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NBA Discussion Thread Pt. II

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Old
07-17-2013, 07:54 AM
  #401
GWOW
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
You have a gift for oversimplification and hyperbole. I'm not saying you can't trade your picks. I'm saying you shouldn't going flushing pick after pick after pick to land mediocre crap like Bargnani. Can you not differentiate between piecing together assets to deal for Shaq, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Pau Gasol and what the Knicks have generally dealt their picks for? Those are names of a bit different caliber than Eddy Curry, Gerald Henderson, Andrea Bargnani, Othella Harrington, etc.

Did you miss the part a few pages ago where I talked about how smartly Houston orchestrated their rebuild and used it as a contrast to what the Knicks are doing? The Knicks are playing a low percentage game. They geared everything they had toward freeing up cap space for the summer of 2010 and then missed out on LeBron and got stuck putting together a team with no realistic title hopes. Now they're shooting to play the free agent lottery again in 2015. If you make free agency your only outlet to contention, then you leave yourself with extremely limited options. And that's what they've done. They have to hope two of Rondo, Love, and Aldridge really want to come to New York. Because if a franchise player hits the trade market between now and then, the Knicks don't remotely have the assets to land him.

Look, they could hit it big and a Carmelo Anthony/Rajon Rondo/Lamarcus Aldridge Knicks team could emerge from the 2015 offseason. But that's a longshot at best. If that's your only plan, then you're not planning very well.
Trade time:

Knicks get:

Carmelo Anthony
Amare Stoudamire
Tyson Chandler
Ray Felton
Andrea Bargnani

for

Gallinari
Chandler
Mozgof
Miller
Kostas Papanikolaou
Prentezis
Osby
Rautins
Kazemi
Hill
Royce White LOL
Novak
Camby
Q-Rich
2014 1st
2014 2nd
2016 1st
2016 2nd
2017 2nd

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Old
07-17-2013, 10:40 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
You have a gift for oversimplification and hyperbole. I'm not saying you can't trade your picks. I'm saying you shouldn't going flushing pick after pick after pick to land mediocre crap like Bargnani. Can you not differentiate between piecing together assets to deal for Shaq, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, and Pau Gasol and what the Knicks have generally dealt their picks for? Those are names of a bit different caliber than Eddy Curry, Gerald Henderson, Andrea Bargnani, Othella Harrington, etc.

Did you miss the part a few pages ago where I talked about how smartly Houston orchestrated their rebuild and used it as a contrast to what the Knicks are doing? The Knicks are playing a low percentage game. They geared everything they had toward freeing up cap space for the summer of 2010 and then missed out on LeBron and got stuck putting together a team with no realistic title hopes. Now they're shooting to play the free agent lottery again in 2015. If you make free agency your only outlet to contention, then you leave yourself with extremely limited options. And that's what they've done. They have to hope two of Rondo, Love, and Aldridge really want to come to New York. Because if a franchise player hits the trade market between now and then, the Knicks don't remotely have the assets to land him.

Look, they could hit it big and a Carmelo Anthony/Rajon Rondo/Lamarcus Aldridge Knicks team could emerge from the 2015 offseason. But that's a longshot at best. If that's your only plan, then you're not planning very well.
Just curious how that's a longshot.

You land Kevin Love, LMA, or somebody to play with Melo (or hell, even if SAS is somehow right and Melo goes to play in LA or something you just have even more cap space) OR you rebuild through the draft then, since we have 1st round picks sans 2016 for the years we would blow.

And you laud Houston, who's "rebuild" consists of trading for James Harden (smart move) and signing Dwight Howard (no brainer). None of those moves are much better than sign and trading for Tyson (brilliant move) and acquiring Melo (no brainer). I don't see how that's so much more brilliant than what the Knicks did/are planning to do.


Last edited by BlueshirtBlitz: 07-17-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old
07-17-2013, 11:18 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Just curious how that's a longshot.

You land Kevin Love, LMA, or somebody to play with Melo (or hell, even if SAS is somehow right and Melo goes to play in LA or something you just have even more cap space) OR you rebuild through the draft then, since we have 1st round picks sans 2016 for the years we would blow.

And you laud Houston, who's "rebuild" consists of trading for James Harden (smart move) and signing Dwight Howard (no brainer). None of those moves are much better than sign and trading for Tyson (brilliant move) and acquiring Melo (no brainer). I don't see how that's so much more brilliant than what the Knicks did/are planning to do.
Harden+Howard > Tyson+Melo imo and by a good margin.

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Old
07-17-2013, 12:26 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by RussianRangersFan View Post
Harden+Howard > Tyson+Melo imo and by a good margin.

The point he's making is that Houston improved themselves the same way the Knicks did -- by freeing up cap space, trading draft picks and signing expensive free agents.

They are going to be paying Asik and Lin a combined 30 million dollars in 2015.

Yup...model franchise right there.

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Old
07-17-2013, 04:13 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Trade time:

Knicks get:

Carmelo Anthony
Amare Stoudamire
Tyson Chandler
Ray Felton
Andrea Bargnani

for

Gallinari
Chandler
Mozgof
Miller
Kostas Papanikolaou
Prentezis
Osby
Rautins
Kazemi
Hill
Royce White LOL
Novak
Camby
Q-Rich
2014 1st
2014 2nd
2016 1st
2016 2nd
2017 2nd
That roster cannot win you a title. There's a difference between overhauling your roster so that it tops out at winning one, maybe two playoff rounds if you're lucky, and overhauling it to build a team that can win a championship. It's not the same thing. One team wound up with a Harden/Howard/Parsons core and has an excellent supporting cast and attractive trade assets. The other wound up with Anthony/Chandler/island of misfit toys plus Iman Shumpert. One team already has the ability to contend and still has roster flexibility. And the other team has no ability contend and no roster flexibility until 2015.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The point he's making is that Houston improved themselves the same way the Knicks did -- by freeing up cap space, trading draft picks and signing expensive free agents.

They are going to be paying Asik and Lin a combined 30 million dollars in 2015.

Yup...model franchise right there.
They went from not being a playoff team two offseasons ago to being possible title contenders. Yes, they are a model franchise. By the way, Asik and Lin's combined cap hit for the 2015 season is $16 million. That's why both of them, especially Asik, are still extremely attractive trade pieces.

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Old
07-17-2013, 09:11 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by RussianRangersFan View Post
Harden+Howard > Tyson+Melo imo and by a good margin.
Over the last two years Tyson's been the better defensive player and more efficient on offense. Dwight has the numbers but Tyson is CRIMINALLY underrated, just like Marc Gasol (who's a similar player.)

Harden's probably better than Melo now (largely due to age) but they're very similar players.

It's not nearly a significant enough margin for the Rockets to be legitimate title contenders and the Knicks not to be. Nowhere near enough for Houston to be a legit title contender and the Knicks not to be without Dwight shedding his injuries and becoming the player he was 3 years ago. Definitely possible, but I can't say probable- especially since Howard cried about playing with Kobe when Harden is a very similar player when it comes to "give me the ball, i'll score."


Island of misfit toys? Prigioni, K-Mart, Shump, and Artest are comparable to, if not better, than the Rockets supporting cast.

And then, you talk about how awful the Knicks contracts are...yet again fail to realize we'll have no contracts and be able to do exactly what Houston did.


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Old
07-17-2013, 11:33 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Over the last two years Tyson's been the better defensive player and more efficient on offense. Dwight has the numbers but Tyson is CRIMINALLY underrated, just like Marc Gasol (who's a similar player.)

Harden's probably better than Melo now (largely due to age) but they're very similar players.
I like Chandler a lot. But he's not in the same ballpark as what Dwight Howard can offer if he's at full strength. If not, then they're probably not title contenders either. But he's 27. If you're looking for a good risk to gamble on, then you're not going to find a better one than a 27-year-old superstar center. And people overstate how bad a year he had last season.

Harden's got more on Anthony than just age. He's a far more efficient player.

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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
It's not nearly a significant enough margin for the Rockets to be legitimate title contenders and the Knicks not to be. Nowhere near enough for Houston to be a legit title contender and the Knicks not to be without Dwight shedding his injuries and becoming the player he was 3 years ago. Definitely possible, but I can't say probable- especially since Howard cried about playing with Kobe when Harden is a very similar player when it comes to "give me the ball, i'll score."
In the worst year he has ever had, coming off back surgery, and in a completely toxic environment he was still a dominant defensive player. We'll have to see where he goes from here, but Howard's problems in LA seemed to stem from a bad fit as far as personalities, coaching, and media attention go.

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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Island of misfit toys? Prigioni, K-Mart, Shump, and Artest are comparable to, if not better, than the Rockets supporting cast.
Yes. Island of misfit toys. Look at the age of those guys other than Shumpert (who I clearly marked as the only other quality younger guy on the roster). The Knicks have no quality bigs behind Chandler who you can depend on to soak up minutes. Betting on Kenyon Martin over a full season is little better than betting on Camby and Wallace was last year. World Peace is going to be 34 to start the year. Prigioni is 36. Theoretically, they could give you some good minutes. But that's a lot of aging bodies you're hoping both stay on the court and don't lose anything from their games to time. If the Knicks truly had good depth, then their non-small ball power forward rotation would not be Bargnani and Stoudemire.

Plus, the Knicks are over the luxury tax curtain so they don't even get a full MLE to play with. That's another thing the Rockets have going that the Knicks don't. Again, roster flexibility matters. Guys like Asik and Lin either provide quality depth or they can be dealt to bring in even more depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
And then, you talk about how awful the Knicks contracts are...yet again fail to realize we'll have no contracts and be able to do exactly what Houston did.
You have both not been reading my posts and you have no understanding of how the Rockets built their team. They didn't just gut their roster for cap space. They stockpiled a ton of assets, some of which they flipped for Harden, and some of which turned into quality supporting members like Parsons and Beverly. That's how they were able make themselves an attractive landing spot for a guy like Howard.

The Knicks do not have a stockpile of assets. They'll be sitting there in 2015 with Smith, Shumpert and a whole lot of cap space. They also have to hope that the Rondo/Love/Aldridge group actually makes it to free agency and doesn't find anywhere else to go with a better setup. Having little other than cap space didn't work out so well when it came time to woo LeBron. That's the problem when you pin your hopes ENTIRELY on free agency. Which is what the Knicks seem hellbent on doing. Again.

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07-18-2013, 02:38 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
That roster cannot win you a title. There's a difference between overhauling your roster so that it tops out at winning one, maybe two playoff rounds if you're lucky, and overhauling it to build a team that can win a championship. It's not the same thing. One team wound up with a Harden/Howard/Parsons core and has an excellent supporting cast and attractive trade assets. The other wound up with Anthony/Chandler/island of misfit toys plus Iman Shumpert. One team already has the ability to contend and still has roster flexibility. And the other team has no ability contend and no roster flexibility until 2015.



They went from not being a playoff team two offseasons ago to being possible title contenders. Yes, they are a model franchise. By the way, Asik and Lin's combined cap hit for the 2015 season is $16 million. That's why both of them, especially Asik, are still extremely attractive trade pieces.
I love the "model franchise" is now a "possible title contender" part after missing the playoffs two offseasons ago.

Hmmm. Could you be talking about the Knicks? The Knicks were a playoff team two offseasons ago, and in two seasons won 54 games, won a division and lost in the 2nd round.

The "model" Rockets?

2009 -- 53-29 5th seed lost in 2nd round
2010 -- 42-40 no playoffs
2011 -- 43-39 no playoffs
2012 -- 34-32 no playoffs
2013 -- 45-37 8th seed/lost in 1st round

The Rockets have actually regressed as a franchise for four straight years, made massive changes to their payroll and roster, and all it did was give them the 8th seed and a 1st round loss in 2013.

The Knicks on the other hand went from being a 29-53 in 2010 to 54-28 in 2013. It took them two offseasons to do what Houston is still trying to do.

And what constitutes being a "possible title contender" and being a "title contender"?

Hmmmm. So you're basically saying the Knicks, who were the No. 2 seed in the east last season and improved their team this offseason are neither contenders nor "possible title contenders", but the "model" Rockets, who used trading 1st rounders and overpaid free agents to design their current roster are "possible title contenders" event though they were the 8th seed and a 1st round knockout in 2013.

Nice logic.

The Knicks will have more cap space than Houston in 2015. Knicks have 9 million commited in 2015. Houston has 40 million commited in 2015. So I don't know what you mean by "flexibility". Chandler "franchise' Parsons is a free agent the same year as Asik and Lin (who was bested by "misfit" Felton this season, and unlike Lin, actually played in the postseason LOL)

Lin's Salary flexes to 15 million in 2015. That's one of the reason's why the Knicks didn't match Houston's offer, which would have cost them 42 million in luxury tax. Asik makes 15 million after 2014-15. Lin makes 15 million.

The fact that those two players in actual salary make a combined 30 million will not make them as attractive as you think.

Are you even a Rockets fan? You spend more time talking about the Rockets, Spurs and Knicks than any other team? Who do you root for? The Heat? The Lakers?

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07-18-2013, 04:24 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
I love the "model franchise" is now a "possible title contender" part after missing the playoffs two offseasons ago.

Hmmm. Could you be talking about the Knicks? The Knicks were a playoff team two offseasons ago, and in two seasons won 54 games, won a division and lost in the 2nd round.

The "model" Rockets?

2009 -- 53-29 5th seed lost in 2nd round
2010 -- 42-40 no playoffs
2011 -- 43-39 no playoffs
2012 -- 34-32 no playoffs
2013 -- 45-37 8th seed/lost in 1st round

The Rockets have actually regressed as a franchise for four straight years, made massive changes to their payroll and roster, and all it did was give them the 8th seed and a 1st round loss in 2013.

The Knicks on the other hand went from being a 29-53 in 2010 to 54-28 in 2013. It took them two offseasons to do what Houston is still trying to do.

And what constitutes being a "possible title contender" and being a "title contender"?

Hmmmm. So you're basically saying the Knicks, who were the No. 2 seed in the east last season and improved their team this offseason are neither contenders nor "possible title contenders", but the "model" Rockets, who used trading 1st rounders and overpaid free agents to design their current roster are "possible title contenders" event though they were the 8th seed and a 1st round knockout in 2013.

Nice logic.
A team built around Harden and Howard conceivably has a chance winning a playoff series against the likes of Miami, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, the LA Clippers, etc. I don't think the Knicks could handle the Bulls if Rose regains his form, let alone the Heat. You can keep saying 54 wins until you're blue in the face. Last year's Knicks team was not winning a series against any of Miami, San Antonio, or Oklahoma City pre-Westbrook injury. A team with no shot of knocking off those teams isn't a title contender.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
The Knicks will have more cap space than Houston in 2015. Knicks have 9 million commited in 2015. Houston has 40 million commited in 2015. So I don't know what you mean by "flexibility". Chandler "franchise' Parsons is a free agent the same year as Asik and Lin (who was bested by "misfit" Felton this season, and unlike Lin, actually played in the postseason LOL)
Who cares who has more cap space in 2015? Houston doesn't need to add another max player when they already have Harden and Howard. Over the next two seasons they could realistically win a championship. Meanwhile, the Knicks have the chance to make the playoffs a few times and line Dolan's pockets and that's about it.

Between now and 2015 Houston has: 1) A better core 2) Access to the full MLE because it's not paying the luxury tax 3) Trade chips in Asik and Lin to continue to acquire talent

Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Lin's Salary flexes to 15 million in 2015. That's one of the reason's why the Knicks didn't match Houston's offer, which would have cost them 42 million in luxury tax. Asik makes 15 million after 2014-15. Lin makes 15 million.


The fact that those two players in actual salary make a combined 30 million will not make them as attractive as you think.
I'm not saying the Knicks should've kept Lin.That would've been dumb. But Houston's getting them at a reasonable cap hit for every year of their deals. From their end, they were extremely savvy pickups. Asik especially, has value regardless of the actual money owed him because he's a very good, above average starter caliber NBA center.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Are you even a Rockets fan? You spend more time talking about the Rockets, Spurs and Knicks than any other team? Who do you root for? The Heat? The Lakers?
I find your constant interest in people's fandom hilarious. It has nothing to do with objective analysis. You automatically equate someone disagreeing with a team's direction to hating that franchise. My only interest in arguing with you comes as someone who's fascinated with how roster construction works in the NBA, just as I am in the NHL and MLB.

You seem to think I have a problem with the Knicks. I don't. I have a problem with how they go about their business. They've been making the same dumb personnel moves since their championship teams broke up in the mid-70s. They pass up Dr. J when the Nets offer him. They take Michael Ray Richardson over Larry Bird. They give up a shot to pair Scottie Pippen or Reggie Miller with Ewing so they can deal for Gerald Henderson. They chase mediocre pseudo-star after mediocre pseudo-star all the way into the modern era while flushing away chance after chance to build a real contender in the process (the Curry trade stands out as particularly heinous).

This is a team that's always antsy to add the best of whatever's out there, but they always do it in the most short term manner possible. Or they fixate on a single avenue. Free agency is not the end all, be all of improving your roster. But the Knicks continually box themselves into where that's all they've got. They're too quick to flush picks on guys like Bargnani, rather than holding them for guys who are actually valuable. If some young stud hits the the trade market, they have nothing to deal for him. Shumpert is their only attractive piece and if they deal him it creates another hole to plug up.

You make me angry, not because I hate the Knicks (how could someone hate the franchise of Walt Clyde Frazier?), but because your ideas are fundamentally flawed and lacking in nuance. You keep claiming late round picks have no value, but a huge number of contenders feature them:

San Antonio: Tony Parker (28), Manu Ginobili (58), George Hill (26) gets turned into Kawhi Leonard, Tiago Splitter (28) is another contributor

Oklahoma City: Serge Ibaka (24)

Chicago: Jimmy Butler (30)

Indiana: Roy Hibbert (17), Lance Stephenson (40), plus if he's healthy Danny Granger (17)

Houston: Chandler Parsons (38), Patrick Beverly (42)

There's always talent to be had. It's just a matter of having the scouting acumen to find it. Whether you keep the talent or deal it for a bigger piece is irrelevant. The key is that the draft can provide crucial flow of talent no matter where you're picking. That's why giving up a first rounder to land Bargnani is idiotic even with 2015 in mind. Toronto was trying to dump him. It's not like there was a huge line of suitors waiting to grab him.

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07-18-2013, 06:57 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
A team built around Harden and Howard conceivably has a chance winning a playoff series against the likes of Miami, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, the LA Clippers, etc. I don't think the Knicks could handle the Bulls if Rose regains his form, let alone the Heat. You can keep saying 54 wins until you're blue in the face. Last year's Knicks team was not winning a series against any of Miami, San Antonio, or Oklahoma City pre-Westbrook injury. A team with no shot of knocking off those teams isn't a title contender.
"Conceivably"
"I don't think"
"if"

Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:
Who cares who has more cap space in 2015? Houston doesn't need to add another max player when they already have Harden and Howard. Over the next two seasons they could realistically win a championship. Meanwhile, the Knicks have the chance to make the playoffs a few times and line Dolan's pockets and that's about it.

Between now and 2015 Houston has: 1) A better core 2) Access to the full MLE because it's not paying the luxury tax 3) Trade chips in Asik and Lin to continue to acquire talent
"could realistically"

Really going out on a limb there. Another winner.

Quote:
I'm not saying the Knicks should've kept Lin.That would've been dumb. But Houston's getting them at a reasonable cap hit for every year of their deals. From their end, they were extremely savvy pickups. Asik especially, has value regardless of the actual money owed him because he's a very good, above average starter caliber NBA center.
Lin was such a savvy pickup he was benched in the 4th quarter for the better part of the 1st half of the season in favor of Brooks, and played as much in the postseason as Prigioni despite Prigioni -- a back-up -- outperforming him in every area.

So I get it -- it's "savvy" if a team like Houston grossly overpays for a two-week wonder like Lin and a back-up center like Asik, but when the Knicks replace Lin with a guy who they perviously used to trade for Melo, and save a million bucks in the process, they're "flawed".



Quote:
I find your constant interest in people's fandom hilarious. It has nothing to do with objective analysis. You automatically equate someone disagreeing with a team's direction to hating that franchise. My only interest in arguing with you comes as someone who's fascinated with how roster construction works in the NBA, just as I am in the NHL and MLB.
You know what's "fascinating"? How the Lakers, Celtics, mavs and Heat all built NBA champions via trades and free agency.

How many titles did Kobe win without Shaq? How many did he win prior to getting Gasol, Odom and Artest?

How many titles did Paul Pierce win without Allen and Garnett?

How many titles did Nowitzki win without Kidd, Chandler and Terry?

How many titles did Lebron win without Bosh and wade?

How many titles did Wade win without Shaq?


Quote:
You seem to think I have a problem with the Knicks. I don't. I have a problem with how they go about their business. They've been making the same dumb personnel moves since their championship teams broke up in the mid-70s. They pass up Dr. J when the Nets offer him. They take Michael Ray Richardson over Larry Bird. They give up a shot to pair Scottie Pippen or Reggie Miller with Ewing so they can deal for Gerald Henderson. They chase mediocre pseudo-star after mediocre pseudo-star all the way into the modern era while flushing away chance after chance to build a real contender in the process (the Curry trade stands out as particularly heinous).
This is a classic quote (paraphrased a tad) right here: "I don't have a problem with the Knicks.....except their draft history, their current roster, their previous rosters, their trades, their front office..."

Really narrowing it down with that one. I'm guessing you like the team colors and Mike Breen.

Quote:
This is a team that's always antsy to add the best of whatever's out there, but they always do it in the most short term manner possible. Or they fixate on a single avenue. Free agency is not the end all, be all of improving your roster. But the Knicks continually box themselves into where that's all they've got. They're too quick to flush picks on guys like Bargnani, rather than holding them for guys who are actually valuable. If some young stud hits the the trade market, they have nothing to deal for him. Shumpert is their only attractive piece and if they deal him it creates another hole to plug up.
Silly Knicks for not holding on to Glass Jaw Gallo, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Landry Fields, Jordan Hill and Andy Rautins. They should have kept them and stayed a 25-win team.

Quote:
You make me angry, not because I hate the Knicks (how could someone hate the franchise of Walt Clyde Frazier?), but because your ideas are fundamentally flawed and lacking in nuance. You keep claiming late round picks have no value, but a huge number of contenders feature them:
They're not "my ideas". They're Grunwald's and Woodson's "ideas", and i agree with what they have done. Since firing Dantoni, the Knicks are 72-34.

Quote:
San Antonio: Tony Parker (28), Manu Ginobili (58), George Hill (26) gets turned into Kawhi Leonard, Tiago Splitter (28) is another contributor
Annnnnnnd this guy Tim Duncan and that guy David Robinson -- two of the greatest players in NBA history at their position. Shocking they were both 1st overall picks.

Quote:
Oklahoma City: Serge Ibaka (24)
Stupid Knicks. If they didn't trade their 1st rounders, they could have ended up with Kevin Durant, Westbrook and James harden in three straight drafts. Oh, wait. I forgot. The Knicks never would have had the chance to draft them.

But I agree. OKC is a title contender because of Ibaka.

Quote:
Chicago: Jimmy Butler (30)
Stupid Knicks. Can't believe in 2011 they didn't draft an athletic perimeter defender who can shoot 3's. They could really use a guy like Butler, or even that guy Iman.....wait a minute? Hmmm.

Quote:
Indiana: Roy Hibbert (17), Lance Stephenson (40), plus if he's healthy Danny Granger (17)
Hibbert wasn't drafted by Indiana. They traded their franchise center (albeit injured)to acquire him. Stephenson was picked after Landry Fields, who became expendable because of Shumpert and grossly overpaid by Toronto.

Granger was picked 13 spots ahead of David Lee. David Lee is arguably the worst defensive power forward in the game, and was even worse at center for the Knicks. he was replaced by Tyson Chandler.

The Knicks had a combined .350 winning percentage in the 5-years of the David Lee dynasty.

Quote:
Houston: Chandler Parsons (38), Patrick Beverly (42)
Wait a minute. You just called Houston "possible contenders" earlier. Nice to see them graduate to "contenders" in the span of an hour and two HFBoards posts LOL.

Houston's an 8th seed. Don't even see how they fit into this picture. The Lakers added Howard and Nash to a division-winning 2012 team with Kobe and Gasol, and sucked all season.

You also said the Clippers and Grizzlies are title contenders, in addition to the Spurs and Thunder.

That's great. The WC has five teams before opening night who are contending. Six if you count Denver. I'm going to assume you'll count them too?

Quote:
There's always talent to be had. It's just a matter of having the scouting acumen to find it. Whether you keep the talent or deal it for a bigger piece is irrelevant. The key is that the draft can provide crucial flow of talent no matter where you're picking. That's why giving up a first rounder to land Bargnani is idiotic even with 2015 in mind. Toronto was trying to dump him. It's not like there was a huge line of suitors waiting to grab him.
More!!!!! You're on a roll, man. So let me get this straight:

According to you, It doesn't matter if you keep draft picks or trade draft picks for talent, but in the Knicks case, they aren't "possible contenders" because they keep trading draft picks for "bigger pieces" after they went about six seasons of losing miserably with the draft "talent" they kept.

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07-18-2013, 07:14 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Over the last two years Tyson's been the better defensive player and more efficient on offense. Dwight has the numbers but Tyson is CRIMINALLY underrated, just like Marc Gasol (who's a similar player.)

Harden's probably better than Melo now (largely due to age) but they're very similar players.

It's not nearly a significant enough margin for the Rockets to be legitimate title contenders and the Knicks not to be. Nowhere near enough for Houston to be a legit title contender and the Knicks not to be without Dwight shedding his injuries and becoming the player he was 3 years ago. Definitely possible, but I can't say probable- especially since Howard cried about playing with Kobe when Harden is a very similar player when it comes to "give me the ball, i'll score."


Island of misfit toys? Prigioni, K-Mart, Shump, and Artest are comparable to, if not better, than the Rockets supporting cast.

And then, you talk about how awful the Knicks contracts are...yet again fail to realize we'll have no contracts and be able to do exactly what Houston did.


I love his "probably" and "if" statements. Nothing factual of course. Nope.

I guess I didn't get the memo that Dwight Howard has zero baggage, last year didn't happen, the year before that didn't happen, his back has completely healed, he has no other injuries, is a "team-first" guy, and his presence alone automatically makes an 8th seed a title contender.

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07-18-2013, 04:37 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
"Conceivably"
"I don't think"
"if"

Thanks for clearing that up.



"could realistically"

Really going out on a limb there. Another winner.
I live in the real world. Things can always go wrong. Houston had the second best offense in basketball, but the third worst defense last year. Adding a defensive beast like Howard should make them contenders, I believe it does, but I also admit the possibility that something unexpected could happen. But they now at least have the raw talent on their roster to contend. You can't truthfully say the same thing about the Knicks.

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Lin was such a savvy pickup he was benched in the 4th quarter for the better part of the 1st half of the season in favor of Brooks, and played as much in the postseason as Prigioni despite Prigioni -- a back-up -- outperforming him in every area.

So I get it -- it's "savvy" if a team like Houston grossly overpays for a two-week wonder like Lin and a back-up center like Asik, but when the Knicks replace Lin with a guy who they perviously used to trade for Melo, and save a million bucks in the process, they're "flawed".
First off, Asik is a very good starting center. Just because they jumped to add a franchise player at his position when they had the chance (as any sane franchise would) doesn't make him any less of a player.

Picking up Asik and Lin was savvy from their end because it allowed them to add talent to their roster without creating a salary cap mess or costing them any of the talent or assets already on their roster. One franchise can let a guy go and one franchise can pick up the same guy and it can be a good gamble for both teams. In fact that's kind of the point of a poison pill contract.

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You know what's "fascinating"? How the Lakers, Celtics, mavs and Heat all built NBA champions via trades and free agency.

How many titles did Kobe win without Shaq? How many did he win prior to getting Gasol, Odom and Artest?

How many titles did Paul Pierce win without Allen and Garnett?

How many titles did Nowitzki win without Kidd, Chandler and Terry?

How many titles did Lebron win without Bosh and wade?

How many titles did Wade win without Shaq?
Gee GWOW, I had no idea that competent teams use all three methods of player acquisition. The Heat drafted Wade and kept him and drafted Butler and then dealt him for Shaq? I had no idea. It's not like I pointed all of this out at some point.

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This is a classic quote (paraphrased a tad) right here: "I don't have a problem with the Knicks.....except their draft history, their current roster, their previous rosters, their trades, their front office..."

Really narrowing it down with that one. I'm guessing you like the team colors and Mike Breen.
So now you get to be arbiter of how everyone else should enjoy sports. Good to know.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Silly Knicks for not holding on to Glass Jaw Gallo, David Lee, Wilson Chandler, Landry Fields, Jordan Hill and Andy Rautins. They should have kept them and stayed a 25-win team.
No. Silly Knicks for betting on Stoudemire's health. Silly Knicks for throwing gobs of cash at everything that moves and expecting it to fix everything. Silly Knicks for treating cap space like it something they have to immediately dispose of whether there's someone worth using it on or not.

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They're not "my ideas". They're Grunwald's and Woodson's "ideas", and i agree with what they have done. Since firing Dantoni, the Knicks are 72-34.
Yes, they've piled up a lot of wins against weak Eastern Conference teams and constructed a roster that's perpetual second round fodder or third round fodder if they get supremely lucky.

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Annnnnnnd this guy Tim Duncan and that guy David Robinson -- two of the greatest players in NBA history at their position. Shocking they were both 1st overall picks.



Stupid Knicks. If they didn't trade their 1st rounders, they could have ended up with Kevin Durant, Westbrook and James harden in three straight drafts. Oh, wait. I forgot. The Knicks never would have had the chance to draft them.

But I agree. OKC is a title contender because of Ibaka.



Stupid Knicks. Can't believe in 2011 they didn't draft an athletic perimeter defender who can shoot 3's. They could really use a guy like Butler, or even that guy Iman.....wait a minute? Hmmm.



Hibbert wasn't drafted by Indiana. They traded their franchise center (albeit injured)to acquire him. Stephenson was picked after Landry Fields, who became expendable because of Shumpert and grossly overpaid by Toronto.

Granger was picked 13 spots ahead of David Lee. David Lee is arguably the worst defensive power forward in the game, and was even worse at center for the Knicks. he was replaced by Tyson Chandler.

The Knicks had a combined .350 winning percentage in the 5-years of the David Lee dynasty.
I'm having a deja vu feeling. Something about how the Knicks' flaw is that they over-commit to free agency, not that they should over-commit to something else instead. It also had something to do with my point being you shouldn't just flush picks away on crap like Bargnani when you don't have to. And you're right: Shumpert was a good pick. It's too bad that unless Hardaway proves himself, he's the only one on the roster.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Wait a minute. You just called Houston "possible contenders" earlier. Nice to see them graduate to "contenders" in the span of an hour and two HFBoards posts LOL.

Houston's an 8th seed. Don't even see how they fit into this picture. The Lakers added Howard and Nash to a division-winning 2012 team with Kobe and Gasol, and sucked all season.

You also said the Clippers and Grizzlies are title contenders, in addition to the Spurs and Thunder.

That's great. The WC has five teams before opening night who are contending. Six if you count Denver. I'm going to assume you'll count them too?
It's almost like the Western Conference has a lot of really, really strong teams or something. It's almost like the Knicks record, which was good enough for the second seed in the East last year, would've only been good enough for the sixth seed in the West.

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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
More!!!!! You're on a roll, man. So let me get this straight:

According to you, It doesn't matter if you keep draft picks or trade draft picks for talent, but in the Knicks case, they aren't "possible contenders" because they keep trading draft picks for "bigger pieces" after they went about six seasons of losing miserably with the draft "talent" they kept.
The Knicks aren't contenders because when they miss out on the true franchise altering talent, they go ahead and flush their assets for the next best thing rather than waiting for another true franchise altering talent. That's how you wind up with over $30 million in cap space committed to Stoudemire and Bargnani.

What happens if the Rondo/Love/Aldridge group doesn't make it to free agency or they all decide to go elsewhere? Will the Knicks finally be bright enough to not get an itchy trigger finger? Or will they once again take the plunge on the next best thing? You have no idea. Franchise history doesn't point to them making the smart big picture play.

Another scenario: What happens if Rondo/Love/Aldridge/someone equally valuable hits the trade market between now and 2015? The Knicks have no way to go out and get that guy because they don't have anything to trade for him.

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07-19-2013, 05:42 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
I live in the real world. Things can always go wrong. Houston had the second best offense in basketball, but the third worst defense last year. Adding a defensive beast like Howard should make them contenders, I believe it does, but I also admit the possibility that something unexpected could happen. But they now at least have the raw talent on their roster to contend. You can't truthfully say the same thing about the Knicks.
Houston was one of the worst teams in the WC in opposing 3 point FG % and FG% from the outside. They were also dead least in the NBA in turnovers. Dead last and by a massive marive (almost a full turnover a game more than No. 29)

If you watched Houston last year and in the postseason, their interior defense wasn't the problem as much as their transition and perimeter defense was.

How an oft-injured center like Howard improves their ability to protect the ball and defend the outside and transition is something I'll believe when I see.



Quote:
First off, Asik is a very good starting center. Just because they jumped to add a franchise player at his position when they had the chance (as any sane franchise would) doesn't make him any less of a player.
Last year was his first as a starter. He signed the contract as a backup.

Quote:
Picking up Asik and Lin was savvy from their end because it allowed them to add talent to their roster without creating a salary cap mess or costing them any of the talent or assets already on their roster. One franchise can let a guy go and one franchise can pick up the same guy and it can be a good gamble for both teams. In fact that's kind of the point of a poison pill contract.
There's nothing "savvy" about paying Jeremy Lin 30 million bucks to sit on a bench lat ein games, and shoot 25% from the floor with 3 turnovers a game in the postseason.


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Gee GWOW, I had no idea that competent teams use all three methods of player acquisition. The Heat drafted Wade and kept him and drafted Butler and then dealt him for Shaq? I had no idea. It's not like I pointed all of this out at some point.
I like how you changed your stance on trading draft picks and signing free agents. So now it's OK for every other team to do it, except the Knicks. Wade was a 5th overall pick. The Heat have been nothing more than a mediocre franchise since he was drafted without Shaq and Lebron.

Quote:
So now you get to be arbiter of how everyone else should enjoy sports. Good to know.
No, I'm just calling you out as a phony. You won't admit what team you root for, but openly bash the Knicks, then you drop a Disingenuous line like "I don't have a problem with the Knicks".

Please. You pull the same crap on the baseball board with Yankee bashing. Oh what a surprise -- a disgruntled Mets fan who will never back down from a chance to bash the Yankees for spending and steroids.

Quote:
No. Silly Knicks for betting on Stoudemire's health. Silly Knicks for throwing gobs of cash at everything that moves and expecting it to fix everything. Silly Knicks for treating cap space like it something they have to immediately dispose of whether there's someone worth using it on or not.
Silly Knicks for improving their roster and becoming a good team with a core 30 or younger, which is what all their moves have done.

I like how you keep discrediting their growth from a 25-win team to a 54-win team and No. 2 seed in just three seasons. Keep exposing and discrediting yourself. The fact that you refuse to admit what team you root for makes iyou argument against the Knicks even more laughable and sad.

Yes, the Knicks have flaws. Yes, the Knicks have a short window. But to discredit the rebuilding they've done after over a decade of misery makes you look small.


Quote:
Yes, they've piled up a lot of wins against weak Eastern Conference teams and constructed a roster that's perpetual second round fodder or third round fodder if they get supremely lucky.
Another lame, typical, knee-jerk argument from the average disgruntled sports fan.

"Well...Team A doesnt deserve credit because they had a weak schedule....Even though they had their best season in 12 years, they're really not that good."

Now you're just being petty. You're schedule argument has already been discredited since they finished with a winning record against the top six teams in the NBA this season, including 5-1 against the Heat and Spurs combined.

"Third round fodder"...So teams who make the CF aren't contenders now?

Quote:
I'm having a deja vu feeling. Something about how the Knicks' flaw is that they over-commit to free agency, not that they should over-commit to something else instead. It also had something to do with my point being you shouldn't just flush picks away on crap like Bargnani when you don't have to. And you're right: Shumpert was a good pick. It's too bad that unless Hardaway proves himself, he's the only one on the roster.
Quote:
It's almost like the Western Conference has a lot of really, really strong teams or something. It's almost like the Knicks record, which was good enough for the second seed in the East last year, would've only been good enough for the sixth seed in the West.
Man, you're showing your hand again as a guy who really doesn't understand the NBA.

5th and 6th seeds dont contend. In the WC, they never contend. Go do your HW and come back to the discussion.

History is not supporting your argument. The last NBA team lower than a 4 seed to make the CF was the 1999 Knicks.

LOL....Now I'm waiting to hear you say WC teams who are 5 or 6 seeds and lose in the 1st or 2nd round are still considered "contenders".....Oh, I forgot...you changed it to "possible contenders"



Quote:
The Knicks aren't contenders because when they miss out on the true franchise altering talent, they go ahead and flush their assets for the next best thing rather than waiting for another true franchise altering talent. That's how you wind up with over $30 million in cap space committed to Stoudemire and Bargnani.
So guys who are top-3 in MVP voting and lead the NBA in scoring aren't "franchise-altering" players?

You keep shooting yourself in the foot with these absurd statements. For all his shortcomings, saying Carmelo Anthony isn't a franchise player who has made the Knicks one of the better teams in the NBA is just another example of you coming across like some sort of obsessed Knick hater. Like I said before, you do the same thing with the Yankees.

Quote:
What happens if the Rondo/Love/Aldridge group doesn't make it to free agency or they all decide to go elsewhere? Will the Knicks finally be bright enough to not get an itchy trigger finger? Or will they once again take the plunge on the next best thing? You have no idea. Franchise history doesn't point to them making the smart big picture play.
They will have cap space to do a number of things -- retain and build around their current core or revamp. It's called flexibility.

Quote:
Another scenario: What happens if Rondo/Love/Aldridge/someone equally valuable hits the trade market between now and 2015? The Knicks have no way to go out and get that guy because they don't have anything to trade for him.
Thanks, Commissioner Stern for stopping by to inform us that the Knicks are banned from the NBA trade process, and any attempts to acquire prescious late 1st and 2nd rounder from now until 2015 is strictly prohibited.


Last edited by GWOW: 07-19-2013 at 05:59 AM.
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07-19-2013, 05:57 AM
  #414
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In all seriosuness, what team do you root for? I think it's a fair question.

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07-19-2013, 06:14 AM
  #415
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I'm done with the eight pages of quote splicing with your belligerent behind. If you don't want to address my central thesis that the Knicks constantly jump the gun and target non-franchise level talents to their own detriment, then go right ahead. You can keep on willfully misinterpreting my point and thinking this Knicks team has a realistic shot at winning a title. By all means attempt to convince yourself that Bargnani is anything resembling a productive basketball player.

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No, I'm just calling you out as a phony. You won't admit what team you root for, but openly bash the Knicks, then you drop a Disingenuous line like "I don't have a problem with the Knicks".
But I don't have a problem with the Knicks. It's not my fault you can't differentiate between ownership/management and the team itself. And it's not my fault that according to you, I can't like the Knicks if I don't talk about them in the manner that Hawk Harrelson treats the White Sox.

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Please. You pull the same crap on the baseball board with Yankee bashing. Oh what a surprise -- a disgruntled Mets fan who will never back down from a chance to bash the Yankees for spending and steroids.
Hahaha. It's amazing how everything fits into one of your little boxes, facts be damned: "Someone disagrees with me. They must be Satan/an Islanders fan." I am a Mets fan. I do hate the Yankess. But I don't think I've bashed the Yankees for either spending or steroids. I'm pretty sure we've discussed two Yankee related topics: 1) The relative values of Cano and Pedroia. 2) The tact of Yankee fans or lack thereof. I believe this best sums up my case: http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_as...yankeefans.gif

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07-19-2013, 06:27 AM
  #416
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I'm done with the eight pages of quote splicing with your belligerent behind. If you don't want to address my central thesis that the Knicks constantly jump the gun and target non-franchise level talents to their own detriment, then go right ahead. You can keep on willfully misinterpreting my point and thinking this Knicks team has a realistic shot at winning a title. By all means attempt to convince yourself that Bargnani is anything resembling a productive basketball player.

But I don't have a problem with the Knicks. It's not my fault you can't differentiate between ownership/management and the team itself. And it's not my fault that according to you, I can't like the Knicks if I don't talk about them in the manner that Hawk Harrelson treats the White Sox.

Hahaha. It's amazing how everything fits into one of your little boxes, facts be damned: "Someone disagrees with me. They must be Satan/an Islanders fan." I am a Mets fan. I do hate the Yankess. But I don't think I've bashed the Yankees for either spending or steroids. I'm pretty sure we've discussed two Yankee related topics: 1) The relative values of Cano and Pedroia. 2) The tact of Yankee fans or lack thereof. I believe this best sums up my case: http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_as...yankeefans.gif
Seriously, I don't understand why you don't admit what NBA team you like. You obviously have no problem admitting you're a Mets fan.

And I don't know of one Knicks fan this entire season -- as enjoyable as it was -- wasn't critical of the team and pointed out their shortcomings.

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07-19-2013, 08:21 AM
  #417
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Seriously, I don't understand why you don't admit what NBA team you like. You obviously have no problem admitting you're a Mets fan.

And I don't know of one Knicks fan this entire season -- as enjoyable as it was -- wasn't critical of the team and pointed out their shortcomings.
Err...

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And it's not my fault that according to you, I can't like the Knicks if I don't talk about them in the manner that Hawk Harrelson treats the White Sox.
You don't see me picking fights over on the Devils' board about Lou's big plan do you? One doesn't get into arguments over the grand roster construction schemes of teams one doesn't actually like.


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07-19-2013, 11:44 AM
  #418
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Err...



You don't see me picking fights over on the Devils' board about Lou's big plan do you? One doesn't get into arguments over the grand roster construction schemes of teams one doesn't actually like.
You've said nothing positive about the Knicks after what was a very positive season.

Being disappointed they didn't make the CF or Finals and discrediting and minimizing the success of a season/philosophy -- short term or not -- are two different things.

If you want to be a self-loathing fan, then keep doing what you're doing. Most Knicks fans will just enjoy what they can for now.

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07-19-2013, 04:38 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
You've said nothing positive about the Knicks after what was a very positive season.

Being disappointed they didn't make the CF or Finals and discrediting and minimizing the success of a season/philosophy -- short term or not -- are two different things.

If you want to be a self-loathing fan, then keep doing what you're doing. Most Knicks fans will just enjoy what they can for now.
Because as fun as it was, I don't see it building toward a title. It's fool's gold unless they actually do land something like an Anthony/Aldridge/Rondo core in 2015.

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07-19-2013, 05:03 PM
  #420
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You've said nothing positive about the Knicks after what was a very positive season.

Being disappointed they didn't make the CF or Finals and discrediting and minimizing the success of a season/philosophy -- short term or not -- are two different things.

If you want to be a self-loathing fan, then keep doing what you're doing. Most Knicks fans will just enjoy what they can for now.
Look we all love the Knicks. 54 wins was very NICE but after 13 years we only have 1 playoff series win. You cant blame fans for being frustrated a little bit. The Knicks are a 45-50 win playoff team which is good but we just dont have teh personell to be bigtime contenders. See i respect fans who are loyal to teh knicks BUT also arent afraid to voive their opinions or even be critical of certain knick moves

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07-20-2013, 12:31 AM
  #421
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Originally Posted by NYRangers723 View Post
Look we all love the Knicks. 54 wins was very NICE but after 13 years we only have 1 playoff series win. You cant blame fans for being frustrated a little bit. The Knicks are a 45-50 win playoff team which is good but we just dont have teh personell to be bigtime contenders. See i respect fans who are loyal to teh knicks BUT also arent afraid to voive their opinions or even be critical of certain knick moves
What do the previous 12 years have anything to do with last year?

Woodson/Grunwald is a new regime.

What do you want them to do? Destroy the current group? For what? Draft picks?

Tank, tank, tank for another 10 years?

The funny thing is that five years ago, Knicks fans were crying for players like Stat and Melo and Chandler and really didnt care what it would cost. Like they would fall off a tree for free.

I mean, they had a 50/50 chance to land Lebron. You can't fault the Knicks for clearing cap space and getting rid of dead-weight contracts for a shot at the best player in the game.

I mean, this whole thread started because the Knicks traded away a late 1st rounder and two rejects for a guy who improved the team and an additional 4 million in cap space in 2016.

The No. 2 seed in the East is wide open. You have four teams fighting for that spot, with the Knicks being one of them. If pissed off Knicks fans want to ignore that and be pissed all season because they dont have two of thgeir next three 1st rounders, be my guest.

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08-12-2013, 07:50 AM
  #422
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Knicks signed Udrih a while back, leaving them with just one roster spot. The trio of Felton-Prigioni-Udrih is a little better than last season's trio, but I doubt Udrih vanishes down the stretch the way Kidd's old ass did a year ago.

Looking at the Knicks offseason, they replaced:

Novak
Camby
Kidd
Thomas
Wallace

with:

Artest
Bargnani
Udrih
Hardaway Jr.
Tyler/Leslie

On paper, they're a deeper, more athletic team than a year ago.

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08-12-2013, 11:56 AM
  #423
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They just need a top PG. If they can get it, they're championship caliber.


But since they're the Knicks, they won't.

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09-24-2013, 10:35 AM
  #424
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nicknames on jerseys

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...9321--nba.html

this has to be one of the dumbest things to be considered.

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09-24-2013, 10:51 AM
  #425
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Without a doubt. It's a joke. BUT, it will sell, and that's what it's all about.

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