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Patrick Kane vs John Tavares vs Jonathan Toews vs Taylor Hall

View Poll Results: Who would you want for your team?
Patrick Kane 39 12.26%
John Tavares 163 51.26%
Jonathan Toews 87 27.36%
Taylor Hall 29 9.12%
Voters: 318. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2013, 11:23 AM
  #126
Trance Kuja
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Originally Posted by Kurtosis View Post
It also says best two way forward and there is no argument who wins that.
Clearly Kane.

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07-17-2013, 11:30 AM
  #127
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I'll take Patty Kane for the Rangers

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07-17-2013, 11:34 AM
  #128
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I actually think Tavares is better offensively than Toews. But they are close and Toews is a selke winner capable of PK duties and shutting down the other teams top line center. Tavares meanwhile is below average defensively and I've seen him enough times to come to that conclusion. If you want to switch their situations than Tavares better also be prepared to be a defensive first center committed towards contributing to a Jennings Trophy. Quite frankly, I believe he would fail in that capacity. That to me is not worth the couple extra points he'd put up with hossa and saad.

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07-17-2013, 11:47 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by KarlssonnSchultz View Post
What the guy was saying is that most people who choose Toews do it because he is significantly better defensively. Most people who choose Tavares do it because is better offensively.

He then showed stats that said that Tavares and Toews are actually very close offensively. Toews is still 3 times the player that Tavares is defensively.

You then came with the excuse that if his linemates don't play well then Tavares can't either. Well, if he is as good as you think he is, he should be able to carry a line by himself no?

For example: Taylor Hall had 24% more points than the next highest oiler (Gagner) and 26% more than third. Tavares had 6% more than the next highest Islander (Moulson), and 26% more than third. Yet Taylor Hall doesn't deserve to be in this poll and Tavares wins because he doesn't have good linemates?

Can I not say that if RNH had more than a 5% shooting percentage this year and Eberle's didn't drop by 6% than Hall would have easily had 60 points? That is exactly what your argument is and it makes no sense on either side.

Tavares is a great player. It's upsetting how over rated he's getting.
Ummm, no. The guy claimed Toews is a better offensive player because of his PPG. I claimed that Tavares had more goals than all of the other 3, so obviously it's his lack of assists that make him a "worse" player. I then stated how assists rely on teammates scoring, and then stated how Moulson(Tavares' go-to winger in the goal-scoring dept.) had his worst statistical season in that regard.

It's really not hard. When you already have the weakest supporting cast of the bunch, and the best player of that group ends up snake-bitten for half of the season in the goal scoring department, you PROBABLY won't end up with as many assists as a guy who plays with Kane/Hossa/Sharp or RNH/Yakupov/Eberle.

Maybe I'm wrong...

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07-17-2013, 11:50 AM
  #130
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Clearly Kane.
Come on TK.

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07-17-2013, 11:51 AM
  #131
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Come on TK.
Obvious sarcasm.

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07-17-2013, 11:56 AM
  #132
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What? I voted JT too, but he's played a total of 6 playoff games....
6 games > Conn Smythe.

Voted Tavares.

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07-17-2013, 11:56 AM
  #133
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As an Isles fan, I'm shocked JT is winning this poll. As of RIGHT NOW, it should be Toews.

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07-17-2013, 12:02 PM
  #134
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I think the key word in the OP was potential. I think Toews is probably the best player on the list as of now, but imo Tavares has another level we haven't seen yet. Tavares has the most natural skill and hockey iq out of the four listed which is why i would take him if starting a franchise. It's easy to forget he's still only 22.

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07-17-2013, 12:03 PM
  #135
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Obvious sarcasm.
I'm tired, give me a break lol.

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07-17-2013, 12:06 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Ummm, no. The guy claimed Toews is a better offensive player because of his PPG. I claimed that Tavares had more goals than all of the other 3, so obviously it's his lack of assists that make him a "worse" player. I then stated how assists rely on teammates scoring, and then stated how Moulson(Tavares' go-to winger in the goal-scoring dept.) had his worst statistical season in that regard.

It's really not hard. When you already have the weakest supporting cast of the bunch, and the best player of that group ends up snake-bitten for half of the season in the goal scoring department, you PROBABLY won't end up with as many assists as a guy who plays with Kane/Hossa/Sharp or RNH/Yakupov/Eberle.

Maybe I'm wrong...
So now it's total goals that you're hanging your hat on? Goals per game would be the more appropriate stat to use - but if you want to use total goals, that's fine. But then you disregard total goals from the last 4 seasons because Toews has 3 more goals over those 4 seasons (115 to 112). So you must be using total goals over the past 3 seasons where Tavares has 4 more goals then Toews (88 to 84). However, Tavares has played more games over the past 3 seasons so his goals per game is still less than Toews. So I agree that the following statement is true:

Over the past three seasons, Tavares has scored more goals than Toews.

But based on all other comparisons, Toews is the better player than Tavares and as they say - AINEC.

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07-17-2013, 12:09 PM
  #137
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Dunno how you could argue that Kane isn't the best of the bunch right now. He has had the best career to this point, and is coming off easily the best season any of them have had.

The other three are very close.

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07-17-2013, 12:11 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
I think the key word in the OP was potential. I think Toews is probably the best player on the list as of now, but imo Tavares has another level we haven't seen yet. Tavares has the most natural skill and hockey iq out of the four listed which is why i would take him if starting a franchise. It's easy to forget he's still only 22.
man do I ever hate agreeing with Pens fans.

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07-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
... giant explanation of why Tavares would have more points with better linemates...

So yes, I do think supporting cast/linemates plays a great deal when comparing stats. There is no doubt in my mind that Tavares is a better offensive player when compared to Toews. Toews might be the better overall player, because his 2-way game is elite. Offensively though, I don't think you are giving Tavares his due.
The whole "what if" game can go both ways. What if the entire Blackhawk offence ran through Toews? What if Toews didn't have to share the puck, icetime, and offensive situations with Hossa/Sharp/Kane? What if Toews was given as much PP and ES time as Tavares? What if Toews ignored his defensive responsibilities more often in the name of offence? The reason I stay away of "what ifs" is because they are impossible to prove. And yet that is basically the entirety of the argument for Tavares.

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07-17-2013, 12:14 PM
  #140
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Don't think Hall deserves to be in this conversation right now. Voted Tavares but Kane and Toews are awfully close.

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07-17-2013, 12:17 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Dunno how you could argue that Kane isn't the best of the bunch right now. He has had the best career to this point, and is coming off easily the best season any of them have had.

The other three are very close.
You do realize that Toews is coming off a Selke trophy, 2nd team All-Star selection and finished 4th in Hart voting, right? Kane's Conn Smythe certainly makes it a discussion, but in no way was his season "easily better".

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07-17-2013, 12:22 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
You do realize that Toews is coming off a Selke trophy, 2nd team All-Star selection and finished 4th in Hart voting, right? Kane's Conn Smythe certainly makes it a discussion, but in no way was his season "easily better".
Kane deserved to be an All Star too. One of the voters had him as LW and ruined it, I believe. But yeah. Kane had a better offensive season for sure, taking into account him playing on that dreadful 2nd line, and Toews started a little slow, but both of them were phenomenal. Nothing to complain about.

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07-17-2013, 12:25 PM
  #143
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I'll take Tavares

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07-17-2013, 12:26 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Ummm, no. The guy claimed Toews is a better offensive player because of his PPG. I claimed that Tavares had more goals than all of the other 3, so obviously it's his lack of assists that make him a "worse" player. I then stated how assists rely on teammates scoring, and then stated how Moulson(Tavares' go-to winger in the goal-scoring dept.) had his worst statistical season in that regard.

It's really not hard. When you already have the weakest supporting cast of the bunch, and the best player of that group ends up snake-bitten for half of the season in the goal scoring department, you PROBABLY won't end up with as many assists as a guy who plays with Kane/Hossa/Sharp or RNH/Yakupov/Eberle.

Maybe I'm wrong...
First of all, no I didn't claim Toews is better offensively. In my mind him and Tavares have been virtually a wash thus far in their careers offensively. The stats back up that opinion.

Second, you conveniently, despite my post outlining a pretty comprehensive breakdown of their stats, picked one stat (goals) in one season (last year) to hang your hat on. If you were to look at my earlier posts you would see that Tavares and Toews have scored at a similar rate in their career no matter how you slice it. If anything the argument could be made that Toews has been a better goal scorer than Tavares thus far in their careers, since Toews goals per game has been consistently slightly higher no matter how you slice it (0.41 vs 0.38 career, 0.38 vs. 0.38 1st 4 years, 0.46 vs 0.42 last 3 years, 0.49 vs 0.45 last 2 years).

Tavares may very well become better than Toews offensively, but he simply isn't better right now. The lengths his supporters go to try to prove otherwise is amusing.

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07-17-2013, 12:27 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
So now it's total goals that you're hanging your hat on? Goals per game would be the more appropriate stat to use - but if you want to use total goals, that's fine. But then you disregard total goals from the last 4 seasons because Toews has 3 more goals over those 4 seasons (115 to 112). So you must be using total goals over the past 3 seasons where Tavares has 4 more goals then Toews (88 to 84). However, Tavares has played more games over the past 3 seasons so his goals per game is still less than Toews. So I agree that the following statement is true:

Over the past three seasons, Tavares has scored more goals than Toews.

But based on all other comparisons, Toews is the better player than Tavares and as they say - AINEC.
I'm going off of this past season, obviously. That, and I clearly only brought up the goal totals to show how much stock is being put into Tavares' lack of assists. A stat which, as I've shown before, was lacking mostly due to factors outside of his control(factors like his go-to wingers shooting% dropping 7 points).

If you want to say Toews is better based on how each played in their 1st and 2nd season, that's fine. I guess you'll win that argument. Considering Tavares is only 22, I'd rather base my opinion off of how he's played most recently. From what I've seen, Tavares is the better offensive player.

Maybe if I got to see Toews on a regular basis my opinion would be different. Unfortunately I live on the East Coast, and the one time I was able to watch him regularly over an extended period of time was during this past postseason. Obviously, it wasn't that impressive.

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07-17-2013, 12:29 PM
  #146
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Oilers fan voting Toews at this point.

Best all-around game out of any of these players.

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07-17-2013, 12:37 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
First of all, no I didn't claim Toews is better offensively. In my mind him and Tavares have been virtually a wash thus far in their careers offensively. The stats back up that opinion.

Second, you conveniently, despite my post outlining a pretty comprehensive breakdown of their stats, picked one stat (goals) in one season (last year) to hang your hat on. If you were to look at my earlier posts you would see that Tavares and Toews have scored at a similar rate in their career no matter how you slice it. If anything the argument could be made that Toews has been a better goal scorer than Tavares thus far in their careers, since Toews goals per game has been consistently slightly higher no matter how you slice it (0.41 vs 0.38 career, 0.38 vs. 0.38 1st 4 years, 0.46 vs 0.42 last 3 years, 0.49 vs 0.45 last 2 years).

Tavares may very well become better than Toews offensively, but he simply isn't better right now. The lengths his supporters go to try to prove otherwise is amusing.
Guy, that's fine. If you want to compare them NOW based on how they each did in their 1-4 seasons, go for it. I'm sure Toews will win. Considering Tavares has been a different player since his 3rd season, that's what I'll use as a measuring stick when seeing how he matches up to the games' best. If you think that's cherry picking, so be it. I just don't see how Tavares' rookie or even sophomore years have anything to do with how I or anyone should view him at this point in his career.

Either way, if you don't think PPG(more specifically, assist totals) is affected by supporting cast, I don't know what to tell you. You can call it "going to lengths", but IMO it's "going to lengths" by acting like it doesn't make a difference... or do you believe that you swapped both players, they would give you the exact same production?

Obviously it's a "what if", but I don't think that makes it moot. Especially when arguing about a guy's lack of assists, which directly relates to supporting cast.

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07-17-2013, 12:45 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Guy, that's fine. If you want to compare them NOW based on how they each did in their 1-4 seasons, go for it. I'm sure Toews will win. Considering Tavares has been a different player since his 3rd season, that's what I'll use as a measuring stick when seeing how he matches up to the games' best. If you think that's cherry picking, so be it. I just don't see how Tavares' rookie or even sophomore years have anything to do with how I or anyone should view him at this point in his career.

Either way, if you don't think PPG(more specifically, assist totals) is affected by supporting cast, I don't know what to tell you. You can call it "going to lengths", but IMO it's "going to lengths" by acting like it doesn't make a difference... or do you believe that you swapped both players, they would give you the exact same production?

Obviously it's a "what if", but I don't think that makes it moot. Especially when arguing about a guy's lack of assists, which directly relates to supporting cast.
Honestly its fine that you think Tavares is better , but you should just stop your arguments are kind of dumb, and everyone is pretty much proving you wrong.

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07-17-2013, 12:46 PM
  #149
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Based on needs and talent alone, I'll take Kane very easily.

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07-17-2013, 12:55 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Guy, that's fine. If you want to compare them NOW based on how they each did in their 1-4 seasons, go for it. I'm sure Toews will win. Considering Tavares has been a different player since his 3rd season, that's what I'll use as a measuring stick when seeing how he matches up to the games' best. If you think that's cherry picking, so be it. I just don't see how Tavares' rookie or even sophomore years have anything to do with how I or anyone should view him at this point in his career.
Since it appears from this post that you haven't even looked at the stats I have provided, I will repost them:

Last 2 seasons (since Tavares' 3rd season, which you suggested above):

Toews: 106 games, 52 goals, 105 points, 0.49 goals per game, 0.99 points per game
Tavares: 130 games, 59 goals, 128 points, 0.45 goals per game, 0.99 points per game

Again, there is virtually no difference.

Quote:
Either way, if you don't think PPG(more specifically, assist totals) is affected by supporting cast, I don't know what to tell you. You can call it "going to lengths", but IMO it's "going to lengths" by acting like it doesn't make a difference... or do you believe that you swapped both players, they would give you the exact same production?
I understand how assists can be affected by supporting cast. Just like I understand how offensive production can be affected by attention to defence, other good offensive players who need the puck as well, and less ES and PP time.

To the bolded, there is really no way to know... which is why it is stupid to argue about it. On the one hand, as everyone who votes for Tavares loves to point out, maybe Tavares would put up more points on Chicago. On the other hand maybe he doesn't, since he would be getting less icetime, wouldn't have the entire offence run through him, would have to share offensive opportunity with other good offensive players, play in a better defensive conference and play for a coach that expects a lot from his centres on the defensive end.

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