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Teams that play a lot of rookies tend to lose a lot of games

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Old
07-17-2013, 04:49 PM
  #51
Illinihockey
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Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Why? Only because you say that Saad, Shaw, Kruger, Leddy can't improve from last year? That Ben Smith can't score 3 goals in 48 regular season games as was the case with Michael Frolik this past season?
I already said, because rookies tend not to contribute much. Frolik may have been the best penalty killer in the NHL last year. And I'm not sure how anyone can argue with what Stalberg contributed to that third line during the regular season. Stalberg just got a $12 mil contract, do you think that was because he was bad? Do you think any of those rookies are going to have the season that would garner them that kind of contract if they were UFA's after next year?

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07-17-2013, 04:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by JayzinSmith View Post
1999-00 New Jersey Devils

Scott Gomez, 20
John Madden, 26
Brian Rafalski, 26
Colin White, 22
That team is certainly the exception rather than the rule.

Gomez turned into a first line center for some time.
Madden was one of the games elite third line pivots for a number of years.
Rafalski was a top pairing guy.
White was a solid stay at home #4 guy.

Not saying we can't win with a bunch of question marks in depth roles, but that list is filled with guys who had long lasting NHL careers that came from the organization that only Detroit can rival in drafting success.

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07-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #53
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There's only 1 significant open spot in the line up, #2C. If we try 3 or 4 guys there over the course of the season it will be great to watch.

If a rookie wins it I'm happy. If Handzus or Shaw win it I'm happy.

Your team just won the Cup, be happy.

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07-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
You could ask for them to be an elite penalty killer like Frolik was, or even a very good penalty killer like Bolland was.
Frolik an elite penalty killer? Time to kill that myth:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati..._s&f2=4v5&f4=C LW RW&f5=CHI&f7=10-&f8=0.75-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+6 7

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07-17-2013, 04:56 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Frolik an elite penalty killer? Time to kill that myth:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati..._s&f2=4v5&f4=C LW RW&f5=CHI&f7=10-&f8=0.75-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+6 7
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Without giving your link a glance I will tell you that Frolik was certainly one of the best PK options in the league last year.

It's really a stance that can't be defended if you watched him last year.

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07-17-2013, 04:58 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
And this is my point. I saw someone post that next years roster may be even better than last years. I hope people really don't expect this team to repeat what they did last year.
Why can't they be better? They're bringing back the exact same defense and essentially the same goaltending and there's certainly potential that they could be better offensively.

Is it realistic to expect them to be better? Probably not.. but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility and like Disgruntled said, they'll should be a top-5 team regardless.

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07-17-2013, 04:59 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
And this is my point. I saw someone post that next years roster may be even better than last years. I hope people really don't expect this team to repeat what they did last year.



Do I expect them to start undefeated in 20+ games ?? No

Do I expect them to win the Cup?? Why the hell not.:

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07-17-2013, 05:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
I already said, because rookies tend not to contribute much. Frolik may have been the best penalty killer in the NHL last year. And I'm not sure how anyone can argue with what Stalberg contributed to that third line during the regular season. Stalberg just got a $12 mil contract, do you think that was because he was bad? Do you think any of those rookies are going to have the season that would garner them that kind of contract if they were UFA's after next year?
You can't use what a player got as a UFA as a way of proving how valuable they were/are. Dave Clarkson just got 5.25M from the Leafs, is he about as good as Patrick Sharp?

At the end of the day, I'm certainly not saying Stalberg was bad, but time after time he continued to not be able to find a way to be consistently effective in the playoffs, despite teams that supposedly favoured his speed. Completely ignoring his goal-scoring and points drop-off, he had no where near as many memorable shifts.. and that's a guy that's supposedly going to be hard to replace, or some would argue, irreplaceable? I don't get it.

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07-17-2013, 05:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Frolik an elite penalty killer? Time to kill that myth:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati..._s&f2=4v5&f4=C LW RW&f5=CHI&f7=10-&f8=0.75-&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+6 7
Good to know Brandon Pirri was the best penalty killer on the Hawks and the 22nd best penalty killer in hockey by that stat.

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07-17-2013, 05:06 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by HockeySensible View Post
You can't use what a player got as a UFA as a way of proving how valuable they were/are. Dave Clarkson just got 5.25M from the Leafs, is he about as good as Patrick Sharp?

At the end of the day, I'm certainly not saying Stalberg was bad, but time after time he continued to not be able to find a way to be consistently effective in the playoffs, despite teams that supposedly favoured his speed. Completely ignoring his goal-scoring and points drop-off, he had no where near as many memorable shifts.. and that's a guy that's supposedly going to be hard to replace, or some would argue, irreplaceable? I don't get it.
This reminds me of how people rationalized all of the players we lost after 2010, people thought we'd keep on chugging. I mean, Andrew Ladd only had 6 points in the playoffs that year, how hard could he be to replace? Obviously the step back isn't going to be the same as after 2010, but to think you can just plug in rookies into spots held by vets, even in depth roles, is silly.

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07-17-2013, 05:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
I already said, because rookies tend not to contribute much. Frolik may have been the best penalty killer in the NHL last year. And I'm not sure how anyone can argue with what Stalberg contributed to that third line during the regular season. Stalberg just got a $12 mil contract, do you think that was because he was bad? Do you think any of those rookies are going to have the season that would garner them that kind of contract if they were UFA's after next year?
What's so great about Stalberg? Stalberg averaged the least amount of ice time of any Chicago Blackhawks forward during the 2013 NHL Playoffs that played 18 or more games.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

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07-17-2013, 05:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Good to know Brandon Pirri was the best penalty killer on the Hawks and the 22nd best penalty killer in hockey by that stat.
Brandon Pirri was not even listed on that query. This only proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

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07-17-2013, 05:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Good to know Brandon Pirri was the best penalty killer on the Hawks and the 22nd best penalty killer in hockey by that stat.
Didn't look at Larmer's link until you - a poster I respect - quoted it, but statistics have a supplementary role in hockey. It's not baseball.

As I said earlier... there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Frolik was a great PK'ing weapon last year. His departure will be felt.

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Old
07-17-2013, 05:12 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Brandon Pirri was not even listed on that query. This only proves you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
He sure was, but hey, I'm not gonna go and say you don't know what you are talking about...

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Old
07-17-2013, 05:12 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
What's so great about Stalberg? Stalberg averaged the least amount of ice time of any Chicago Blackhawks forward during the 2013 NHL Playoffs that played 18 or more games.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary
Because the season doesn't start in May. Stalberg fell out of favor with Q, but to base his value on 19 games is stupid. Like I said, in 2010 Andrew Ladd scored 6 points in 19 games and was down to playing 12 minutes a game. Now people talk about him in reverent tones usually reserved for the great playoff performers in Blackhawks history. That year Buff only had 34 points, how hard could it be to replace him? Versteeg topped out at a mere 44 points that year. How hard could it be to replace him? Well the answer was pretty hard, at least at first.

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07-17-2013, 05:19 PM
  #66
SLarmer28
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
This reminds me of how people rationalized all of the players we lost after 2010, people thought we'd keep on chugging. I mean, Andrew Ladd only had 6 points in the playoffs that year, how hard could he be to replace? Obviously the step back isn't going to be the same as after 2010, but to think you can just plug in rookies into spots held by vets, even in depth roles, is silly.
The following former Chicago Blackhawks were all replaced:

Byfuglien
Ladd
Versteeg
Brouwer
Kopecky
Madden
Burish
Fraser
Campbell
Sopel
Niemi

Did I miss something or did the Chicago Blackhawks not win the Stanley Cup in 2013?

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07-17-2013, 05:21 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
He sure was, but hey, I'm not gonna go and say you don't know what you are talking about...
Brandon Pirri or Brandon Saad? Two different players altogether.

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07-17-2013, 05:22 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
The following former Chicago Blackhawks were all replaced:

Byfuglien
Ladd
Versteeg
Brouwer
Kopecky
Madden
Burish
Fraser
Campbell
Sopel
Niemi

Did I miss something or did the Chicago Blackhawks not win the Stanley Cup in 2013?
Were they all replaced in one offseason? I don't agree with Illini's assertion, but arguing against his point and strawmanning his argument are two entirely different things.

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07-17-2013, 05:22 PM
  #69
Illinihockey
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Originally Posted by slarmer28 View Post
brandon pirri or brandon saad? Two different players altogether.
brandonpirri

chi

c

37

1

0.02

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07-17-2013, 05:22 PM
  #70
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More or less unrelated and has no bearing on my feelings towards last season's roster or this current one, but I'll always maintain personally that Ladd was the one I missed most and continue to miss most from that team. Didn't like losing most of those guys but for me he'll always be that one that got away, and that's no slam on management or anyone, strictly a fan missing a player.

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07-17-2013, 05:24 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
Because the season doesn't start in May. Stalberg fell out of favor with Q, but to base his value on 19 games is stupid. Like I said, in 2010 Andrew Ladd scored 6 points in 19 games and was down to playing 12 minutes a game. Now people talk about him in reverent tones usually reserved for the great playoff performers in Blackhawks history. That year Buff only had 34 points, how hard could it be to replace him? Versteeg topped out at a mere 44 points that year. How hard could it be to replace him? Well the answer was pretty hard, at least at first.
They were all replaced and the Chicago Blackhawks have not experienced a roster turnover anything like which occurred subsequent to the 2009-10 NHL Season.

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07-17-2013, 05:25 PM
  #72
HockeySensible
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
This reminds me of how people rationalized all of the players we lost after 2010, people thought we'd keep on chugging. I mean, Andrew Ladd only had 6 points in the playoffs that year, how hard could he be to replace? Obviously the step back isn't going to be the same as after 2010, but to think you can just plug in rookies into spots held by vets, even in depth roles, is silly.
Ugh, please don't tell me you're comparing Stalberg and Ladd. they could not be more different. Stalberg was and has become so overrated. He wouldn't even be in the NHL if he didn't have the wheels he does, and now we're comparing him to a guy who - even in Chicago - was a great all-round player?

I would hope that the only people that thought there'd be little drop-off were bandwagoners that couldn't name more than 4 Hawks before they won the Cup. The Hawks weren't going to replace Buff, Ladd and Versteeg with Bickell, Skille and Stalberg..

IMO there's a pretty good chance Pirri/LeBlanc will be better than Bolland/Handzus were as the 2nd line centre, and IMO, there's a very strong chance Jeremy Morin's as (or more) impactful than Stalberg was. Personally, I don't care about the veteran tag. Stalberg doesn't have as many tools as Morin, therefore, I think Morin will be just as impactful - at least - despite being a rookie.

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07-17-2013, 05:25 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Brandon Pirri or Brandon Saad? Two different players altogether.
They sure are. Pirri was listed at 22 on the list you generated to discredit Frolik.

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Old
07-17-2013, 05:26 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
The following former Chicago Blackhawks were all replaced:

Byfuglien
Ladd
Versteeg
Brouwer
Kopecky
Madden
Burish
Fraser
Campbell
Sopel
Niemi

Did I miss something or did the Chicago Blackhawks not win the Stanley Cup in 2013?
Those guys were replaced but it took 2 seasons of playing a lot of kids and losing a lot of games. This past year we played 1 rookie.

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07-17-2013, 05:27 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
More or less unrelated and has no bearing on my feelings towards last season's roster or this current one, but I'll always maintain personally that Ladd was the one I missed most and continue to miss most from that team. Didn't like losing most of those guys but for me he'll always be that one that got away, and that's no slam on management or anyone, strictly a fan missing a player.
Couldn't agree more. Ladd was everything this team needed and then some. He's what Bickell has the ability to be. I said it the moment he was traded. Guys like Ladd aren't easily replaced and Winnipeg is lucky to have him.

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