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Old
07-17-2013, 03:20 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
Exactly, yet people won't give up a 1st for him lol.

I think they have cap problems, and we can really hand cuff them. I believe the deadline for qualifying offers is this Saturday? Maybe I'm wrong. I say Feaster at least try. Maybe slather is playing hardball, and will be forced to pay out. Or they take the compensation.
Because the first is likely a top 3 pick.

No one in their right mind would give up Reinhart/Mackinnon/Yakupov/RNH/Hall/Tavares for Stepan.

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07-17-2013, 03:25 PM
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I love Stepan, he's a fantastic player. We are better off to make them an offer, he won't be leaving the Rangers though. They would match any offer him and move out other pieces before losing him. He's their best player.
i know you do

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07-17-2013, 03:33 PM
  #28
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No offer sheets!!! We are NOT 1 player away from contention. We are just starting a rebuild. I hated the ROR offer sheet and I'll hate any other offer sheets too. Lets keep our next 2 or 3 1st rounders. I'll take a shot at Reinhart/Ekblad or McDavid over ANY offer sheet we could make. Our early stage rebuild begins to fail immediately if we give any of these assets away. I know that typically established commodities are worth far more than prospects but when we're talking about multiple top 3 picks for ROR or Stepan, or whomever....no way!!! Keep the picks and do this right.

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07-17-2013, 03:40 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlames View Post
No offer sheets!!! We are NOT 1 player away from contention. We are just starting a rebuild. I hated the ROR offer sheet and I'll hate any other offer sheets too. Lets keep our next 2 or 3 1st rounders. I'll take a shot at Reinhart/Ekblad or McDavid over ANY offer sheet we could make. Our early stage rebuild begins to fail immediately if we give any of these assets away. I know that typically established commodities are worth far more than prospects but when we're talking about multiple top 3 picks for ROR or Stepan, or whomever....no way!!! Keep the picks and do this right.
We aren't. We're talking no more than one top 3 pick, and quite possibly fewer even than that.

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07-17-2013, 03:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by LetsGoFlames View Post
No offer sheets!!! We are NOT 1 player away from contention. We are just starting a rebuild. I hated the ROR offer sheet and I'll hate any other offer sheets too. Lets keep our next 2 or 3 1st rounders. I'll take a shot at Reinhart/Ekblad or McDavid over ANY offer sheet we could make. Our early stage rebuild begins to fail immediately if we give any of these assets away. I know that typically established commodities are worth far more than prospects but when we're talking about multiple top 3 picks for ROR or Stepan, or whomever....no way!!! Keep the picks and do this right.
ROR would have cost a 1st and 3rd. I'm not even saying offering Stepan ROR dollars. Enough to make it difficult for Sather to match given current cap problems, but low enough it only costs a 1st.

I also don't see us finishing with a very high percentage of 1st overall.

I think the Flames will surprise a lot of people. But I seem to be a minority compared to this site. Everyone hates edmontons rebuild, but theirs is exactly what everyone is hoping for, Multiple 1st overalls.

I just don't see us following that route. At least I hope not.

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07-17-2013, 03:57 PM
  #31
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Stepan is a great young player. He'd give us a chance to win every night...though most nights we'd still fall short. Winning a couple extra games at the end of last year when it didn't matter was all the difference between us picking top 3 or 6th....I love Monahan as a prospect but can't help but wonder how much happier I'd be if MacKinnon or Barkov was our top Center prospect moving forward. Keep the picks and stay rich.

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07-17-2013, 03:57 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
ROR would have cost a 1st and 3rd. I'm not even saying offering Stepan ROR dollars. Enough to make it difficult for Sather to match given current cap problems, but low enough it only costs a 1st.

I also don't see us finishing with a very high percentage of 1st overall.

I think the Flames will surprise a lot of people. But I seem to be a minority compared to this site. Everyone hates edmontons rebuild, but theirs is exactly what everyone is hoping for, Multiple 1st overalls.

I just don't see us following that route. At least I hope not.
I agree with a lot of these sentiments. I don't believe that the Flames went into this off-season intending to stand pat and allow our team to spend next year in the basement, but so far, I don't know if enough has been done to keep us really out of the basement. I do believe we have the ability to be competitive, though, if other teams around us struggle. When you look at Edmonton, during their really bad years, they were putting the team on the shoulders of a combination of new superstar rookies, kids from the previous failed rebuild and disinterested veterans. I firmly believe that our players are significantly better than that example this year. Cammalleri, Hudler and Glencross, for example, are better players than what Edmonton was dealing with in those years, and we have quite a bit of character to lead the way. TJ Brodie is just about better than any d-man the Oilers have had since Pronger, and he isn't even our consensus better d-man.

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07-17-2013, 04:29 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
ROR would have cost a 1st and 3rd. I'm not even saying offering Stepan ROR dollars. Enough to make it difficult for Sather to match given current cap problems, but low enough it only costs a 1st.

I also don't see us finishing with a very high percentage of 1st overall.

I think the Flames will surprise a lot of people. But I seem to be a minority compared to this site. Everyone hates edmontons rebuild, but theirs is exactly what everyone is hoping for, Multiple 1st overalls.

I just don't see us following that route. At least I hope not.
Few, if any fans are legitimately hoping for multiple first round picks. What these fans are doing however, is expecting the team to be quite bad next season, and probably the year after as well. It's entirely possible to hope for one thing but expect something.

Even if you believe the Flames are playoff contenders next season, and think adding Stepan would push them into a playoff berth, would his addition make the team a cup contender? Is there enough depth in the system that adding Stepan could make them legitimate threats for the cup within the next few seasons? The answer to that is no. Which makes the move shortsighted and wholly pointless; the Flames hopefully aren't looking to repeat the last decade or so where the only goal was to squeak into the playoffs and hope for a miracle. Instead, they should be looking to build a perennial cup contender in the same vein as Chicago, LA Boston, etc.

It's silly to make moves based on hopes, rather than expectations. Everyone hopes that the Flames do well next season if it happens on the backs of the prospects/younger players. Realistically however, the Flames are probably looking at a top five pick. And I'd much rather the organization take their chances with that than chase after Stepan.

And realistically speaking, the Rangers would likely match anything below 7M.

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07-17-2013, 04:56 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
We aren't. We're talking no more than one top 3 pick, and quite possibly fewer even than that.
Who cares, ROR and Stepan are NOT worth a top 3 pick, they are not worth a top 5 IMO.

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07-17-2013, 05:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
Who cares, ROR and Stepan are NOT worth a top 3 pick, they are not worth a top 5 IMO.
I think this is the important part, the IMO. To answer your question, it's the people whose opinion differs from yours on this point that care. I'm not sure if I'm one of them. On the one hand, Stepan is everything that you could really hope for, say, a 5-7th overall pick to turn out to be. On top of that, he has removed any question of living up to his potential. On the other hand, he might be slightly less than what you'd hope for from a 1st or 2nd overall pick, and the fact that he is older is both a good and a bad thing. He's ready to be a difference-maker, but he also is closer to UFA years than a newly drafted player, and our window of opportunity would be slightly shorter with him. I could see justification for either argument, but realistically, we would only be able to evaluate the decision after knowing our draft position for next year.

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07-17-2013, 05:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by BVicious View Post
ROR would have cost a 1st and 3rd. I'm not even saying offering Stepan ROR dollars. Enough to make it difficult for Sather to match given current cap problems, but low enough it only costs a 1st.

I also don't see us finishing with a very high percentage of 1st overall.

I think the Flames will surprise a lot of people. But I seem to be a minority compared to this site. Everyone hates edmontons rebuild, but theirs is exactly what everyone is hoping for, Multiple 1st overalls.

I just don't see us following that route. At least I hope not.
How exactly do you see us finishing in the top 20 even? We have the worst goaltending in the league, our D is woeful and missing 2 top 2 defenders. Our forward corps are going to be full of rookies and 2nd/3rd liners. Give me 5 rosters who you think are worse than ours.

Its not a fact of wanting to finish last, its inevitable, we have a terrible team and are fully rebuilding. Going after Stepan or ROR is a fools errand and will just see the rebuild take longer.

Edmonton failed because they have terrible management. If Feaster makes the right decisions we should be good again in 3(ish) years.

I understand you dont want a rebuild, or that you think we will be good, but you really need to face the facts.

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07-17-2013, 05:07 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
How exactly do you see us finishing in the top 20 even? We have the worst goaltending in the league, our D is woeful and missing 2 top 2 defenders. Our forward corps are going to be full of rookies and 2nd/3rd liners. Give me 5 rosters who you think are worse than ours.
Unknown = bad?

Viktor Fasth was bad last year, eh?

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07-17-2013, 05:07 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
I think this is the important part, the IMO. To answer your question, it's the people whose opinion differs from yours on this point that care. I'm not sure if I'm one of them. On the one hand, Stepan is everything that you could really hope for, say, a 5-7th overall pick to turn out to be. On top of that, he has removed any question of living up to his potential. On the other hand, he might be slightly less than what you'd hope for from a 1st or 2nd overall pick, and the fact that he is older is both a good and a bad thing. He's ready to be a difference-maker, but he also is closer to UFA years than a newly drafted player, and our window of opportunity would be slightly shorter with him. I could see justification for either argument, but realistically, we would only be able to evaluate the decision after knowing our draft position for next year.
Stepan is no longer on his ELC anymore, he is going to be paid handsomely. If you want to win a cup, you need to do it when your young players are on their bridge contracts, or on their ELC contracts. Boston doesnt win with Seguin making 6M, Chicago doesnt win with Kane and Toews off their ELC contracts.

Its not NHL13 when you can just say "Screw the cap", its an intregal part of the team. Getting your young players to take discounts and playing them on their ELC's is the way to go. Not overpaying for Stepan because Sather cant afford him.

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07-17-2013, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wflames View Post
Unknown = bad?

Viktor Fasth was bad last year, eh?
Unknown = unknown. I dont think many teams want to go into their NHL season thinking "well our goaltending could be **** or good this year, i guess we will see" Its not a promising future, especially when Ramo hasnt played in the NHL in a few years and Berra/JoeyMac are uncertain in an 82 game schedule.

We saw how awesome Cerevenka was for us last year doesnt inspire confidence.

Hoping that Ramo or Berra turn into Fasth is a fools errand. Im not saying it wont happen, but its more likely than not that neither will be as good.

Not to mention our defense is going to be WORSE this year than it was last year (butler in our top 4... oh my).

We saw how badly the Oilers got lit up a few years ago, prepare for that.

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07-17-2013, 05:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
Unknown = unknown. I dont think many teams want to go into their NHL season thinking "well our goaltending could be **** or good this year, i guess we will see" Its not a promising future, especially when Ramo hasnt played in the NHL in a few years and Berra/JoeyMac are uncertain in an 82 game schedule.
I just don't understand how "worst goaltending in the league" really makes sense when you readily accept that it is an unknown. We could possibly have the worst goaltending in the league. Or, quite possibly, our goalies will be solid and confident given their relative maturity.

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We saw how awesome Cerevenka was for us last year doesnt inspire confidence.

Hoping that Ramo or Berra turn into Fasth is a fools errand. Im not saying it wont happen, but its more likely than not that neither will be as good.
That's exactly what you said, which was why I objected.

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Not to mention our defense is going to be WORSE this year than it was last year (butler in our top 4... oh my).

We saw how badly the Oilers got lit up a few years ago, prepare for that.
It could be worse, but I would also point out that Giordano had a very poor season by his standards, and the lack of training camp appeared to leave us with a lack of defensive structure in our own end. I'm no expert, but it's possible that training camp settles some of these issues down. We also should hopefully have four centres playing centre right from the start this year. A lot of defensive issues last year stemmed not from the defence, but from the fact that we had wingers playing the centre ice position (poorly).

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07-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TylerSVT View Post
Stepan is no longer on his ELC anymore, he is going to be paid handsomely. If you want to win a cup, you need to do it when your young players are on their bridge contracts, or on their ELC contracts. Boston doesnt win with Seguin making 6M, Chicago doesnt win with Kane and Toews off their ELC contracts.

Its not NHL13 when you can just say "Screw the cap", its an intregal part of the team. Getting your young players to take discounts and playing them on their ELC's is the way to go. Not overpaying for Stepan because Sather cant afford him.
I agree with the overall idea, but Kane and Toews did just win a cup while each carried a 6.3M cap hit.

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07-17-2013, 06:09 PM
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Let's please not be playing around with our picks for the next couple seasons please.

They'll be some gooders.

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07-17-2013, 06:10 PM
  #43
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Let's please not be playing around with our picks for the next couple seasons please.

They'll be some gooders.
I have to say, if we're going to win, I really like the idea of doing it on the strength of our own drafted players.

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07-17-2013, 06:21 PM
  #44
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I have to say, if we're going to win, I really like the idea of doing it on the strength of our own drafted players.
Recent history has shown us drafting the core then bringing in the additional elements (whether that be role players or another dynamic player) is the way to go.

To think Calgary can win out with their current core is silly, even with the addition of Stepan. Still need one more big time forward and defensive prospect to put it together... Or hope one of the guys we just drafted or have in the system breaks out on D.

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07-17-2013, 06:42 PM
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I think offer sheeting a team with about 5 million in cap space is stupid (I know Cap geek says less but they have them at 13 forwards and 8 defensemen now so 1 defenseman gets dropped and 1 forward when Stepan signs.

Meaning we would have to give up 1st + 2nd + 3rd and there is no way I do that with the uncertainty of this season.

We should be looking at teams that are cap strapped and players that will only cost us a 2nd ($1,682,194 to $3,364,391)

The best player would be Nyquist at 3.3 million as Detroit only has a maximum of 2.8 in space even if they bury some larger contracts.

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07-17-2013, 07:49 PM
  #46
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Chicago doesnt win with Kane and Toews off their ELC contracts.
I could have sworn they just did.....

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07-17-2013, 07:54 PM
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maybe a better example is crosby malkin. with their monster contracts that take up a quarter of their cap space.

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07-17-2013, 08:00 PM
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I think offer sheeting a team with about 5 million in cap space is stupid (I know Cap geek says less but they have them at 13 forwards and 8 defensemen now so 1 defenseman gets dropped and 1 forward when Stepan signs.

Meaning we would have to give up 1st + 2nd + 3rd and there is no way I do that with the uncertainty of this season.

We should be looking at teams that are cap strapped and players that will only cost us a 2nd ($1,682,194 to $3,364,391)

The best player would be Nyquist at 3.3 million as Detroit only has a maximum of 2.8 in space even if they bury some larger contracts.
This is exactly the point. Rangers can and will match. If not, obviously somebody paid more than he's worth, in more ways than one.

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07-17-2013, 08:13 PM
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Most fans seem to fade away from receiving players that are already proven while drafting unproven players. Why, I will never know. However, I will admit that I find drafting players the more "sexy" thing to do than trading for good young players.

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07-17-2013, 09:11 PM
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Most fans seem to fade away from receiving players that are already proven while drafting unproven players. Why, I will never know. However, I will admit that I find drafting players the more "sexy" thing to do than trading for good young players.
Right. I get that. And I too some what agree the feeling of drafting, developing and grooming an NHL player is great. Buuuuut Calgary doesn't have that track record.

I understand everyone wants to believe that this team is the worst in the NHL and will FOR SURE draft in the top 3. I for one cannot believe that. This team on paper is all you have to go with. Calgary has iced great teams on paper and not made the playoffs. I too would love to draft high every year yet still be competitive. But you can't. It's one or the other.

The idea of this thread, as I posted Larry brooks article, is that they have roughly 4 million in cap space to sign Zucerello an Stepan. Stepan isn't close. You offer him 4.5, maybe they match, maybe they can't. There is no harm. Just means Sather is put in an awkward position. If they can't do it because of cap constraints, then we lose a 1-16th pick, and pick up a 23 year old player who has scored 40+ in his first 3 yrs in the NHL, who IMO has not reached his potential.

Did I mention he is a center too? This is everything you want a 1-16th pick to turn into. Except he has developed, has playoff experience and played top line minutes.

It's great everyone has different opinions, as this is a discussion board. But saying you don't give offer sheets/picks for 23 year old centers who plays top line minutes and has consistent point totals is just ludicrous. I can only hope Monohan comes close to this level after 3 years pro.

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