM
  #193
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My logic is absurd? That's your opinion...I don't need you to share it

This idea that because the Habs can save money by offering Subban 5M for the next 4 years and be able to give 5M to another player and it will all just magically work out JUST BECAUSE they have the available cap space is just a fantasy.

Just because you have cap space does not mean you will use it wisely...Personally, I would rather pay Subban a boat load of money then use money saved to spend it on a UFA that we will likely end up overpaying for, because as we all know, almost all UFA's end up being overpaid (a word I detest mind you). Subban to me is as sure of a thing as there is on the Habs, so whether he's making 5-6-7-8M, I don't give a damn. I'd rather roll the dice on Subban then some unknown player.

Again, I find it hilarious that so many lose sleep over Subban's next contract as though him making even 8M a year is going to cripple the Habs, while all the Cup contenders are paying all their key players huge salaries.

I swear, it's like a HFBoard thing to have players on the most affordable deals possible so you can go on the board and gloat about how other teams overpaid for their players and how the player you cheer for is on a great deal.

In the end...none of that matters
Why stop at 8m why not give him even more, I mean if we are just going to waste it on overpaid UFAs may as well give him 10m just to make sure we don't end up in a position where we might be tempted to overspend on a UFA.

No ones said that we are crippled because of what we will end up paying, and no one said the savings would have automatically made us a contender. Saving 3m gives the GM more flexibility in making moves to improve the team, having a Norris trophy winner on your team at 5m makes it easier to build the a championship team.

By the way it just so happens that Chicago has several players with cap hits below their worth. Both Hossa and Keith have cap hits in the 5-6m range instead of the 7+ range. So saying contenders pay their stars huge salaries is not really accurate.

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07-16-2013, 09:12 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Lafleurs,

Team Bergevin is arguing that extra cap space is useless because there is no guarantee it will be well spent.

This is called "mental gymnastics". They are grasping at whatever straw they can to defend a failed strategy.
If it wasn't for the fact that I disagree with nearly everything he's done, I'd love to have been a member of team Bergevin.

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07-16-2013, 09:16 PM
  #195
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This is hilarious...the Bruins can afford to pay Rask/Chara/Krejci/Lucic/Bergeron/Ericksson/Iggy

The Pens can afford to pay Crosby/Malkin/Neal/Letang/Kunitz/Dupuis

I could add a few more teams here...but you're trying to convince me the Habs won't be able to afford PK/Price/MP/Galcheyuk/Gallagher/Collberg/Tinordi/Emelin/Eller? (why Collberg and Tinordi are even there, I don't know)

Please
I can assure you other than Pk, Price , Max and Galchenyuk , the rest arent being paid top line money , we arent the contending Bruins

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07-16-2013, 09:17 PM
  #196
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Paying 7-8M per season to a Norris Trophy winner should not be a problem for any team.
Paying 3.9M for scum like Gorges should be what rubs people here the wrong way.
This is the kind of embarrassing garbage that gives hab fans everywhere a bad name.
What rubs people the wrong way is your total lack of hockey knowledge.

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07-16-2013, 09:20 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
This is hilarious...the Bruins can afford to pay Rask/Chara/Krejci/Lucic/Bergeron/Ericksson/Iggy

The Pens can afford to pay Crosby/Malkin/Neal/Letang/Kunitz/Dupuis

I could add a few more teams here...but you're trying to convince me the Habs won't be able to afford PK/Price/MP/Galcheyuk/Gallagher/Collberg/Tinordi/Emelin/Eller? (why Collberg and Tinordi are even there, I don't know)

Please
The Pens have won a total of 3 playoff rounds since their cup victory four years ago. And that victory happened to coincide with them getting massive discounts on Crosby and Malkin thanks to their ELCs. Maybe if they had an extra 3+ million to spend fixing their D problems they would've done a little better.

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07-16-2013, 09:22 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
the bridge was the best thing for him and us

for the first time in his hockey life this arrogant player was finally told NO

He calmed down turned into a better player and team mate and who cares if he gets
6-8 mil next , better pay your stars big $$$$ than have 12.5 mil tied to three clown in DD , Gio and Jorges who haave no impact and are replaceable

MY gut says better than 50 % he gets moved next year
I don't buy that for one second...I don't think the bridge deal had anything to do with Subban's performance

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07-16-2013, 09:24 PM
  #199
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This is the kind of embarrassing garbage that gives hab fans everywhere a bad name.
What rubs people the wrong way is your total lack of hockey knowledge.
It's literally only HiggsBozon who keeps insulting Gorges. Methinks Mr. Gorges and Ms. HiggsBozon have some knowledge of each other.

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07-16-2013, 09:25 PM
  #200
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Why stop at 8m why not give him even more, I mean if we are just going to waste it on overpaid UFAs may as well give him 10m just to make sure we don't end up in a position where we might be tempted to overspend on a UFA.

No ones said that we are crippled because of what we will end up paying, and no one said the savings would have automatically made us a contender. Saving 3m gives the GM more flexibility in making moves to improve the team, having a Norris trophy winner on your team at 5m makes it easier to build the a championship team.

By the way it just so happens that Chicago has several players with cap hits below their worth. Both Hossa and Keith have cap hits in the 5-6m range instead of the 7+ range. So saying contenders pay their stars huge salaries is not really accurate.
You know what gives a GM the most flexibility? Drafting well, making smart trades and accumulating assets. All the league's playoffs teams are all spending roughly the same on player salaries. The one's who don't, are in the basement every year

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