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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #276
25get
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MB is probably using the salary structure of the Hawks as an inspiration.

I think this is a good model to follow.

Best case, we sign Subban at 6-6.5 and keep him for many years.
Worst case, we can always trade him.

Two years ago, SCap was about the same as it is now (and probably next year), Keith signed for 5.5M.

Subban for 7M or Keith for 5.5M?

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07-17-2013, 03:48 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But you can't do that with EVERYONE...it's simply impossible. It's ironic that you say a GM has to do everything possible to give himself some wiggle room, yet that's EXACTLY what MB did by having PK on a very affordable deal for the next 1+ yet somehow you're not ok with that?
Of course you can't do it with EVERYONE. But the point is we could have done it with PK! Jesus..is it really that hard to understand?? I think you might need to take a step back.

I don't really care to have PK affordable over 1 1/2 season when we're not expected to compete all that much. Heck, some people thought we'd finish in the bottom of the league again last year. Most see us as a mediocre team still.
I would have much preferred to have PK signed over a longer term at a reasonable price so it gives us more time.

Sure you're allowed to have an opinion, doesn't make it smart. On this PK subject, you're way way off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
worse, there was people in here saying that going from a 30/40 pts defender to a close to PPG defender who also progressed defensively within a single season is just a normal learning curve or something...
Nobody ever said that. Some said they wouldn't be surprised, and others said if you followed PK, you know his learning curve is anything but normal, meaning he makes these huge leaps in progression.

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Old
07-17-2013, 03:50 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Nobody ever said that. Some said they wouldn't be surprised, and others said if you followed PK, you know his learning curve is anything but normal, meaning he makes these huge leaps in progression.


look back into your own post history...

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Old
07-17-2013, 03:51 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Nobody ever said that. Some said they wouldn't be surprised, and others said if you followed PK, you know his learning curve is anything but normal, meaning he makes these huge leaps in progression.
I do recall what ECW is saying. PK is not normal and has his own learning curve.

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07-17-2013, 03:53 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24get View Post
MB is probably using the salary structure of the Hawks as an inspiration.

I think this is a good model to follow.

Best case, we sign Subban at 6-6.5 and keep him for many years.
Worst case, we can always trade him.

Two years ago, SCap was about the same as it is now (and probably next year), Keith signed for 5.5M.

Subban for 7M or Keith for 5.5M?
Pretty sure the blackhawks gave toews and kane 6mil+ after their elc's.

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Old
07-17-2013, 03:54 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I do recall what ECW is saying. PK is not normal and has his own learning curve.


and then we read posts as to how Sens fans are annoying with their Karlsson talks.

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07-17-2013, 03:54 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Good post LG.

That's one thing the ''supporters'' (if we can call them that) of the bridge deal always leave out. The bridge deal wasn't something PK accepted, nor was it fair value. Nobody, unless they seriously know fak-all, can argue PK was only worth 5.75 on 2years. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Not only that, but to actually force this kid out when he clearly was right to question management's assessment of his value, is also nuts.

If PK actually wanted this deal, then I could turn face. But he didn't, and to force it on him was just dumb. As you said, we're lucky it didn't go too sour.
I don't see how anybody can support this move.

And the theory that it actually helped PK develop is garbage. That is questioning PK's character saying he wouldn't have battled as hard had he signed a more lucrative deal. If PK didn't battle as hard as he does during practices, if he gave up on playing after his team got eliminated and kept sucking, if his work ethics weren't irreproachable, then I could see why one would make this point. But PK is not like that. The kid never stops playing. You can just look at his draft interview about what he wants to bring to Mtl to see this kid is for damn real and his character shouldn't be put in question like this.
Also, if people want to speculate that way, then we can also speculate that there would have been vocal doubters about PK's deal had he signed a big one, and he would have wanted to shut them up.
This theory is a cop out imo.
Keith got 1.475M for four years at 23.
On the third year of his contract, he did 69 points.

The same year, Campbell started a contract at 7,142M.

So Campbell at 7.142M or Keith at 5.5M?

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07-17-2013, 03:55 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Pretty sure the blackhawks gave toews and kane 6mil+ after their elc's.
They did:

Patrick Kane

Jonathan Toews

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07-17-2013, 03:55 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The irony here is that a few people have said it's so important to have a Norris caliber trophy Dman making less then market value...well isn't that what happened this year? and most likely again the coming year? Which is most important with the cap coming down

Following that though, yes...the Habs will have to pay him. But so what? He will have earned it, and there will be more then enough money (especially with the cap rising at that point, not to mention other contracts coming off the books) to cover his raise

every year there's money coming off the books and money being put on the books...that's the easy part of running a team.

Finding the right players to make it all fit...now that's the real challenge
People eat blood sausage. People are idiots.

What you say makes sense, the key is to find these special players and retain them, and build on that while you have the player on your team. Is Chara's salary being discussed? Doubt it. Has his salary been an impediment to a cup? Nope.

The ones who think a player should get a good screw job would probably also like player salaries to be secret.

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07-17-2013, 03:57 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post


and then we read posts as to how Sens fans are annoying with their Karlsson talks.
I don't understand. PK Subban is like every other NHL player ever? Every NHL player has followed the same exact learning curve starting at age 8, and at 9 they progressed by X% and at age y, the learning curve became exponential. Is their an NHL graph for progression that every player ever has followed?

I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

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07-17-2013, 04:10 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I have a habit of thinking long term. Sure he is making less money this year, but next year he will be making a lot more. The fact that MB had the opportunity to make a deal that would help him, and he didn't is what we are all arguing. Look at the contract Duncan Keith has. He is a potential Norris winner every year, he is great defensively, has 2 Stanley Cup rings, etc. He makes 5.5 Million a year. For a team to have a #1 defensemen making so little, helps you bring in other players long-term. Subban could of been on a similar contract.

I get what you are saying, but because it has such a short life (the 2 year deal only gives you one off season of maneuvering space), you end up being handcuffed in the future. If Subban is signed long term last year, than in the future, he will be making 7 Million + but with a cap hit of only 5.75, let's say.

I get the feeling you have a hard time seeing this as a long term investment. Having star players at less than market value is the way best way to try and build a championship team.

Again the player needs to prove that he is worth a long term deal at such a young age. This is not the contract you give to every player that shows promise. Subban has progressed every year and has played at a high level. The way the Habs low balled him, well i am worried it will hurt the team in the long run. But at the same time, I think Subban is a winner and he can put his pride to the side and take a contract that will help the Habs be competitive. I hope.
What is this thought that Subban will be insulted? He'll be making MORE money as soon as next year????

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07-17-2013, 04:15 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
What is this thought that Subban will be insulted? He'll be making MORE money as soon as next year????
Well if someone plays hard ball with me when they hold all the cards, they should expect to be hardballed when I hold all the cards. Insulted may not be the right word, but I'm sure it's not something you just forget.

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07-17-2013, 04:19 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Of course you can't do it with EVERYONE. But the point is we could have done it with PK! Jesus..is it really that hard to understand?? I think you might need to take a step back.

I don't really care to have PK affordable over 1 1/2 season when we're not expected to compete all that much. Heck, some people thought we'd finish in the bottom of the league again last year. Most see us as a mediocre team still.
I would have much preferred to have PK signed over a longer term at a reasonable price so it gives us more time.

Sure you're allowed to have an opinion, doesn't make it smart. On this PK subject, you're way way off.
Doesn't make it smart? Lol ok...cause I have different opinion, it's not a smart opinion?

Good Lord...

Look...how about you keep losing sleep over PK's next deal, i'll just keep enjoying watching him play with the Habs and won't give a damn about how much money he makes.

It's one thing to debate a topic, it's a whole other to be basically called an idiot because you disagree

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07-17-2013, 04:21 PM
  #289
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He doesn't have to.
But I hope he does.

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07-17-2013, 04:23 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Well if someone plays hard ball with me when they hold all the cards, they should expect to be hardballed when I hold all the cards. Insulted may not be the right word, but I'm sure it's not something you just forget.
I'd like to think that PK's not as emotional as fans, negotiations are not personal...it's business

And when he eventually signs his new deal...all of that will be long forgotten

I'm gonna laugh my *** off if PK ends up signing a deal like EK's...all this belly-aching (not referring to you specifically) over 1M per year lol

I wish they went back to the days where salaries were not disclosed...all these closet capologists would have nothing to do

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07-17-2013, 04:33 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I don't understand. PK Subban is like every other NHL player ever? Every NHL player has followed the same exact learning curve starting at age 8, and at 9 they progressed by X% and at age y, the learning curve became exponential. Is their an NHL graph for progression that every player ever has followed?

I really don't understand what you are trying to say.
It's so simple actually...

pro athletes are "special" athletes, among the best at what they do...

one of those athletes went from a 38 pts defenseman to a 60+ pts defenseman, that while getting better defensively...

and yet we read geniuses claming it's "normal" is if it was expected from an athlete to be "special" among the "special", like if getting better, even if only slightly, in pretty much aspect of his "special" game... is normal. (these Einstein will make sure you get that it is soooo obvious, anyone should have seen it coming)


And to add to that normality, there's even people in here who talk about the kid and think he'll keep progressing more, and more, and more, and more...

and I havent yet talking about the real specials who would want our GM to kiss Subban's ass and beg for his forgiveness.


there goes your Karlsson talks, they're annoying cause they think their kid is some sort of gods ? most arent any better when it comes to Subban.

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07-17-2013, 04:33 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Oh agreed with that...and that's why deals like the team has with Pacioretty are designed for, having guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Eller on cheap deals also helps.

But you can't do that with EVERYONE...it's simply impossible. It's ironic that you say a GM has to do everything possible to give himself some wiggle room, yet that's EXACTLY what MB did by having PK on a very affordable deal for the next 1+ yet somehow you're not ok with that?

So which is it?

It's going to happen, you're going to overpay for players...but there's always ways to offset that. PK is going to cost a lot of money after next year. But there are other players on the roster who will offset that lost.

Yet you keep your sole focus on the 3M difference Subban will have...talk about tunnel vision

Also...I don't know why you keep trying to tell me to 'stop arguing'. I'm entitled to my opinion, I don't have to agree with you
Oh yeah true but when it was time to make moves at the trade deadline, he didn't flinch. So why did he make the cap room ? And on top of that he signed Desharnais to a stupid contract. He could've had Lecavalier and Briere right now. The guy just lack vision.

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07-17-2013, 04:40 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
Oh yeah true but when it was time to make moves at the trade deadline, he didn't flinch. So why did he make the cap room ? And on top of that he signed Desharnais to a stupid contract. He could've had Lecavalier and Briere right now. The guy just lack vision.
but adding Lecavalier when we have Plekanec still signed for a few more years, Eller coming along nicely and Galchenuyk who's capable of playing on our top 9 already and shown he'll be great... THAT is vision right ?

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07-17-2013, 04:41 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
Oh yeah true but when it was time to make moves at the trade deadline, he didn't flinch. So why did he make the cap room ? And on top of that he signed Desharnais to a stupid contract. He could've had Lecavalier and Briere right now. The guy just lack vision.
What? Lecavalier said he was not coming here and that the issue was not money or term.

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07-17-2013, 04:42 PM
  #295
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I was against the 2 year bridge contract as soon as it was rumored. I was probably among the minority of wanting to give him 8 years right away (at a low cap hit), I believed in him. After it was signed the positive I took from it was that we could potentially lock him up for the equivalent of 10 years in a matter of months: 2 years contract in January and 8 year extension in July. But winning the Norris definitely raised his value over the last 6 months.

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07-17-2013, 04:44 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
but adding Lecavalier when we have Plekanec still signed for a few more years, Eller coming along nicely and Galchenuyk who's capable of playing on our top 9 already and shown he'll be great... THAT is vision right ?
I remember this team having Koivu-Turgeon-Damphousse at one point. We all know what happened after.

And we all saw what the team did offensively when Eller got injured in the playoffs.

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07-17-2013, 04:46 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by Lozela View Post
I remember this team having Koivu-Turgeon-Damphousse at one point. We all know what happened after.

And we all saw what the team did offensively when Eller got injured in the playoffs.
you expect our GM to trade our best C's ?

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07-17-2013, 04:48 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you expect our GM to trade our best C's ?
And what is the problem in having Lecavalier - Eller - Plekanec as your top 3 C ?

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07-17-2013, 04:52 PM
  #299
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I'm just baffled at how easy it was for Bergevin to give that extension to Desharnais while having all the leverage in the world and how he's playing hardball with our MVP.

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07-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #300
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And what is the problem in having Lecavalier - Eller - Plekanec as your top 3 C ?
where do you play Galchenuyk ?

oh yeah, winger on the 3rd line, cause YOU have vision

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