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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2013, 11:09 AM
  #251
Habsterix*
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We decided to play hardball with one of our best players. A guy who had shown himself to be a number one blueliner before this year even began.

What factors are there here that justify us paying him 2.8 million a year? Yes, he's an RFA but the idea is to make your best players happy and build around them. We had a golden opportunity to lock him up for what he had proven himself already to be worth. Even if he just kept playing at his 2012 level 5 million per year was a bargain.

Instead we put the screws to the guy, rip him off for two seasons (and it's two seasons where we aren't contending) and then once that contract is up and we're (hopefully) in a position to actually contend, we'll then have to pay through the nose to sign him.

Please explain to me how this makes sense. Just because we had the ability to force a deal on him now doesn't mean it was the right thing to do here. Hell, 5 at 25 wouldn't have happened if he wasn't RFA. We should've taken advantage of this instead of screwing ourselves in the long run.
Well that's a totally different question. You asked how he was worth less than Gorges. I told you why.

The whole bridging contract has been discussed in length in a thread a few weeks/months ago and while both side have their strong (legitimate) arguments, you're not going to convince - and neither will I - the other side that YOUR take is better.

For what it's worth, I respect those who think that he should have been signed long term but I respectfully disagree. See, I think that PK's success was due (in part at least) to the fact that he wanted to prove management wrong. While I think that he might have had a good season, I can honestly say that I don't think that he would have had a Norris-type season had he signed his long term deal.

Personally, seeing the youngsters around the league being signed too early to long term deals and seeing their reduced production, I strongly believe that Subban tried to prove his past season that he's deserving of that big contract and he'll do the same this coming season. Lightning’s defenseman Matt Carle when from a 38-40 points guy down to 22 points last year after signing a contract which will pay him $5.5M per season until 2017-18. Ask Buffalo how they feel about Tyler Myers’ contract/performance. Do you think that the Hurricanes are a bit concerned about giving Jeff Skinner a long term deal at $5.75M per season after his last season? The fact is that it gives Bergevin more time to see what Subban is all about. By the looks of things, it looks like he was a bargain last year and will be next year as well, when the salary cap goes down. We also know that by the time Subban’s next contract hits, Andrei Markov’s contract will have expired. It’s a gamble that Bergevin was willing to take under the circumstance and I feel like it was the right decision.

See, it's a natural human fact that for many (not all), there's a sense of accomplishment and complaisance when you've reached your goal(s) in life. I truly believe that it's too high of a risk paying young players top money too soon in their career. Keep dangling the carrot as long as you can. In this case, there were serious issues that the Habs wanted Subban to work on. The fights with teammates in practice were ridiculous. To Subban's credit, he has worked hard on that, and he's improved in passing the puck sooner instead of carrying it end to end and that has contributed to his success. I bit of humility has done him some good.

The bridging contract, in my opinion, played a huge role in his motivation and there's a chance that he may not have won the Norris if it weren't for it. No, not that I think that Subban necessarily need motivation to perform, but that added motivation is what likely pushed him to perform as well as he did.

Now you (and others) might disagree and that's fine. But I will never accept that someone comes and tells me that their opinion (because that's all it is) is right and not recognizing that others' have their merit, in all due respect.

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07-17-2013, 11:09 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Did I say only GM's know what they're doing? I responded to your post where you said "making it hard on ourselves". The only person he's made it more difficult on is himself. But again, he's the GM...THAT'S HIS JOB.

You think I don't make sense....yet you want to have me believe that just because the Habs could of saved 3M per year on Subban's deal, it means they would of been better off for him.

You don't explain how that money would be spent, you don't explain on who? But that's not surprising because you can't. You have no idea how that money would be spent and how it would turn out

Perfect example is the Cole/Ryder swap...Habs fans were ecstatic at getting Cole's contract off the books, Ryder was gonna be a cheap rental for the rest of the year and the Habs were gonna have oodles of cash this summer to spend and solve all their problems

What happens?

A few weeks later MB signs Desharnais to a 4 year contract eating up almost all of the cap space that was freed up in the Cole/Ryder swap

Back to square one

Edit: Look at the summer the Habs had a ton of cap space, they went out and traded for Gomez, signed Cammy, Gionta, Gill, etc...how did that work out for them?

Cap space is great, but it doesn't guarantee a damn thing...furthermore, I asked this question earlier and not shockingly, none of you pro-capspace warriors were able to answer it. But since the lockout, how many of the Stanley Cup winner, or hell, even final 4 teams were teams that had a lot of cap space left?

I'd venture to say, and granted i'm just guessing here, but I'd say that all the recent Cup winners, and finalists, are all teams that spent up to the cap and had very little cap space. Because successful teams understand that it's not how much you spend, it WHO you spend it on. The teams that accumulate cap space are the same teams that are in the basement every year.
The thing is that with the cap space, MB could've added Lecavalier & Brière to the team very easily

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07-17-2013, 12:08 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Well that's a totally different question. You asked how he was worth less than Gorges. I told you why.

The whole bridging contract has been discussed in length in a thread a few weeks/months ago and while both side have their strong (legitimate) arguments, you're not going to convince - and neither will I - the other side that YOUR take is better.

For what it's worth, I respect those who think that he should have been signed long term but I respectfully disagree. See, I think that PK's success was due (in part at least) to the fact that he wanted to prove management wrong. While I think that he might have had a good season, I can honestly say that I don't think that he would have had a Norris-type season had he signed his long term deal.
Markov. We've seen this movie before and we'll see it again.

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Old
07-17-2013, 12:35 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Yet Subban is better defensively than pretty much all of them, which is something you forgot to mention.

Also, Subban CAN continue to progress (as he's done every year in his short career). So I don't get your point on those players.

Subban's defense is top notch (it's actually better than his offense, and has been shown in great detail many times..), his offense is top notch. He's a top notch d-man who just won a Norris, and he'll get paid as one. Especially since he has the leverage this time around, having just accepted a low contract.

If MB signs him at $6M per, we'll be damn lucky, because he's worth more than that, easily.

Also, the point about Doughty and Karlsson signing before the cap went down is interesting, since the cap is about to go back up again next year. Dare I say it's another moot point?
Agreed that PK is better defensively than most of these young d-men.
We can certainly expect PK to continue to progress.

Just trying to get a real feel for the value of Subban.
According to rumors, he was asking for 5X6M and probably hoping for 5M per year.
Seems to me that we should be able to sign him at 6-6.5M.

As for the SCap going back up again, it will most likely but a 5% increase would bring it to below 68M.
Here is a projection that bring the cap to 69M in 2016-17.
Dare I say that we could debate for a long time if the SCap will be higher than 64.3M in 2015-16 let alone in 2014-15.
Back in 2004, the players took a 24% dip in revenue.
This time, they decided to spread the SCap decrease over a longer period.

Maybe a greater proportion of the SCap will be devoted to fewer players.
Or the teams will continue to sign high cap salaries and will recover from the Escrow (17% for now!).
This will certainly be true next season because more teams are near the ceiling as ever (we now have 15 teams at 90% of Ceiling now even with compliance buyouts).
Also, only four teams are below 50M (RFA):
  • St-Louis (Pietrangelo, Paajarvi and Stewart);
  • Ottawa (Cowen, Wiercoch);
  • NYI (Ullstrom and Reinhart/Nelson/Strome (not RFA but should make the team));
  • Win (Wheeler, Bogosian).
In 2011-12, Teams paid between 49.5 and 71.4M.
In 2013-14, we could very well see teams between 52M and 64.5M.
This will bring even more parity among teams but given contracts already signed, less money will be available.

There is a new dynamic in the market that will unfold this summer.
Contracts like Crosby, Malkin, Perry, Getzlaf and Letang may be the last you will see at this % of SCap for a few years.
At the same time, lower paid RFA and FA are getting enticed in Europ and KHL.

As you said, it is moot point.

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Old
07-17-2013, 12:45 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We decided to play hardball with one of our best players? A guy who had shown himself to be a number one blueliner before this year even began? I don't see what factors allow for him making less than Gorges... and by a significant amount no less.

What factors are there here that justify us paying him 2.8 million a year? Yes, he's an RFA but the idea is to make your best players happy and build around them. We had a golden opportunity to lock him up for what he had proven himself already to be worth. Even if he just kept playing at his 2012 level 5 million per year was a bargain.

Instead we put the screws to the guy, rip him off for two seasons (and it's two seasons where we aren't contending) and then once that contract is up and we're (hopefully) in a position to actually contend, we'll then have to pay through the nose to sign him.

Please explain to me how this makes sense. Just because we had the ability to force a deal on him now doesn't mean it was the right thing to do here. Hell, 5 at 25 wouldn't have happened if he wasn't RFA. We should've taken advantage of this instead of screwing ourselves in the long run.


Number one blueliner on a 15th place team lol

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Old
07-17-2013, 01:13 PM
  #256
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Would I like to see him sign? Absolutely.

Does he have to sign? Not necessarily.

We do know they are talking though and Bergevin isn't going to wait if he thinks the best offer is on the table.

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07-17-2013, 01:18 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Would I like to see him sign? Absolutely.

Does he have to sign? Not necessarily.

We do know they are talking though and Bergevin isn't going to wait if he thinks the best offer is on the table.
Do we know they're talking? I thought the latest knews was that no contact had been made between Bergevin and PK's agent. Might have missed something more recent, however.

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07-17-2013, 01:19 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Agreed that PK is better defensively than most of these young d-men.
We can certainly expect PK to continue to progress.

Just trying to get a real feel for the value of Subban.
According to rumors, he was asking for 5X6M and probably hoping for 5M per year.
Seems to me that we should be able to sign him at 6-6.5M.

That was pre-Norris. You have to think with his amazing season under his belt he's going to command more money.

At $6.5M he'd be very good value. It would be a damn good contract, a lot like what Murray convinced Karlsson to sign. However Murray didn't play hardball with Karlsson a year before, so Karlsson could only assume Ottawa had the best intentions.

With Subban on the other hand....

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07-17-2013, 01:50 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
I don't get those who say Bergevin screwed up the with the PK bridge contract. Nothing will make me believe that the short contract did not contribute to his Norris trophy winning season.

PK had that extra motivation to prove his doubters wrong, slightly change his attitude to a team first mentality, and to be a leader. If Bergevin gave him the 5,6,7, year big money deal at the time, it would have been an insult to Patches, Price, and others who took the bridge contract and got paid later. It also sets great precedent for the Gallys as well.

Bergevin is trying to instill a team first culture and I am glad that we have a GM who has some balls to do what he thinks is right. PK is going to get paid, and Marc knows he will deserve it, plus the cap will be higher when his salary kicks in so no stressing if PK makes an extra million.
Well said.

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Old
07-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
My logic is absurd? That's your opinion...I don't need you to share it

This idea that because the Habs can save money by offering Subban 5M for the next 4 years and be able to give 5M to another player and it will all just magically work out JUST BECAUSE they have the available cap space is just a fantasy.

Just because you have cap space does not mean you will use it wisely...Personally, I would rather pay Subban a boat load of money then use money saved to spend it on a UFA that we will likely end up overpaying for, because as we all know, almost all UFA's end up being overpaid (a word I detest mind you). Subban to me is as sure of a thing as there is on the Habs, so whether he's making 5-6-7-8M, I don't give a damn. I'd rather roll the dice on Subban then some unknown player.

Again, I find it hilarious that so many lose sleep over Subban's next contract as though him making even 8M a year is going to cripple the Habs, while all the Cup contenders are paying all their key players huge salaries.

I swear, it's like a HFBoard thing to have players on the most affordable deals possible so you can go on the board and gloat about how other teams overpaid for their players and how the player you cheer for is on a great deal.

In the end...none of that matters
I have read some of your other posts, you seem to be coming around on the idea of saving money is good. You are very right to argue how the saved money will be spent... but this conversation is not about that, it's only about having a player on a contract that helps the team succeed.

It's not only HFBoards that is obsessed with saving money in a business environment, a good business model should utilize this strategy for their success.

For me, what really make me upset is that MB didn't want to take the risk on Subban. After watching him play, I knew that he would be a Norris candidate sooner rather than later. The deal I wanted to offer him, as I posted it again, was for a long term deal (6 years) with a cap hit of 5.75, where he gets an average of 7 million for the last 3 years. I see Subban as a star player, like Crosby, Toews, Kane, etc. (not saying he is as good as them, but notice the contract they received after their ELC). Also we have to say that Crosby is on a major discount in Pittsburgh, he is arguably the best player in the NHL, which to some respect means he should be paid league max. Thank god he isn't greedy, this way he can keep salaries some what in check. (I know his salary is 12 million, but the 8.7 cap hit is what is important)

What I find is important is that GMs have the ability to make moves. Yes you are right in thinking that no matter what any player is paid, a GM can make anything work by tinkering here and there. But the way I see it is a GM that has players at a discount (average salary for a #1 defensemen is higher than what Subban makes), your options are more open to bring in a veteran body, or sign a coveted UFA.

I apologize if you were taken aback but my opinion. You always seem very logical in your approach, but on this topic, I just couldn't see it.

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07-17-2013, 02:27 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
I don't get those who say Bergevin screwed up the with the PK bridge contract. Nothing will make me believe that the short contract did not contribute to his Norris trophy winning season.

PK had that extra motivation to prove his doubters wrong, slightly change his attitude to a team first mentality, and to be a leader. If Bergevin gave him the 5,6,7, year big money deal at the time, it would have been an insult to Patches, Price, and others who took the bridge contract and got paid later. It also sets great precedent for the Gallys as well.

Bergevin is trying to instill a team first culture and I am glad that we have a GM who has some balls to do what he thinks is right. PK is going to get paid, and Marc knows he will deserve it, plus the cap will be higher when his salary kicks in so no stressing if PK makes an extra million.
It's like you watched another Subban dress for the Canadiens than I did.

The Subban I have watched play is a winner and he leaves everything he has on the ice. He had an attitude problem at a young age, but how many young charismatic professional athletes do you know that don't have a chip on their shoulder? That being said, he grew up a lot and quickly. He showed what he could do as a #1 defensemen in a year that saw the Habs finish last in the east. Only he and Gorges finished the year with a positive +/- on D.

Subban deserved more than the contract he go from MB. I looked at his stats and compared them with defensemen that scored similar stats (goals, points, TOI, etc), he deserved at least 4 million a year. I don't think he was holding out because he wanted more, I think he held out because he wanted what he deserved. Don't confuse the two.

Also the fact that he signed because he didn't want to miss anymore hockey... more proof that your point of view is flawed. He wanted to play, he wanted to win. He put the money issue on the side to get back on the ice. You say it was to prove what he is worth, well he was sure as hell worth more than the 2 million dollars he was paid last year. (less even because it wasn't a full season)

Team first mentality? What about a team believe in their star player? Enough with your blasphemy with comparison to Price and Pacioretty. They got bridge contracts because they were far, very far from what Subban proved.

Max Pacioretty signed his bridge contract in 2011. That season he came up and was playing great hockey. He got hit by Chara and that was the end of his season. But how do you sign him long term based on the 49 points in 123 games. If anything Max wouldn't sign a long term deal at that point, because he would get something like 5 years - 11 million. A point in 2 out of every 5 games isn't impressive.

Now Price. Seriously? He signed his bridge contract in 2010. Who was the Habs number goalie in the 2010 playoffs? That's right, not Carey Price. Yes the Habs traded Halak that year, but just because Price is the future of the franchise, he hadn't done enough to warrant a big contract, he was just the backup...

So please enough with your poor reasoning, talking about a team first mentality, because Price and Pacioretty have nothing to do with how Subban was treated. NOTHING

Now if you want to talk about the Gallys, well if they can prove that they are a top end talent, I say sign them long term also.

Subban showed up out of no where and shut down Crosby in the playoffs. How many rookie D man can gloat that they were able to get arguably the best player in the world off his game? How many 21 years old defensemen lead their team in goals by a defensemen? How many 22 year olds finish top 5 in total points on a team while still posting a positive +/- on a team that is the worst in their conference?

Subban at 23 years old was leaps and bounds ahead of both Price and Pacioretty at that age, to ignore the facts is just irresponsible on your part.

Funny how in January I was saying sign him long term, he will be our first Norris winner since Chelios in the late 80s and in the first year he does it.

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07-17-2013, 02:52 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Well that's a totally different question. You asked how he was worth less than Gorges. I told you why.
Actually, you didn't. You said he was an RFA and then mentioned "other factors."

I'd love to hear why you'd think Gorges is actually worth more cash than PK is.
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
The whole bridging contract has been discussed in length in a thread a few weeks/months ago and while both side have their strong (legitimate) arguments, you're not going to convince - and neither will I - the other side that YOUR take is better.
Even now?

Even now seeing that he's won a Norris you can't come back here and say "Gee guys, you know what? You were right. That wasn't a good move and I guess we should've signed him."

You still think it was the right move know what you know now?
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
For what it's worth, I respect those who think that he should have been signed long term but I respectfully disagree. See, I think that PK's success was due (in part at least) to the fact that he wanted to prove management wrong. While I think that he might have had a good season, I can honestly say that I don't think that he would have had a Norris-type season had he signed his long term deal.
Okay, guess that answers my question above. I don't see how that makes any sense but you're entitled to your opinion on that.

Even if that were the case though and he just stayed the same... he was STILL easily worth 5 million just based on how he'd already played. So even aside from the Norris season I still don't see how he wasn't worth that cash.

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Personally, seeing the youngsters around the league being signed too early to long term deals and seeing their reduced production, I strongly believe that Subban tried to prove his past season that he's deserving of that big contract and he'll do the same this coming season. Lightning’s defenseman Matt Carle when from a 38-40 points guy down to 22 points last year after signing a contract which will pay him $5.5M per season until 2017-18. Ask Buffalo how they feel about Tyler Myers’ contract/performance. Do you think that the Hurricanes are a bit concerned about giving Jeff Skinner a long term deal at $5.75M per season after his last season? The fact is that it gives Bergevin more time to see what Subban is all about. By the looks of things, it looks like he was a bargain last year and will be next year as well, when the salary cap goes down. We also know that by the time Subban’s next contract hits, Andrei Markov’s contract will have expired. It’s a gamble that Bergevin was willing to take under the circumstance and I feel like it was the right decision.
Nobody is suggesting he get a monster deal though. 25 mil over 5 seasons isn't the same thing as 56 million over 7. 5 mil per was very fair for both sides. It guaranteed PK some bigger dollars in the short term and we have the upside of getting a good deal if he continued to develop.

Even if he stayed at the same level, 5 mil would be a great deal for both sides.

And what we wound up doing was putting the screws to him and paying far less than what he was worth. Paying him 2.8 last year was absolutely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
See, it's a natural human fact that for many (not all), there's a sense of accomplishment and complaisance when you've reached your goal(s) in life. I truly believe that it's too high of a risk paying young players top money too soon in their career. Keep dangling the carrot as long as you can. In this case, there were serious issues that the Habs wanted Subban to work on. The fights with teammates in practice were ridiculous. To Subban's credit, he has worked hard on that, and he's improved in passing the puck sooner instead of carrying it end to end and that has contributed to his success. I bit of humility has done him some good.

The bridging contract, in my opinion, played a huge role in his motivation and there's a chance that he may not have won the Norris if it weren't for it. No, not that I think that Subban necessarily need motivation to perform, but that added motivation is what likely pushed him to perform as well as he did.

Now you (and others) might disagree and that's fine. But I will never accept that someone comes and tells me that their opinion (because that's all it is) is right and not recognizing that others' have their merit, in all due respect.
Let's say I accept this argument though (which I don't.) Even then, there's no way to justify a 2.8 million dollar deal for this guy. Is the idea to piss him off so he'll play better? Seriously man, we were lucky this didn't go the other way and he didn't demand a trade.

You can sit there and say "everyone has a right to their opinion" all you want, but some opinions aren't backed up well by the facts. And the fact is that for his performance, PK was playing at the level of a 5-6 million dollar blueliner. The fact is that 2.8 is far below what a player of his skill level is making in the NHL. RFA or not, when a guy plays the way he did it doesn't make sense to force him to sit out and take a crappy deal. And there's just absolutely no way that this guy is worth 1.5 million less than Josh Gorges is.
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Originally Posted by Gally11 View Post
Number one blueliner on a 15th place team lol
He played like a legit number one. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.


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07-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gally11 View Post
Number one blueliner on a 15th place team lol
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He played like a legit number one. If you don't understand this, I can't help you.
Come on LG, it's pretty clear that it was all Subban's fault that the team was 15th... It's not like with a better team they would finish first in their division and he would go on to win a Norris trophy or anything...

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07-17-2013, 03:50 PM
  #264
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What limited budget?

Also, what you do with the extra cash cannot be part of a whole other debate if you keep saying that it's so important
The cap limit is the limited budget. Any time you can save a bit of extra room in order to give yourself more wiggle room for options, it's a PLUS. Can you stop arguing against that now? I mean really dude. Having cap space only gives you more flexibility. There is no denying that.

What your GM does with that extra cash is a whole other debate because it depends on who's available, where you are in the building phase, and how competent your GM is.

If you have a competent GM, you can find other ways of creating cap space, yes I know that. Not the point. Point is, having the same team with an extra bit of room is a bonus. It's not the be all end all of things, but it is a bonus. Simple, clear, and factual.

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07-17-2013, 03:52 PM
  #265
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Good post LG.

That's one thing the ''supporters'' (if we can call them that) of the bridge deal always leave out. The bridge deal wasn't something PK accepted, nor was it fair value. Nobody, unless they seriously know fak-all, can argue PK was only worth 5.75 on 2years. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Not only that, but to actually force this kid out when he clearly was right to question management's assessment of his value, is also nuts.

If PK actually wanted this deal, then I could turn face. But he didn't, and to force it on him was just dumb. As you said, we're lucky it didn't go too sour.
I don't see how anybody can support this move.

And the theory that it actually helped PK develop is garbage. That is questioning PK's character saying he wouldn't have battled as hard had he signed a more lucrative deal. If PK didn't battle as hard as he does during practices, if he gave up on playing after his team got eliminated and kept sucking, if his work ethics weren't irreproachable, then I could see why one would make this point. But PK is not like that. The kid never stops playing. You can just look at his draft interview about what he wants to bring to Mtl to see this kid is for damn real and his character shouldn't be put in question like this.
Also, if people want to speculate that way, then we can also speculate that there would have been vocal doubters about PK's deal had he signed a big one, and he would have wanted to shut them up.
This theory is a cop out imo.

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07-17-2013, 04:04 PM
  #266
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Good post LG.

That's one thing the ''supporters'' (if we can call them that) of the bridge deal always leave out. The bridge deal wasn't something PK accepted, nor was it fair value. Nobody, unless they seriously know fak-all, can argue PK was only worth 5.75 on 2years. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Not only that, but to actually force this kid out when he clearly was right to question management's assessment of his value, is also nuts.

If PK actually wanted this deal, then I could turn face. But he didn't, and to force it on him was just dumb. As you said, we're lucky it didn't go too sour.
I don't see how anybody can support this move.

And the theory that it actually helped PK develop is garbage. That is questioning PK's character saying he wouldn't have battled as hard had he signed a more lucrative deal. If PK didn't battle as hard as he does during practices, if he gave up on playing after his team got eliminated and kept sucking, if his work ethics weren't irreproachable, then I could see why one would make this point. But PK is not like that. The kid never stops playing. You can just look at his draft interview about what he wants to bring to Mtl to see this kid is for damn real and his character shouldn't be put in question like this.
Also, if people want to speculate that way, then we can also speculate that there would have been vocal doubters about PK's deal had he signed a big one, and he would have wanted to shut them up.
This theory is a cop out imo.
Anyone who defends the bridge deal really has no leg to stand on, but they keep on trucking. I remember when he signed, you, LG and I were all saying (I'm sure others chimed in as well) that this will come back to bite us, yet you had so many saying how it will help us land a big name UFA like Perry. Well now we have signed no significant UFAs and next year, we will have less space to do so with Subban receiving a new contract.

I also remember, and people still try and make the point about Max and Carey... Subban a Norris winner at 23, what were Carey and Max doing at 23? One was finally breaking out of his shell (which to me does not mean he proved himself) and the other just watched the team reach the eastern finals mostly from the bench.

I like MB, and I will support him. But I will also criticize him when I think he made a mistake. I like the direction he is going in, in terms of players, but I don't think he has a good grasp on signing players to contracts. (The DD contract just bewilders me, not like anyone was going to offer sheet him) Also the Cube contract, but its easier to swallow on a 1 year deal.

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07-17-2013, 04:05 PM
  #267
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The argument that the bridge contract 'made' Subban a better player is impossible to prove, and pretty much baseless.

He has progressed every year in his hockey career. Even after his Norris all he could think about was winning a cup. Winning the best d-man in the league award is not enough for him, he wants more.

He's always motivated. He's the epitome of motivation.

Getting lowballed during contract talks isn't exactly what I would call positive motivation. If anything, it was unfounded skepticism.

Before his Norris year, Subban showed that his defensive game was top notch, and we all knew the offensive potential was there.

He's only 23, so his progression (in terms of an elite talent) is fairly predictable.

And besides, you don't hear this "getting lowballed made him better" narrative for any other player, why Subban? He was already a great person outside of hockey (endless charity work), he was already well spoken and known to say the word "team" over and over whenever someone asked him about his individual accomplishments.

I find the claims that the contract talks made him a better player to be completely full of crap, if I am being honest.

It's grasping at straws, at best.

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07-17-2013, 04:19 PM
  #268
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So what you're saying is that no GM can be blamed for any deals that they sign ever because there are always so many other chips at play.
Sure can't get anything past you...that's exactly what I was trying to say

SMH

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07-17-2013, 04:30 PM
  #269
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I have read some of your other posts, you seem to be coming around on the idea of saving money is good. You are very right to argue how the saved money will be spent... but this conversation is not about that, it's only about having a player on a contract that helps the team succeed.

It's not only HFBoards that is obsessed with saving money in a business environment, a good business model should utilize this strategy for their success.

For me, what really make me upset is that MB didn't want to take the risk on Subban. After watching him play, I knew that he would be a Norris candidate sooner rather than later. The deal I wanted to offer him, as I posted it again, was for a long term deal (6 years) with a cap hit of 5.75, where he gets an average of 7 million for the last 3 years. I see Subban as a star player, like Crosby, Toews, Kane, etc. (not saying he is as good as them, but notice the contract they received after their ELC). Also we have to say that Crosby is on a major discount in Pittsburgh, he is arguably the best player in the NHL, which to some respect means he should be paid league max. Thank god he isn't greedy, this way he can keep salaries some what in check. (I know his salary is 12 million, but the 8.7 cap hit is what is important)

What I find is important is that GMs have the ability to make moves. Yes you are right in thinking that no matter what any player is paid, a GM can make anything work by tinkering here and there. But the way I see it is a GM that has players at a discount (average salary for a #1 defensemen is higher than what Subban makes), your options are more open to bring in a veteran body, or sign a coveted UFA.

I apologize if you were taken aback but my opinion. You always seem very logical in your approach, but on this topic, I just couldn't see it.
The irony here is that a few people have said it's so important to have a Norris caliber trophy Dman making less then market value...well isn't that what happened this year? and most likely again the coming year? Which is most important with the cap coming down

Following that though, yes...the Habs will have to pay him. But so what? He will have earned it, and there will be more then enough money (especially with the cap rising at that point, not to mention other contracts coming off the books) to cover his raise

every year there's money coming off the books and money being put on the books...that's the easy part of running a team.

Finding the right players to make it all fit...now that's the real challenge

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07-17-2013, 04:32 PM
  #270
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Start the negotiations ASAP. His agent is a shark he'll be going for MB's balls. The quicker he is locked up long term the better off we'll be.

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07-17-2013, 04:34 PM
  #271
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I just heard on the radio that the Habs started to talk with Subban's agent about a new contract.

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07-17-2013, 04:37 PM
  #272
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The irony here is that a few people have said it's so important to have a Norris caliber trophy Dman making less then market value...well isn't that what happened this year? and most likely again the coming year? Which is most important with the cap coming down

Following that though, yes...the Habs will have to pay him. But so what? He will have earned it, and there will be more then enough money (especially with the cap rising at that point, not to mention other contracts coming off the books) to cover his raise

every year there's money coming off the books and money being put on the books...that's the easy part of running a team.

Finding the right players to make it all fit...now that's the real challenge
Nobody said it was important, people said it's a bonus, and if you look at the successful teams, most of them have players signed to longer deals at a very fair price. Heck, even the teams you mentioned, Pens, Chicago, Boston and LA have some of those players.

But as for PK, it wasn't this year or the next, unless you think we were/are contenders. What would help was to have PK signed at a cheap deal 2-3 years down the road, when our team will hopefully contend.

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07-17-2013, 04:39 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Good post LG.

That's one thing the ''supporters'' (if we can call them that) of the bridge deal always leave out. The bridge deal wasn't something PK accepted, nor was it fair value. Nobody, unless they seriously know fak-all, can argue PK was only worth 5.75 on 2years. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Not only that, but to actually force this kid out when he clearly was right to question management's assessment of his value, is also nuts.

If PK actually wanted this deal, then I could turn face. But he didn't, and to force it on him was just dumb. As you said, we're lucky it didn't go too sour.
I don't see how anybody can support this move.

And the theory that it actually helped PK develop is garbage. That is questioning PK's character saying he wouldn't have battled as hard had he signed a more lucrative deal. If PK didn't battle as hard as he does during practices, if he gave up on playing after his team got eliminated and kept sucking, if his work ethics weren't irreproachable, then I could see why one would make this point. But PK is not like that. The kid never stops playing. You can just look at his draft interview about what he wants to bring to Mtl to see this kid is for damn real and his character shouldn't be put in question like this.
Also, if people want to speculate that way, then we can also speculate that there would have been vocal doubters about PK's deal had he signed a big one, and he would have wanted to shut them up.
This theory is a cop out imo.
worse, there was people in here saying that going from a 30/40 pts defender to a close to PPG defender who also progressed defensively within a single season is just a normal learning curve or something...

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07-17-2013, 04:40 PM
  #274
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The cap limit is the limited budget. Any time you can save a bit of extra room in order to give yourself more wiggle room for options, it's a PLUS. Can you stop arguing against that now? I mean really dude. Having cap space only gives you more flexibility. There is no denying that.

What your GM does with that extra cash is a whole other debate because it depends on who's available, where you are in the building phase, and how competent your GM is.

If you have a competent GM, you can find other ways of creating cap space, yes I know that. Not the point. Point is, having the same team with an extra bit of room is a bonus. It's not the be all end all of things, but it is a bonus. Simple, clear, and factual.
Oh agreed with that...and that's why deals like the team has with Pacioretty are designed for, having guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Eller on cheap deals also helps.

But you can't do that with EVERYONE...it's simply impossible. It's ironic that you say a GM has to do everything possible to give himself some wiggle room, yet that's EXACTLY what MB did by having PK on a very affordable deal for the next 1+ yet somehow you're not ok with that?

So which is it?

It's going to happen, you're going to overpay for players...but there's always ways to offset that. PK is going to cost a lot of money after next year. But there are other players on the roster who will offset that lost.

Yet you keep your sole focus on the 3M difference Subban will have...talk about tunnel vision

Also...I don't know why you keep trying to tell me to 'stop arguing'. I'm entitled to my opinion, I don't have to agree with you

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07-17-2013, 04:45 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The irony here is that a few people have said it's so important to have a Norris caliber trophy Dman making less then market value...well isn't that what happened this year? and most likely again the coming year? Which is most important with the cap coming down

Following that though, yes...the Habs will have to pay him. But so what? He will have earned it, and there will be more then enough money (especially with the cap rising at that point, not to mention other contracts coming off the books) to cover his raise

every year there's money coming off the books and money being put on the books...that's the easy part of running a team.

Finding the right players to make it all fit...now that's the real challenge
I have a habit of thinking long term. Sure he is making less money this year, but next year he will be making a lot more. The fact that MB had the opportunity to make a deal that would help him, and he didn't is what we are all arguing. Look at the contract Duncan Keith has. He is a potential Norris winner every year, he is great defensively, has 2 Stanley Cup rings, etc. He makes 5.5 Million a year. For a team to have a #1 defensemen making so little, helps you bring in other players long-term. Subban could of been on a similar contract.

I get what you are saying, but because it has such a short life (the 2 year deal only gives you one off season of maneuvering space), you end up being handcuffed in the future. If Subban is signed long term last year, than in the future, he will be making 7 Million + but with a cap hit of only 5.75, let's say.

I get the feeling you have a hard time seeing this as a long term investment. Having star players at less than market value is the way best way to try and build a championship team.

Again the player needs to prove that he is worth a long term deal at such a young age. This is not the contract you give to every player that shows promise. Subban has progressed every year and has played at a high level. The way the Habs low balled him, well i am worried it will hurt the team in the long run. But at the same time, I think Subban is a winner and he can put his pride to the side and take a contract that will help the Habs be competitive. I hope.

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