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Patrick Kane vs John Tavares vs Jonathan Toews vs Taylor Hall

View Poll Results: Who would you want for your team?
Patrick Kane 39 12.30%
John Tavares 162 51.10%
Jonathan Toews 87 27.44%
Taylor Hall 29 9.15%
Voters: 317. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2013, 04:17 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Marina View Post
I think this past season was a pretty good indicator of why most people, myself included, consider Kane a better offensive player than Toews. While it's true that they play on the same team and used to play on the same line, last season the first line was pretty consistently Saad-Toews-Hossa, where Toews put up a respectable amount of points playing with pretty good players. It was a great line, all three of them worked perfectly together, Toews was on pace for a career high, etc.

Then you had the second line, which was more or less a revolving door all season with the only consistency being Kane on RW. He was able to put up more points, playing with worse players (with the exception of Sharp, who spent half the season injured) and was more or less the only reason the second line (and powerplay) saw any production at all. If you look at a breakdown of who he scored goals/assists with last season, he was all over the place, it didn't really matter who he was with. And he significantly outscored all of his linemates, the only person who came close was Sharp, who had 20 points in 28 games to Kane's 55 in 47.

I suppose watching a game and seeing who creates more scoring chances can be subjective but I don't see how Kane didn't demonstrate last year that he's a better offensive player. Which imo isn't really a slight to Toews, whose offensive production usually gets overlooked. And yes I know their career statistics are fairly similar so there's no need to remind me of that. Kane has demonstrated more potential and more raw ability (and more points) than Toews when it comes to offense, it'd be difficult to argue against that.

Edit: Also I did vote for Kane but that's mostly because he was losing to Hall at the time and it irrationally annoyed me. I guess it'd depend on the team but I'd probably pick Toews.
If Kane got better scoring chances wouldn't his line not be on average outshot when he's on the ice? Or at least score way more goals? Toews creates more shots, and as every study has shown, more shots=more quality chances. In 70 games this season, Kane had 74 points and Toews had 62. So pretty much two more points every ten games, and Toews is barely allowed to handle the puck on the PP anymore because no one else can stand in front of the net. Not to mention the season before Toews was like 4th in the league in goals and Kane barely outscored him in 20 more games. IDK why everyone subjectively thinks Toews isn't good offensively when he produces as well or better than everyone but the game's elite scorers

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07-17-2013, 04:20 PM
  #177
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thats a pretty big thing to ignore. Your response was all-star voting??? yeah uh Ovi was on the 1st/2nd all-star team for different positions. huge joke. so i wouldn't use all-star voting as a valid argument.
Who do you think votes for the Hart?

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07-17-2013, 04:25 PM
  #178
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Tavares.

Best sniper
Best work ethic (trains insanely hard in the summer, doesn't party much, etc.,)
Very high hockey IQ
Incredible vision
Clutch player

He'll be the first to score 50 goals, and once Islanders get a few better scorers on the team (like Strome), he'll unanimously be the best player of the bunch.

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07-17-2013, 04:27 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by here come the View Post
If Kane got better scoring chances wouldn't his line not be on average outshot when he's on the ice? Or at least score way more goals? Toews creates more shots, and as every study has shown, more shots=more quality chances. In 70 games this season, Kane had 74 points and Toews had 62. So pretty much two more points every ten games, and Toews is barely allowed to handle the puck on the PP anymore because no one else can stand in front of the net. Not to mention the season before Toews was like 4th in the league in goals and Kane barely outscored him in 20 more games. IDK why everyone subjectively thinks Toews isn't good offensively when he produces as well or better than everyone but the game's elite scorers
He's not "outshot on average" when his line is on the ice, did you not watch Dave Bolland this year? Dude was horrible during the regular season and all the advanced stats in the world will back that up, he was the only liability on that line by a large margin. He didn't sit out and then return to fourth line duty for no reason. That line was stuck in it's own zone even with Sharp out there many times.

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07-17-2013, 04:33 PM
  #180
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How the heck does Hall have a single vote?

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07-17-2013, 05:03 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by HawksFanTim View Post
How the heck does Hall have a single vote?
Because people recognize that he is a hell of a talent, and is performing as well as Tavares' first three years (even outperformed him this year), yet Tavares is running away with this poll.

As far as I am concerned it is Toews all the way, but if Tavares can have a commanding lead in this poll, then by all means Hall should have votes.

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07-17-2013, 05:18 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
Tavares.

Best sniper
Best work ethic (trains insanely hard in the summer, doesn't party much, etc.,)
Very high hockey IQ
Incredible vision
Clutch player

He'll be the first to score 50 goals, and once Islanders get a few better scorers on the team (like Strome), he'll unanimously be the best player of the bunch.
That's unfounded, no matter who you say that about.

I think Tavares is the best goal-scorer, but I don't think he's the best sniper. I think Kane has a better shot than him, as does Toews IMO. Kane's clearly the most clutch of the 4.

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07-17-2013, 05:20 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
Who do you think votes for the Hart?
Hart isnt voted based off position. If you vote for a player he gets that vote. Votes are not being divided around since people are voting for the same player at different positions like it was for this years all-star teams.

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07-17-2013, 05:24 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by HawksFanTim View Post
How the heck does Hall have a single vote?
Youngest, fastest, roughest. 3 decent points. plus had second highest ppg out of the 4 last season while being 3-4 years younger than kane/toews. Also didnt play on a stacked powerhouse team with all-stars at every position.

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07-17-2013, 05:26 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Dominate Kesler View Post
Good god is Tavares underrated.
I literally face palmed so hard at the post my nose is bleeding (srs)

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07-17-2013, 05:28 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by HockeySensible View Post
That's unfounded, no matter who you say that about.

I think Tavares is the best goal-scorer, but I don't think he's the best sniper. I think Kane has a better shot than him, as does Toews IMO. Kane's clearly the most clutch of the 4.
I disagree, I think Tavares has the best wrist shot of them all, as well as the best goal scoring instincts.

Maybe Tavares doesn't have the best work ethic, but he has the biggest reputation for his work ethic. He's like Crosby or Kobe Bryant; a person with insane off-season dedication. Maybe that applies to Hall and Toews but if so, they're certainly a lot more quiet about it.

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07-17-2013, 05:29 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
Hall isn't in the same class as the others AINEC.
Don't worry he will soon enough, because he will dominate this season..

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07-17-2013, 05:37 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by HawksFanTim View Post
How the heck does Hall have a single vote?
probably cause he outscored Toews and Tavares this season and people see his talent

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07-17-2013, 06:00 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Dominate Kesler View Post
Good god is Tavares underrated. The only centers I would take over him is Crosby, Malkin, and Stamkos. He's still only 22.
He is winning this poll - handily beating two established stars with numerous accolades (and another play who puts up similar point totals to him), how much more rated can he get?

Always amused when NYI fans think they have a burgeoning good team - they need to remind themselves that poor Tavares is the ONLY good player they have. How everyone else on that team is even allowed to be in the NHL is beyond me

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07-17-2013, 06:07 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
I disagree, I think Tavares has the best wrist shot of them all, as well as the best goal scoring instincts.

Maybe Tavares doesn't have the best work ethic, but he has the biggest reputation for his work ethic. He's like Crosby or Kobe Bryant; a person with insane off-season dedication. Maybe that applies to Hall and Toews but if so, they're certainly a lot more quiet about it.
I've not heard one thing about Tavares' work ethic until your post, and I really don't hear much about Crosby's either. All the high-end players take good care of themselves, you can't prove one way or another who has the best/worst work ethic. We don't know.

For instance, we all know Kane likes to have a good time - it's well-documented - but there's nothing to suggest that when he's in the gym, he doesn't work as hard (or harder) than the next guy. Does a reputation for having fun prove that Kane works less hard than Hall, Toews or Tavares? I don't see how it does.

As for his shot, that's fine if you disagree.

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07-17-2013, 06:45 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by adorno View Post
He is winning this poll - handily beating two established stars with numerous accolades (and another play who puts up similar point totals to him), how much more rated can he get?

Always amused when NYI fans think they have a burgeoning good team - they need to remind themselves that poor Tavares is the ONLY good player they have. How everyone else on that team is even allowed to be in the NHL is beyond me
You're entitled to your opinion, but there is a lot of other young talent besides Tavares on the Islanders. They wouldn't have made the playoffs if they didn't get significant contributions from other players.

If you choose to dismiss the numerous reasons why Isles fans are excited for the future of the team, then so be it.


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07-17-2013, 06:47 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty View Post
probably cause he outscored Toews and Tavares this season and people see his talent
Don't get me wrong, Hall is a great talent and I enjoy watching him play. But to take him over all 3 other players in the poll seems like quite the stretch currently.

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07-17-2013, 07:13 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by KidLine93 View Post
thats a pretty big thing to ignore. Your response was all-star voting??? yeah uh Ovi was on the 1st/2nd all-star team for different positions. huge joke. so i wouldn't use all-star voting as a valid argument.
The only reason Tavares had a sniff of the Hart was because he had a good year on a mediocre team and with no runaway candidate many of the voters took the "to his team" part too far. The fact that Tavares can finish 3rd in Hart voting and yet 4th in All-Star centre voting (where they just pick who had the best seasons without being encumbered with trying to determine value in relation to their team) pretty much sums up my issue with Hart voting in general, but that is a whole other discussion.

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07-17-2013, 07:15 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
Tavares.

Best sniper
Best work ethic (trains insanely hard in the summer, doesn't party much, etc.,)
Very high hockey IQ
Incredible vision
Clutch player

He'll be the first to score 50 goals, and once Islanders get a few better scorers on the team (like Strome), he'll unanimously be the best player of the bunch.
Hmmm... 5 attributes that cannot be proven (unless by sniper you mean goalscorer, which the stats have already shown he is no better than Toews).

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07-17-2013, 07:19 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Marina View Post
Fair enough, although if you're looking strictly at points Kane still has more than Toews over their careers. And yeah I know Toews outscored his linemates, just not to the same extent Kane did.

Toews - 48 in 47
Hossa - 31 in 40
Saad - 27 in 46

Kane - 55 in 47
Sharp - 20 in 28
Bolland - 14 in 35
Kruger - 13 in 47
Hayes - 4 in 10
Carcillo - 3 in 23

Pretty significant dropoff. Also when Kane was on a line with Bolland they had tougher match-ups than Toews line did, in the end the stats pretty much balanced out when Bolland got injured, although Toews usually had the opposing teams #1 D pairing against him.
It makes no more sense for you to say Kane is better offensively because of last season, than it would be for me to say Toews is better because of the year before. Fact is that over larger sample sizes (both their careers and over the most recent 2/3 seasons) Kane has not significantly outscored Toews. As I said before, if he continues to outscore Toews like he did last season over several seasons I will have no problem admitting that Kane is significantly better offensively. But that simply has not happened yet.

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07-17-2013, 08:14 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
As I said before, if he continues to outscore Toews like he did last season over several seasons I will have no problem admitting that Kane is significantly better offensively. But that simply has not happened yet.
Jonathan Toews
2007-08: 54 points in 64 games
2008-09: 69 points in 82 games
2009-10: 68 points in 76 games
2010-11: 76 points in 80 games
2011-12: 57 points in 59 games
2012-13: 48 points in 47 games

Patrick Kane
2007-08: 72 points in 82 games
2008-09: 70 points in 80 games
2009-10: 88 points in 82 games
2010-11: 73 points in 73 games
2011-12: 66 points in 82 games
2012-13: 55 points in 47 games

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07-17-2013, 08:22 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
The only reason Tavares had a sniff of the Hart was because he had a good year on a mediocre team and with no runaway candidate many of the voters took the "to his team" part too far. The fact that Tavares can finish 3rd in Hart voting and yet 4th in All-Star centre voting (where they just pick who had the best seasons without being encumbered with trying to determine value in relation to their team) pretty much sums up my issue with Hart voting in general, but that is a whole other discussion.
Good point.

I guess the Ted Lindsay award would be a better way to determine a players ability since the NHLPA votes on that one.

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07-17-2013, 08:26 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Hmmm... 5 attributes that cannot be proven (unless by sniper you mean goalscorer, which the stats have already shown he is no better than Toews).
The clutch player part is even more awesome considering the fact that Tavares has played in all of 6 playoff games while Toews has played in over 70 (and won a Conn Smythe).

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07-17-2013, 09:10 PM
  #199
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It makes no more sense for you to say Kane is better offensively because of last season, than it would be for me to say Toews is better because of the year before. Fact is that over larger sample sizes (both their careers and over the most recent 2/3 seasons) Kane has not significantly outscored Toews. As I said before, if he continues to outscore Toews like he did last season over several seasons I will have no problem admitting that Kane is significantly better offensively. But that simply has not happened yet.
Kane has consistently outscored Toews. The reason the numbers look at as close as they did is because Kane had one really off season (11/12)...where he was playing out of position much of the time and recovering from wrist surgery.

Toews may be the more complete player...but Kane is obviously better offensively.

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07-17-2013, 09:17 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by HockeySensible View Post
That's unfounded, no matter who you say that about.

I think Tavares is the best goal-scorer, but I don't think he's the best sniper. I think Kane has a better shot than him, as does Toews IMO. Kane's clearly the most clutch of the 4.
That was likely the case before last season (his shot).... which brings us to the work ethic thing. Every offseason since he was drafted, Tavares has singled out a part of his game and improved it, greatly. If you read the Islander board from last year, a lot of us said his shot needed some work. I don't think you're going to find anyone saying that any more. I'm interested in seeing what he's worked on this offseason.... there's no doubt in my mind he will be even better next season.

I refuse to vote BTW


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