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07-10-2013, 07:23 PM
  #676
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NHLer? He was sent to the minors 3 times last season, finished the year in the minors, and was basically in the NHL in the first place because Kesler was injured. Calling him an 'NHLer' is a bit of a stretch IMO. If Kesler is healthy, he's lucky if he gets a cup of coffee. And he didn't exactly do enough with his opportunity to be considered a full-blown NHLer in my books.

By his play alone, not the number of games or how many times he was sent down, he's an NHLer. If he's able to impact the game more than some veterans, and is above comparative journeyman, he's an NHLer.

Again, this isn't about him reaching his expected ceiling, or surpassing it. This is about outperforming the actual bubble players in the league, and some veterans. If we are looking at his possession impact on the game, and the events therein, he's an NHLer.


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As for putting it together somewhere else, again, as I've said about Grabner, it happens when you're a good team. You can't keep everybody.

Schroeder's odds of becoming a good NHL player are much higher if he goes to a crap team like Florida and spends a full season as a bad top-6 center, but learns and improves and gains confidence in the process. On a team like the Canucks with two elite centers, that opportunity is harder to come by - he had it last year, but dropped the ball. That might be the only real chance he gets here, as waivers enter the equation now.

It should not happen when this good team has had questions about developing prospects. It's not about keeping everyone. It's about being more patient with prospects so that they are not traded too early.

A key point you hit on there is gaining confidence. Was Schroeder allowed the time and the leeway to become confident with the NHL game? I would say no. The two elite centres will impeded that progress, true. However, that type of set up could also be enough to bring a player like Schroeder along more slowly. He will still get his 2nd unit PP time, and softer matchups to learn, due to the great centres ahead of him.

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07-10-2013, 07:29 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Woah. Wait. What?

Are people suggesting Schroeder be waived? That would be nuts. He's the closest thing we have to an NHL-ready draftee. Give him the one-way $1M deal and let's see where we are at the Olympic Break.

People are suggesting this, and it's a possibility, if I am being fair. Could be that Tortorella doesn't like what Schroeder brings. Or that they acquire someone more suited to the 3rd line C role. Can't rule anything out.

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07-14-2013, 06:26 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
By his play alone, not the number of games or how many times he was sent down, he's an NHLer. If he's able to impact the game more than some veterans, and is above comparative journeyman, he's an NHLer.

Again, this isn't about him reaching his expected ceiling, or surpassing it. This is about outperforming the actual bubble players in the league, and some veterans. If we are looking at his possession impact on the game, and the events therein, he's an NHLer.





It should not happen when this good team has had questions about developing prospects. It's not about keeping everyone. It's about being more patient with prospects so that they are not traded too early.

A key point you hit on there is gaining confidence. Was Schroeder allowed the time and the leeway to become confident with the NHL game? I would say no. The two elite centres will impeded that progress, true. However, that type of set up could also be enough to bring a player like Schroeder along more slowly. He will still get his 2nd unit PP time, and softer matchups to learn, due to the great centres ahead of him.
Full agree with this. If he's better than replacement level he's already an NHL'er. Again, I just don't understand the seeming desire to dump young guys who've at least shown they can play at this level or the lack of patience associated with it, when the mantra is to get younger in the first place and the team has been criticized in the past by fans for not bringing enough youth along.

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07-14-2013, 07:55 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Full agree with this. If he's better than replacement level he's already an NHL'er. Again, I just don't understand the seeming desire to dump young guys who've at least shown they can play at this level or the lack of patience associated with it, when the mantra is to get younger in the first place and the team has been criticized in the past by fans for not bringing enough youth along.
Unfortunately this is lost on a lot of people. I guess you have to understand puck support and some of the nuances defensively to really appreciate his play last season. People will love him if the points start to come.

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07-14-2013, 10:17 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Unfortunately this is lost on a lot of people. I guess you have to understand puck support and some of the nuances defensively to really appreciate his play last season. People will love him if the points start to come.

If he can be as low-event as he has been, and start to put up points, people would have tough time slighting him at all. It's one of the things that has surprised me the most about him. I didn't expect him to be as low-event as he has been. I thought he would suffer more defensively while still figuring out his offensive game at this level. That hasn't been the case.

Low-event plus top6 production (35+ points) should win a lot of people over.

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07-14-2013, 11:55 PM
  #681
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People are suggesting this, and it's a possibility, if I am being fair. Could be that Tortorella doesn't like what Schroeder brings. Or that they acquire someone more suited to the 3rd line C role. Can't rule anything out.
How many people are suggesting this? Haven't seen it suggested all that much (or at all for that matter beside you). Waiving him would be horrible asset management given he still has value. Sure he has to clear waivers but that doesn't mean he doesn't have value. He would be an NHLer on a quite a few teams (at least they would give him a chance to prove he belongs in the NHL). His offensive skill set is there and he showed flashes of that. Problem is AV never really gave him a chance (honestly he was doing great when he was playing with Raymond + Hansen but AV kept messing around with the lines trying to get other lines going).

Be realistic, when you're an offensive player playing with 4th liners... you're really not put in a position to succeed. Andrew Ebbett for whatever reason was ahead of him on the depth chart and even was called Chicago (AHL)'s best forward at the start of the NHL season (i got no idea why since from what i saw, JS was clearly better)... plus made the team initially (again one of the odd decisions AV made but he always seem to have his favorites). Canuck's actually started winning AFTER JS was put into the line-up on a line with Raymond and Hansen. When JS was on a line with Raymond and Hansen, his production was actually pretty good (while he produced basically nothing with Kassian/Weise and i think he also played a bit with sestito? Not sure since you won't notice him when he's playing on the 4th line... that was an energy line and he doesn't actually hit much).

As far as bring in a different type of 3rd liner... of course that is possible but its not like Tortorella only coaches physical/tight checking hockey... TB was actually a skill/speed open ice hockey and that's also where he won his cup. Quite possible with the roster we have that Tortorella decides to play open hockey instead of tight checking hockey. Lets be realistic, we don't actually have the make-up to play physical tight checking hockey...

Sedins - not exactly physical players, they play decent defense but are as close to "soft" star players as you'll get
Booth - he's anything but a defensive player... he hits and can play physical but he isn't good in his own zone at all
ZK - Suspect in his own end but does play physical

That's at least 1/2 the top 6 that can't really play NYR's style of tight checking, physical hockey. On top of that, with health concerns for Kesler, do you really want him to play all out physical hockey in the regular season?

Also if you really want an elite shutdown center for the playoffs, that's what Kesler can do and do better than almost anyone in the NHL. If you can have your 3rd line produce offensively, then just put Kesler into the shutdown role. Also as proven by Chicago, you kinda need offense from your bottom 6 to win a cup (heck they got more offensive from their bottom 6 than top 6).

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07-15-2013, 12:17 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
How many people are suggesting this? Haven't seen it suggested all that much (or at all for that matter beside you). Waiving him would be horrible asset management given he still has value. Sure he has to clear waivers but that doesn't mean he doesn't have value. He would be an NHLer on a quite a few teams (at least they would give him a chance to prove he belongs in the NHL). His offensive skill set is there and he showed flashes of that. Problem is AV never really gave him a chance (honestly he was doing great when he was playing with Raymond + Hansen but AV kept messing around with the lines trying to get other lines going).

Be realistic, when you're an offensive player playing with 4th liners... you're really not put in a position to succeed. Andrew Ebbett for whatever reason was ahead of him on the depth chart and even was called Chicago (AHL)'s best forward at the start of the NHL season (i got no idea why since from what i saw, JS was clearly better)... plus made the team initially (again one of the odd decisions AV made but he always seem to have his favorites). Canuck's actually started winning AFTER JS was put into the line-up on a line with Raymond and Hansen. When JS was on a line with Raymond and Hansen, his production was actually pretty good (while he produced basically nothing with Kassian/Weise and i think he also played a bit with sestito? Not sure since you won't notice him when he's playing on the 4th line... that was an energy line and he doesn't actually hit much).

As far as bring in a different type of 3rd liner... of course that is possible but its not like Tortorella only coaches physical/tight checking hockey... TB was actually a skill/speed open ice hockey and that's also where he won his cup. Quite possible with the roster we have that Tortorella decides to play open hockey instead of tight checking hockey. Lets be realistic, we don't actually have the make-up to play physical tight checking hockey...

Sedins - not exactly physical players, they play decent defense but are as close to "soft" star players as you'll get
Booth - he's anything but a defensive player... he hits and can play physical but he isn't good in his own zone at all
ZK - Suspect in his own end but does play physical

That's at least 1/2 the top 6 that can't really play NYR's style of tight checking, physical hockey. On top of that, with health concerns for Kesler, do you really want him to play all out physical hockey in the regular season?

Also if you really want an elite shutdown center for the playoffs, that's what Kesler can do and do better than almost anyone in the NHL. If you can have your 3rd line produce offensively, then just put Kesler into the shutdown role. Also as proven by Chicago, you kinda need offense from your bottom 6 to win a cup (heck they got more offensive from their bottom 6 than top 6).

I'm not saying this. I don't think he should be waived at all.

There are others that have brought up the argument that he is in danger of being waived. Go look up posts by HardyVan for reference.

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07-15-2013, 12:32 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'm not saying this. I don't think he should be waived at all.

There are others that have brought up the argument that he is in danger of being waived. Go look up posts by HardyVan for reference.
I'm sure there are a few others but you were stating the possibility or i should say you think there's a chance he might be waived... which is what i disagree with. I'm pretty sure right now he has trade value so why waive someone who would be picked up right away by Florida?

Also i argued why Tortorella might not want a different direction on the 3rd line and JS might be the type of player he actually wants on the 3rd line (you bought up trading for a different type of 3rd line player, thus leaving no spot for JS). Besides we saw Roy move up to the 2nd line to attempt playing with Kesler last year... JS actually brings a very similar skill set (of course he hasn't produced yet or this discussion wouldn't even be happening) and that is another look Tortorella might try (again we don't know exactly what Tortorella will do and he probably doesn't until he gets a bit more time to see exactly what he has).

Also note Grabner was waived by Florida and that was a bad move by them after they traded for him. So it wouldn't really be 2.0 and that has proven to be horrible asset management by Florida (not that their management has been all that good in recent years anyways... 1 playoff appearance in an entire CBA cycle while many bottom 5 finishes).

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07-15-2013, 12:46 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
By his play alone, not the number of games or how many times he was sent down, he's an NHLer. If he's able to impact the game more than some veterans, and is above comparative journeyman, he's an NHLer.

Again, this isn't about him reaching his expected ceiling, or surpassing it. This is about outperforming the actual bubble players in the league, and some veterans. If we are looking at his possession impact on the game, and the events therein, he's an NHLer.
To me this is just a massive over-emphasis on one stat (corsi), especially given that that stat was likely highly influenced by the very, very soft minutes he was given.

Again, he was sent down 3 times this season. He was gifted the #2 center position, and utterly failed to claim it, to the point where the Derek Roy trade was forced by his poor performance. He finished the year in the AHL. He scored at a 7 goal, 25 point pace with (mostly) top-6 icetime.

That does not exactly scream 'decent NHL player' to me.

And no doubt, there are bubble players that are worse than him. But many 4th liners are bad players who are just there to bring an ingredient to a roster.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean
It should not happen when this good team has had questions about developing prospects. It's not about keeping everyone. It's about being more patient with prospects so that they are not traded too early.

A key point you hit on there is gaining confidence. Was Schroeder allowed the time and the leeway to become confident with the NHL game? I would say no. The two elite centres will impeded that progress, true. However, that type of set up could also be enough to bring a player like Schroeder along more slowly. He will still get his 2nd unit PP time, and softer matchups to learn, due to the great centres ahead of him.
This team has been massively patient with him - what you're saying would make sense if it was still 2011, but it isn't. It isn't about people saying 'dump him!', it's about the fact that his waiver exemption is coming to a close and if he doesn't make a big step forward next year, we have no choice but to dump him.

And disagree that he wasn't given an opportunity to grow confident with the NHL game. He was given an opportunity that most players in his position would kill for - the #2 center position on a team that had just won the President's Trophy. Tons of icetime, was kept in the lineup all year until the trade deadline despite a total lack of production.

Again, I'm not writing him off, and I'm not saying we should just get rid of him. But people seem to have their heads in the sand about the fact that this is a guy who's used up about 8 of his 9 lives here, and is pretty much on his last chance come training camp in September.

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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
Full agree with this. If he's better than replacement level he's already an NHL'er. Again, I just don't understand the seeming desire to dump young guys who've at least shown they can play at this level or the lack of patience associated with it, when the mantra is to get younger in the first place and the team has been criticized in the past by fans for not bringing enough youth along.
Again, it's not a desire to 'dump young guys'.

It's a case of the clock being about to strike midnight on a guy who hasn't established himself as an NHL player 4 years down the road from being a #1 pick.

Last year should have been his time to step up and shine. He didn't, and now Kesler is healthy and Horvat and Gaunce are gaining him and are going to be chomping at the bit to claim the same roster spot.

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Originally Posted by denkiteki View Post
How many people are suggesting this? Haven't seen it suggested all that much (or at all for that matter beside you). Waiving him would be horrible asset management given he still has value. Sure he has to clear waivers but that doesn't mean he doesn't have value. He would be an NHLer on a quite a few teams (at least they would give him a chance to prove he belongs in the NHL). His offensive skill set is there and he showed flashes of that. Problem is AV never really gave him a chance (honestly he was doing great when he was playing with Raymond + Hansen but AV kept messing around with the lines trying to get other lines going).

Be realistic, when you're an offensive player playing with 4th liners... you're really not put in a position to succeed. Andrew Ebbett for whatever reason was ahead of him on the depth chart and even was called Chicago (AHL)'s best forward at the start of the NHL season (i got no idea why since from what i saw, JS was clearly better)... plus made the team initially (again one of the odd decisions AV made but he always seem to have his favorites). Canuck's actually started winning AFTER JS was put into the line-up on a line with Raymond and Hansen. When JS was on a line with Raymond and Hansen, his production was actually pretty good (while he produced basically nothing with Kassian/Weise and i think he also played a bit with sestito? Not sure since you won't notice him when he's playing on the 4th line... that was an energy line and he doesn't actually hit much).
And again, this is totally false. Can't believe people are still typing this stuff.

Schroeder spent the majority of the season until the trade deadline as our #2 center. He was demoted to the 4th line for 6 games when Kesler was briefly healthy, then ended up going back to the 2nd line again. People just don't seem to remember the month-long stretch when he was playing 14-15 minutes/game and scoring absolutely zilch.

His icetime was consistent with what other top rookies received this year - nearly identical to a guy like Brendan Gallagher and not far off Nail Yakupov. He was given a big chance to perform here.

Andrew Ebbett saw more icetime than Jordan Schroder in 4 of the 33 games that Schroeder played this season. The notion that somehow Ebbett 'blocked' him is completely, utterly false.

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07-15-2013, 01:25 AM
  #685
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To me this is just a massive over-emphasis on one stat (corsi), especially given that that stat was likely highly influenced by the very, very soft minutes he was given.

Fenwick is also available. His CF%, and his CF% adjusted for zone starts also provide a counterpoint to his lower CorsiRelQoC numbers. The term "soft minutes" is also contested by the emphasis on TOI and not Corsi as the truer representation of the shutdown forwards and top shutdown Dpairs. Basically, there are multiple statistically sources, per advanced stats, that don't align with what you are saying.

There is actually a de-emphasis placed on Corsi alone here, because if it was just about Corsi, there would no argument, he would absolutely be an NHLer.


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Again, he was sent down 3 times this season. He was gifted the #2 center position, and utterly failed to claim it, to the point where the Derek Roy trade was forced by his poor performance. He finished the year in the AHL. He scored at a 7 goal, 25 point pace with (mostly) top-6 icetime.

That does not exactly scream 'decent NHL player' to me.

And no doubt, there are bubble players that are worse than him. But many 4th liners are bad players who are just there to bring an ingredient to a roster.

Per the advanced stats, he is an NHLer on the level of some veterans (beat out Raymond in CF%), and definitely better than journeyman like Ebbett. That's the only case that I am making here. Sure, this can be debated with the regular counting stats. Perfectly fine for yourself to not consider him a decent NHL player based on those alone. But per the advanced metrics, from multiple sources, there's little counter argument.

Failing to seize an opportunity can be attributed to not being ready overall. It need not be predictive of anything as he is still developing. He just wasn't ready at the time the team required him to be.


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This team has been massively patient with him - what you're saying would make sense if it was still 2011, but it isn't. It isn't about people saying 'dump him!', it's about the fact that his waiver exemption is coming to a close and if he doesn't make a big step forward next year, we have no choice but to dump him.

And disagree that he wasn't given an opportunity to grow confident with the NHL game. He was given an opportunity that most players in his position would kill for - the #2 center position on a team that had just won the President's Trophy. Tons of icetime, was kept in the lineup all year until the trade deadline despite a total lack of production.

Again, I'm not writing him off, and I'm not saying we should just get rid of him. But people seem to have their heads in the sand about the fact that this is a guy who's used up about 8 of his 9 lives here, and is pretty much on his last chance come training camp in September.

He doesn't need to take a big step next year. If he repeated his performance from last year, possession wise, there would be little justification for dumping him.

This sounds eerily similar to Grabner. He was in danger of being waived from flopping in his last camp. We haven't been at that stage with Schroeder.

There is no one keeping their head in the sand here. Some have chosen to look beyond the counting stats to formulate their picture of the player, others have not. That's all. I for one don't think he's in danger of anything at this point. Now, if he comes to camp and completely flops like Grabner did, then we'll see...

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07-15-2013, 02:32 AM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Fenwick is also available. His CF%, and his CF% adjusted for zone starts also provide a counterpoint to his lower CorsiRelQoC numbers. The term "soft minutes" is also contested by the emphasis on TOI and not Corsi as the truer representation of the shutdown forwards and top shutdown Dpairs. Basically, there are multiple statistically sources, per advanced stats, that don't align with what you are saying.

There is actually a de-emphasis placed on Corsi alone here, because if it was just about Corsi, there would no argument, he would absolutely be an NHLer.

Per the advanced stats, he is an NHLer on the level of some veterans (beat out Raymond in CF%), and definitely better than journeyman like Ebbett. That's the only case that I am making here. Sure, this can be debated with the regular counting stats. Perfectly fine for yourself to not consider him a decent NHL player based on those alone. But per the advanced metrics, from multiple sources, there's little counter argument.
Fenwick and Corsi are basically the same thing (less blocked shots included in totals), so of course they say the same thing.

And no, I don't buy it. Schroeder's advanced stats look good because the opposition generated very few shots when he was on the ice.

But again, that icetime was very soft, and I don't care what the formulas say, they aren't perfect. When you look at the raw corsi/fenwick numbers for Ballard/Tanev, you see exactly the same effect - very soft minutes, few shots for, very few shots against. Doesn't mean Keith Ballard was good defensively, and even adjusted for qualcomp he comes out OK. And you see this effect quite often with fringe players in soft minutes - low shot totals both for and against, decent corsi/fenwick numbers. Does it hold in tougher minutes? Sometimes, sometimes not.

I like advanced stats, but to me there's a massive danger of not being able to see the forest for the trees here. The fact that a guy was able to saw off possession in super-soft minutes doesn't automatically project that he'll do fine when matched up against tougher opposition. To ignore his blatant lack of offensive production (in situations where he should have been perfectly set up to produce) because of those potentially screwy possession stats is to me flawed analysis.

A top-6 NHL forward getting the sort of minutes that Schroeder did should absolutely *clean up*, both in terms of regular and advanced stats. The fact that he was 'ok' to me is neither here nor there, and we can't draw many assumptions from it, other than the most basic one - he's good enough defensively that he can hold his own against bad opposition players when placed in favourable situations.

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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean
Failing to seize an opportunity can be attributed to not being ready overall. It need not be predictive of anything as he is still developing. He just wasn't ready at the time the team required him to be.

He doesn't need to take a big step next year. If he repeated his performance from last year, possession wise, there would be little justification for dumping him.
A #3 center that can't score, can't PK, and can't handle tough matchups is not exactly a boon to a roster. And like I said previously, I find it kind of funny after all the flak that Wellwood took here, Schroeder is somehow being celebrated for potentially someday turning into another Wellwood ... who everyone including his biggest supporters felt was not a guy a contending team should have playing the minutes he was.

And again, he's competing against Horvat and Gaunce for those minutes coming out of camp, and the impression I get from management is that they're keen for those guys to grab positions. We'll see what happens.

For the record, based on what I know now, I'd rather have Schroeder on the roster next year than Gaunce, but I can sense a direction that this is heading at present. We'll see what happens.


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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean
This sounds eerily similar to Grabner. He was in danger of being waived from flopping in his last camp. We haven't been at that stage with Schroeder.

There is no one keeping their head in the sand here. Some have chosen to look beyond the counting stats to formulate their picture of the player, others have not. That's all. I for one don't think he's in danger of anything at this point. Now, if he comes to camp and completely flops like Grabner did, then we'll see...
It also sounds like Holden, Reid, and so on. Or a guy like Zach Boychuk, who is an incredibly similar prospect to Schroeder and was in the exact same situation last offseason. Hell, Boychuk's 31-game rookie season was a near carbon-copy of Schroeder's, right down to the advanced stats. If you're looking at guys who haven't established themselves as NHL regulars at the end of their ELCs, there are a *ton* more Boychuks than Grabners, so tossing Grabner's name out there is to me a bit disingenuous.

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07-15-2013, 03:49 AM
  #687
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Fenwick and Corsi are basically the same thing (less blocked shots included in totals), so of course they say the same thing.

And no, I don't buy it. Schroeder's advanced stats look good because the opposition generated very few shots when he was on the ice.

There's a reason they generated fewer shots on the ice when he was playing... That's why he's considered a low event player (by some anyway).

Correct about Corsi and Fenwick, but then is your argument that we should ignore advanced stats here altogether?


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But again, that icetime was very soft, and I don't care what the formulas say, they aren't perfect. When you look at the raw corsi/fenwick numbers for Ballard/Tanev, you see exactly the same effect - very soft minutes, few shots for, very few shots against. Doesn't mean Keith Ballard was good defensively, and even adjusted for qualcomp he comes out OK. And you see this effect quite often with fringe players in soft minutes - low shot totals both for and against, decent corsi/fenwick numbers. Does it hold in tougher minutes? Sometimes, sometimes not.

I like advanced stats, but to me there's a massive danger of not being able to see the forest for the trees here. The fact that a guy was able to saw off possession in super-soft minutes doesn't automatically project that he'll do fine when matched up against tougher opposition. To ignore his blatant lack of offensive production (in situations where he should have been perfectly set up to produce) because of those potentially screwy possession stats is to me flawed analysis.

A top-6 NHL forward getting the sort of minutes that Schroeder did should absolutely *clean up*, both in terms of regular and advanced stats. The fact that he was 'ok' to me is neither here nor there, and we can't draw many assumptions from it, other than the most basic one - he's good enough defensively that he can hold his own against bad opposition players when placed in favourable situations.

Again, how are you determining "bad opposition", and by extension "soft minutes"? As mentioned already, the shutdown players, who Schroeder would be most matched against due to his higher Ozone starts, would have a lower average Corsi average than the more offensive forwards+Dmen on their team. It's why shutdown players are harder to quantify with advanced stats. It's why Eric T of NHLNumbers posits TOI has the true/truer signifier of QualComp for _forwards_. Here is one article explaining the differences: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/16/a-co...ed-on-ice-time

It's also not the same for Dmen, as the article explains. As I have said before, it's no one stat will quantify what type of competition a forward truly faces. Some work at a glance. League wide though, these stats also show Schroeder to be compared to guys like Raymond and some players like Palmieri and even Ryan. A statistical argument can be made to compare Schroeder's effect on possession alone, not points, given these comparables. One could also be made to differentiate him from journeyman.

I think it's not so much seeing the forest for the trees, as it is accepting a statistical argument doesn't support your subjective assertion. They don't reconcile, so a choice has to be made: Disregard them and trust what you see alone, or change your current perception to match what the data is saying.





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A #3 center that can't score, can't PK, and can't handle tough matchups is not exactly a boon to a roster. And like I said previously, I find it kind of funny after all the flak that Wellwood took here, Schroeder is somehow being celebrated for potentially someday turning into another Wellwood ... who everyone including his biggest supporters felt was not a guy a contending team should have playing the minutes he was.

And again, he's competing against Horvat and Gaunce for those minutes coming out of camp, and the impression I get from management is that they're keen for those guys to grab positions. We'll see what happens.

For the record, based on what I know now, I'd rather have Schroeder on the roster next year than Gaunce, but I can sense a direction that this is heading at present. We'll see what happens.

Do we know he can't PK? Can't score given more development? Can't handle tough minutes definitively?

I'm unsure how to respond to the rest. Are you saying that he is unlikely to make it due to management's (inferred) perception of his play/role?


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It also sounds like Holden, Reid, and so on. Or a guy like Zach Boychuk, who is an incredibly similar prospect to Schroeder and was in the exact same situation last offseason. Hell, Boychuk's 31-game rookie season was a near carbon-copy of Schroeder's, right down to the advanced stats. If you're looking at guys who haven't established themselves as NHL regulars at the end of their ELCs, there are a *ton* more Boychuks than Grabners, so tossing Grabner's name out there is to me a bit disingenuous.


Grabner's name is only being tossed out there as a lesson to a team that was not overly patient in _all_ prospect development. The team should have been more patient with him. More patient with Holden, Reid, or whichever other prospect comes through the pipeline. With a natural preference to 1st rounders with clear skill. And in the specific case of Schroeder, great hockey IQ. The process should be long and drawn out for all such types.

On the whole, what's there to lose? The pipeline isn't exactly overflowing. Schroeder is not going to be directly challenged at this point, so they have a bit of time. Worst case scenario, he absolutely flops and becomes worse than comparative NHLers and NHL journeyman... As of right now, the situation isn't that, so why panic?

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07-15-2013, 08:42 AM
  #688
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People are suggesting this, and it's a possibility, if I am being fair. Could be that Tortorella doesn't like what Schroeder brings. Or that they acquire someone more suited to the 3rd line C role. Can't rule anything out.
Schroeder gives us the option at an offensive 3rd line but it means that the Kesler line has to become our match-up line.

Sedin - Sedin - Kassian/Jensen (we have to trust the Sedins to carry a youngster)
Higgins - Kesler - Burrows (solid shutdown line)
Booth - Schroeder - Hansen (if Schroeder and Booth can provide offense, we're good - if not, upgrades will be required...Gagner as a deadline buy?)
Wiese - Lain/Santorelli - Richardson (Needs to be able to win face-offs and be solid defensively which it should be able to do)

Seems like it makes sense to me...but our 4th line will need to be good enough to take defensive zone draws and provide the players for the #1 PK unit because neither our 1st or 3rd line can do either...although I bet Torts works on the Sedins to make them more effective two-way guys.

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07-15-2013, 08:54 AM
  #689
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It also sounds like Holden, Reid, and so on. Or a guy like Zach Boychuk, who is an incredibly similar prospect to Schroeder and was in the exact same situation last offseason. Hell, Boychuk's 31-game rookie season was a near carbon-copy of Schroeder's, right down to the advanced stats. If you're looking at guys who haven't established themselves as NHL regulars at the end of their ELCs, there are a *ton* more Boychuks than Grabners, so tossing Grabner's name out there is to me a bit disingenuous.
Errrrrr what?

No but seriously I agree. There is no good for us having an offensive minded #3C. Everyone gives Wellwood **** like you said, I liked him in the role he played, a warrior in April, but no team with a depth centre that only thinks about scoring goals wins a Cup. Specifically with Kesler at #2C. Kesler I think needs to be another offensive option if we want to win at all. As good he is at checking, he needs to score. THough I am grateful for his services in the Chicago series during 2011, only Toews scored with him not on the ice, he needs to be a Swiss army knife. He should be checking, scoring, dominating, at Torts' demand. Like he did in game 2. Everyone in that locker room should feel like me after we lose a game. Yes, we lost a game. But, does that diminish our pride? Does that break our spirit? Not to me. It's not done til we've lost four. And in my mind, We don't lose four. We battle for every single inch of ice we get, and we win it, and what happens from there is on us. We play for pride and glory. We play and pay the price because we want to be the first Champions of this city. We know football doesn't matter, we play for the ice and trophies that come with it.

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07-15-2013, 04:38 PM
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Schroeder gives us the option at an offensive 3rd line but it means that the Kesler line has to become our match-up line.

Sedin - Sedin - Kassian/Jensen (we have to trust the Sedins to carry a youngster)
Higgins - Kesler - Burrows (solid shutdown line)
Booth - Schroeder - Hansen (if Schroeder and Booth can provide offense, we're good - if not, upgrades will be required...Gagner as a deadline buy?)
Wiese - Lain/Santorelli - Richardson (Needs to be able to win face-offs and be solid defensively which it should be able to do)

Seems like it makes sense to me...but our 4th line will need to be good enough to take defensive zone draws and provide the players for the #1 PK unit because neither our 1st or 3rd line can do either...although I bet Torts works on the Sedins to make them more effective two-way guys.
I'm certainly not opposed to the general concept of this, and i think it is very likely one of many considerations that will have to be examined come camp, but i think i'd swap a few cogs around in that setup, personally.

I somewhat agree on the Sedins needing to 'carry' a youngster...but at the same time, this really doesn't seem like the year for that. The changing demands Torts is likely to place on the Twins is, i think going to be quite the handful for them. What it sounds like he wants from them...they're going to need all the defensive/shot blocking help on their line they can get. And i think their lack of speed is potentially going to be exposed a bit more as well, in that they really aren't going to set up the sort of hard driving forecheck Torts will want...Which is where the speed of someone like Burrows really comes into play. I just don't see Kassian or Jensen providing that element that's missing there, particularly on the defensive end of things.

And more to the point of this thread and Schroeder...if he's the 'offensive' 3rd line Center, i'm not sure i'd want to keep Hansen there over say...Kassian. It seemed Raymond was the guy who had noticeable chemistry with Schroeder, whereas Hansen was useful in that trio for his forechecking abilities and defensive insulation...but i would think Kassian should be able to fill that role quite well, while bringing more size to the table.

A Booth-Schroeder-Kassian line is something that i really hope to at least see examined in preseason. I think if Schroeder is going to succeed, that might be the sort of situation where it works. Thinking of it something like a poor-man's Lucic-Krejci-Horton line.

Of course the real caveat there is...saddling Schroeder with two weaker defensive players. In a 'sheltered' role. But nonetheless, in that scenario you have to bank on Schroeder being the sort of responsible 2-way player many are touting him as...Which personally, i'm not entirely sold on at this point.

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07-15-2013, 05:26 PM
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No one's panicking at all, but Schroeder needs to show something at this point, that's all anyone has said negatively about him. He looks more like a bust than a scoring centre at the NHL level at this point. You can't just sit on prospects forever either. He'll be 23 years old and on his 5th season since his draft year to start the season, with not a lot acccomplished to speak of at this point. Waivers and Europe become factors if he doesn't take this opportunity and run with it. Look at the 2009 draft. If those players aren't established, they're flirting with bust status. Schroeder falls in the latter catergory.

Patience is great, but the breaking point is near with Schroeder. We can't keep giving him raises and chances forever. The system is just not designed that way. Eventually you cut your losses and expose him to waivers (again not much of a choice soon) or he goes to Europe for a better opportunity. The clock is very much ticking. Big year for Jordan.
Agree this is a big year for him, hopefully his shoulder doesn't hamper him too much. I'm not sure how he has been given multiple chances so far. He's really only had one and he performed so so, very up and down. He certainly wasn't as bad as people are pretending but to expose him to waivers at this point would be another dumb move by this organization.

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07-15-2013, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
No one's panicking at all, but Schroeder needs to show something at this point, that's all anyone has said negatively about him. He looks more like a bust than a scoring centre at the NHL level at this point. You can't just sit on prospects forever either. He'll be 23 years old and on his 5th season since his draft year to start the season, with not a lot acccomplished to speak of at this point. Waivers and Europe become factors if he doesn't take this opportunity and run with it. Look at the 2009 draft. If those players aren't established, they're flirting with bust status. Schroeder falls in the latter catergory.

Patience is great, but the breaking point is near with Schroeder. We can't keep giving him raises and chances forever. The system is just not designed that way. Eventually you cut your losses and expose him to waivers (again not much of a choice soon) or he goes to Europe for a better opportunity. The clock is very much ticking. Big year for Jordan.
I agree, more-or-less, but I think if the Canucks give up on Schroeder he would be traded, perhaps for a lower pick, rather than waived.

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07-15-2013, 08:25 PM
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Again, it's not a desire to 'dump young guys'.

It's a case of the clock being about to strike midnight on a guy who hasn't established himself as an NHL player 4 years down the road from being a #1 pick.

Last year should have been his time to step up and shine. He didn't, and now Kesler is healthy and Horvat and Gaunce are gaining him and are going to be chomping at the bit to claim the same roster spot.
I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe they won't give him a chance to get comfortable as the 3C. Who's calling for the clock to strike midnight in the first place? Almost by necessity they're going to have run with a cheap young C in that position, barring a surprise signing of a veteran for a low cap hit.

After all, he's already better than a multitude of 4th liners who take on soft competition and still get out-possessed. If that's not proving you're already good enough to be an NHL'er, I don't know what does. If you mean "breaking out", then that's a different term altogether...

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07-15-2013, 09:28 PM
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I'm certainly not opposed to the general concept of this, and i think it is very likely one of many considerations that will have to be examined come camp, but i think i'd swap a few cogs around in that setup, personally.

I somewhat agree on the Sedins needing to 'carry' a youngster...but at the same time, this really doesn't seem like the year for that. The changing demands Torts is likely to place on the Twins is, i think going to be quite the handful for them. What it sounds like he wants from them...they're going to need all the defensive/shot blocking help on their line they can get. And i think their lack of speed is potentially going to be exposed a bit more as well, in that they really aren't going to set up the sort of hard driving forecheck Torts will want...Which is where the speed of someone like Burrows really comes into play. I just don't see Kassian or Jensen providing that element that's missing there, particularly on the defensive end of things.

And more to the point of this thread and Schroeder...if he's the 'offensive' 3rd line Center, i'm not sure i'd want to keep Hansen there over say...Kassian. It seemed Raymond was the guy who had noticeable chemistry with Schroeder, whereas Hansen was useful in that trio for his forechecking abilities and defensive insulation...but i would think Kassian should be able to fill that role quite well, while bringing more size to the table.

A Booth-Schroeder-Kassian line is something that i really hope to at least see examined in preseason. I think if Schroeder is going to succeed, that might be the sort of situation where it works. Thinking of it something like a poor-man's Lucic-Krejci-Horton line.

Of course the real caveat there is...saddling Schroeder with two weaker defensive players. In a 'sheltered' role. But nonetheless, in that scenario you have to bank on Schroeder being the sort of responsible 2-way player many are touting him as...Which personally, i'm not entirely sold on at this point.
I agree with a lot of what you said but the last part...

As good of a 2 way game as Schroeder has... putting him with basically 2 defensive liability is really asking for trouble. You could put Kesler with Booth and ZK and still could have problems unless somehow ZK's defensive coverage improve. Both him and Booth were benched various times last year because of their defensive coverage (or to be more exact, not being where they were suppose to and leaving their man wide open).

JS has a 2 way game but is not exactly a defensive wizard thats good enough to cover 2 players. I would suggest putting him with 1 of them and then having one of Hansen/Higgins/Burrows on the other wing since all 3 of them are responsible/good defensive player and helps balance the line. Not to mention it seems to make sense giving Kesler and Booth experiment another go (hopefully no more health issues with either of them) and seeing what they can do together. A line of Kesler/Booth/Burrows could be very interesting leaving the other 3 wingers to play with Sedins/JS.

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07-16-2013, 11:44 PM
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I agree with a lot of what you said but the last part...

As good of a 2 way game as Schroeder has... putting him with basically 2 defensive liability is really asking for trouble. You could put Kesler with Booth and ZK and still could have problems unless somehow ZK's defensive coverage improve. Both him and Booth were benched various times last year because of their defensive coverage (or to be more exact, not being where they were suppose to and leaving their man wide open).

JS has a 2 way game but is not exactly a defensive wizard thats good enough to cover 2 players. I would suggest putting him with 1 of them and then having one of Hansen/Higgins/Burrows on the other wing since all 3 of them are responsible/good defensive player and helps balance the line. Not to mention it seems to make sense giving Kesler and Booth experiment another go (hopefully no more health issues with either of them) and seeing what they can do together. A line of Kesler/Booth/Burrows could be very interesting leaving the other 3 wingers to play with Sedins/JS.
We may see this lineup as we lack depth down the middle and I am not convinced Richardson would be better than Schroeder as a third line centre. I think Richardson is best suited for the 4th line role. But I don't think Schroeder is best suited to the middle in the NHL unless it is with two very, very good wingers. I doubt he will develop to the point where he can carry an offensive line but is rather a complimentary piece.

I think Schroeder's highest upside would be on Kesler's wing.
I've heard the argument that Schroeder failed on the wing in the AHL but i think it should be tried again under a different system and the AHL sample size seems small.
Schroeder has the wheels, hands and vision to compliment Kesler and Booth/Burrows and though he lacks size he is willing to go to the dirty areas and competes. He won't be a puck protector like Kassian or Kesler but can get in and out of corners quickly.
I don't think he can carry a line but i think can be a good complimentary player and put up 0.5ppg and add some creativity to that line. I think he can pot 15 goals with around 40-50 points on a line with Kesler and with some 2nd unit pp time.
The major weakness i see with him on the wing is his ability to win puck battles along the boards in the defensive zone, but i think that can be improved with experience as he competes hard. I can see him thriving as a quick puck stripping and breakout winger who can effectively take the puck up ice and start a counter attack. This is something that admire about teams like Chicago and hope torts allows our player to do more in his system. I think Shcroeder breaking up ice with Kesler and or Booth supporting will cause problems for other teams.
I think there are more positives than negatives for him on the wing and it would max out his potential but whether or not it is best for the team overall remains to be seen. I hope Gaunce makes the team as the 3rd line centre but I'm not sure he is quite ready yet.

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