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Teams that play a lot of rookies tend to lose a lot of games

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Old
07-18-2013, 01:37 AM
  #151
buttercuppy
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Does anyone have a problem with seeing this year as a development year?
Nope. That's been my thought reading this whole thread. Look at the purge post 2010 and how patiently and steadily the team was built up over two years, with drafted players and judicious free agency, to win the Cup again in 2013.

Management didn't make any huge changes to the roster from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 even though people were alternatively calling for Kane to be traded, Q to be fired, a high priced 2nd center to be bought... instead, patience and an even head at the helm prevailed to excellent results.

Fans must be really spoiled if they think the default is winning the Stanley Cup. The rookies are going to need NHL seasoning -- you can't develop a drafted player without the rookie season unless we invent time travel.

Besides, next year is perfect: it's a Cup hangover year and repeating is unlikely. We still have many years of utility out of the peak years of Toews and Kane, and I like the way Bowman works. I, for one, make no bets about how any individual player will do next season, but I will definitely say that probably one or two will surprise me.

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07-18-2013, 02:02 AM
  #152
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07-18-2013, 02:03 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
The veterans I was referring to for next season are Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Bickell, Saad, Shaw, Kruger, Handzus, Bollig and all the d-men - not some veterans that will be picked up at the TDL.
Wouldn't overly worry about it...this team as built - if healthy - will be extremely difficult to beat over a 7-game series in the 2014 playoffs.

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07-18-2013, 02:28 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
The veterans I was referring to for next season are Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Bickell, Saad, Shaw, Kruger, Handzus, Bollig and all the d-men - not some veterans that will be picked up at the TDL.
Sorry to vent.

I find it laughable the hand wringing over the loss of a third line right winger who disappears in the playoffs and a fourth line right winger who only scored 3 regular season goals in a 48 game regular season schedule and 5 regular season goals in the previous season.

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07-18-2013, 03:06 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Sorry to vent.

I find it laughable the hand wringing over the loss of a third line right winger who disappears in the playoffs and a fourth line right winger who only scored 3 regular season goals in a 48 game regular season schedule and 5 regular season goals in the previous season.
Hand wringing is a way of life on message boards. Nothing new.

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07-18-2013, 08:18 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
I disagree. Bickell is a better skater and has a better shot than Ladd. Ladd is a more physical player in all aspects - consistency, hitting, grinding, dropping the gloves.
Bickell's skating has improved leaps and bounds the last couple of years.. but no, he still isn't a better skater then Ladd.

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07-18-2013, 08:33 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by buttercuppy View Post
Nope. That's been my thought reading this whole thread. Look at the purge post 2010 and how patiently and steadily the team was built up over two years, with drafted players and judicious free agency, to win the Cup again in 2013.

Management didn't make any huge changes to the roster from 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 even though people were alternatively calling for Kane to be traded, Q to be fired, a high priced 2nd center to be bought... instead, patience and an even head at the helm prevailed to excellent results.

Fans must be really spoiled if they think the default is winning the Stanley Cup. The rookies are going to need NHL seasoning -- you can't develop a drafted player without the rookie season unless we invent time travel.

Besides, next year is perfect: it's a Cup hangover year and repeating is unlikely. We still have many years of utility out of the peak years of Toews and Kane, and I like the way Bowman works. I, for one, make no bets about how any individual player will do next season, but I will definitely say that probably one or two will surprise me.
Great post...I was thinking the same thing. There is no better year to bring in some young players and get them quality ice time at the NHL level than this upcoming season. No one EXPECTS the Hawks to repeat anyway...like you said it is unlikely to repeat, especially in the cap era. Better chance of another Cup would be 2014-2015, once some of these "kids" have a year under their belts, although I still believe the Hawks still have a good chance at winning the Cup again in 2013-2014.

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07-18-2013, 08:59 AM
  #158
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Actually, I can see this team being just as good or better. Roster looks better IMO.

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07-18-2013, 10:34 AM
  #159
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Team could be better..1. Sharp injured much of the 48 game reg season...only tecovered to elite form in playoffs..2. Bickell emerged into impact PF during playoffs..now a first liner difference-maker clearing space so that T and K can produce rven more.. 3. Seabrpok was awful most of the reg. season...only back to form in playoffs..4.Line 2 should benefit and produce more IF either Pirri or Leblanc takrs that spot at centre there and is effectove in that role...Handzus did fine there in playoffs and is still there as insurance if Pirri or Leblanc fail..but if they do well we are a better team..5 Man-child should be stronger and more confident as a vet now not a rookie.....6. Crawford bevame consistently good and also in his contract year..so cannot see him getting complacent...he will want to earn big bucks contract.. 7. PP coild not be worse...only 1 way to go and that is up...so expect a better PP with the now vaunted Leddy running that showfrom the point...7. Blood and guts Shaw always good but now imcentive to be even better to get more on his next contract. 8. Intact Cup Championship d-corps...stability and familiarity..should eork like butter...real smooth...so all in all lots to think this team is vapable of even being better than last season.. Of course bad luck or injuries can de-rail such optimistic forecasts..or Cup fatigue/ short re-covery period this summer for R&R...or Complacency mindset...been there,done that syndrome..but barring such calamities it looks real good again...legit Cup front-runner team.

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07-18-2013, 01:10 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
Team could be better..1. Sharp injured much of the 48 game reg season...only tecovered to elite form in playoffs..2. Bickell emerged into impact PF during playoffs..now a first liner difference-maker clearing space so that T and K can produce rven more.. 3. Seabrpok was awful most of the reg. season...only back to form in playoffs..4.Line 2 should benefit and produce more IF either Pirri or Leblanc takrs that spot at centre there and is effectove in that role...Handzus did fine there in playoffs and is still there as insurance if Pirri or Leblanc fail..but if they do well we are a better team..5 Man-child should be stronger and more confident as a vet now not a rookie.....6. Crawford bevame consistently good and also in his contract year..so cannot see him getting complacent...he will want to earn big bucks contract.. 7. PP coild not be worse...only 1 way to go and that is up...so expect a better PP with the now vaunted Leddy running that showfrom the point...7. Blood and guts Shaw always good but now imcentive to be even better to get more on his next contract. 8. Intact Cup Championship d-corps...stability and familiarity..should eork like butter...real smooth...so all in all lots to think this team is vapable of even being better than last season.. Of course bad luck or injuries can de-rail such optimistic forecasts..or Cup fatigue/ short re-covery period this summer for R&R...or Complacency mindset...been there,done that syndrome..but barring such calamities it looks real good again...legit Cup front-runner team.
Good post fiddy.

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07-18-2013, 01:11 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by SLarmer28 View Post
Sorry to vent.

I find it laughable the hand wringing over the loss of a third line right winger who disappears in the playoffs and a fourth line right winger who only scored 3 regular season goals in a 48 game regular season schedule and 5 regular season goals in the previous season.
No problem - venting is healthy

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07-18-2013, 01:12 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by clydesdale line View Post
Bickell's skating has improved leaps and bounds the last couple of years.. but no, he still isn't a better skater then Ladd.
Agree to disagree - Bickell is faster and just as quick/agile.

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07-18-2013, 01:20 PM
  #163
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I also think that management is looking at 2013/14 as a development year. That's not to say the Hawks won't have a shot to win it again next season but more of a reality that the forward depth that was so vital in rolling 4 lines last season will not be as deep/experienced in 2013/14. It's time to determine if any of this wave of prospects (Smith, Pirri, Morin, Hayes) are good enough to be in future plans. If one of two of them fit, then the team will be back to a very deep team and primed to make a strong run in 2014/15. If none of this crop of prospects cut the mustard, then the next wave of prospects can get a shot later in 2013/14 and in 2014/15 with the plan to be stacked again for a strong run in 2015/16.

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07-18-2013, 02:27 PM
  #164
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I think its a good thing to have rookies on the roster this year...Everyone just coming off winning constantly for a year, thats tough to turn around and try to do it again. I think the influx of some fresh energy will be great for everyone.

Sharp and Hossa get to see what Pirri is all about instead of grinding away with Handzus for the long haul

more people to get opportunities on the penalty kill

morin finally gets his chance to become an NHL player

I think its great\

Bickell-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Pirri-Hossa
Saad-Shaw-Morin
Smith-Kruger-Bollig

or

Sharp-Toews-Kane
Bickell-Pirri-Hossa
Saad-Kruger-Shaw
Smith-Handzus-Bollig


Last edited by ChiHawk21: 07-18-2013 at 02:39 PM.
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Old
07-18-2013, 03:41 PM
  #165
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Yep, I'd say most people think an influx of youthful energy will be good for the team. Not that they particularly need it, but it's always good to have some fresh faces in the locker room and the young guys will add a lot of energy to he line-up.

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07-18-2013, 04:39 PM
  #166
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I can't see Bickell being paid what he is to be a 3rd liner...but I can't see Saad on the 3rd line all season either.

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07-18-2013, 04:48 PM
  #167
SLarmer28
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Originally Posted by EbonyRaptor View Post
I also think that management is looking at 2013/14 as a development year. That's not to say the Hawks won't have a shot to win it again next season but more of a reality that the forward depth that was so vital in rolling 4 lines last season will not be as deep/experienced in 2013/14.
Do the following fourth lines of opposing teams scare you:

Pittsburgh

Glass - Vitale - Adams

Los Angeles

Carcillo - Fraser - Nolan

Seriously?

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07-18-2013, 05:06 PM
  #168
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Can people please stop acting like Bickell was only playing like a top 6 forward in the playoffs?

Did anyone else watch the regular season? Just because he didn't play on the PP doesn't mean that he wasn't one of the best 3rd liners in the NHL and clearly playing like a top 6 talent.

Bryan Bickell(12-13)
48 games, 9 goals, 14 assists, 23 points, +12, 108 hits, 82 SOG
Pro-Rated stats:
82 games, 16 goals, 24 assists, 40 points, +21, 185 hits, 140 SOG

Consider this was almost entirely on the 3rd line and almost zero power play time.

Even Strength Points? 23 of them. Same as Henrik Zetterberg, Jeff Carter, Jordan Staal and MORE than David Backes, Jarome Iginla, Patrik Elias, Mike Ribeiro, Joe Thornton, Nathan Horton, James Neal, Loui Eriksson, Marian Gaboik, ect ect ect ... I think I've proved my point.

Now factor in that he was physical, engaging, and had great board play...yes, he was a top 6er last year but playing on the 3rd line. Our team was the best in the NHL. The last time we won the Cup we had Versteeg and Ladd on the 3rd line as well...doesn't mean they are "3rd liners".

Bickell doesn't need to play in the top 6, either IMO. If he fits in well with Toews/Kane...great. If not? Great, he can play on the 3rd line with Shaw and continue to be one of the best 3rd lines in the entire NHL. Again, you saw his even strength production on the same pace as Zetterberg, Ribeiro, Thornton, Neal, Eriksson, ect. so why does it matter what line he is on if it helps the team? He is signed to a 4 year, 4 mil deal no matter what so we don't need to play him in the top 6 to justify his deal to HFBoard idiots. If he does play well there from the beginning then keep him there and if not, he can play on the 2nd or 3rd line just as well.

The one difference that I could see would be to give him much more power play time. He clearly has hands around the net and can screen the goalie and give/take abuse in front of the net when he is willing so if he is...he should be on the 1st unit. Only if he gives the effort though.

Still, Coach Q will play Bickell based on where he sees him fit best and what best fits the team...not based on how much he makes. That is just stupid IMO.

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07-18-2013, 05:13 PM
  #169
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I can't see Bickell being paid what he is to be a 3rd liner...but I can't see Saad on the 3rd line all season either.
You forgot about Coach Q's random line generator.

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07-18-2013, 06:14 PM
  #170
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The only legitimate question mark on this team in Pirri (or whoever else) at 2C. This has been a question mark since we won the Cup in 2010 and Sharp moved back to wing.

Morin at 3RW and Smith at 4RW will be fine. Morin will be a slight downgrade from regular-season Stalberg and Smith will be a slight upgrade from regular-season Frolik. It will be hard for Morin to be less effective than Stalberg in the playoffs, but Frolik was a playoff performer while he was here so it will be interesting to watch what happens there.

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07-18-2013, 06:30 PM
  #171
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The only legitimate question mark on this team in Pirri (or whoever else) at 2C. This has been a question mark since we won the Cup in 2010 and Sharp moved back to wing.

Morin at 3RW and Smith at 4RW will be fine. Morin will be a slight downgrade from regular-season Stalberg and Smith will be a slight upgrade from regular-season Frolik. It will be hard for Morin to be less effective than Stalberg in the playoffs, but Frolik was a playoff performer while he was here so it will be interesting to watch what happens there.
Doubtful and doubtful.

Morin will most likely be a significant downgrade from Stalberg's regular season performance. And I doubt Smith plays defense and PK as well as Frolik did.

There will definitely be growing pains, and those pains will cost the Hawks a little.

Thing is, it needed to happen. Cap went down, players got older and more expensive, prospects got older and closer to NHL players.

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07-18-2013, 06:50 PM
  #172
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Well good thing we have the same four top forwards and top 3 defensemen that lead is to 2 Cups.

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07-18-2013, 07:36 PM
  #173
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Morin scores 15G 15A and provides some physical play along with decent defense, that will be just enough to replace Stalberg. Frolik is definitely more irreplaceable, but neither is significant.

And I think Froliks PK ability is getting pretty overvalued. It was as more the system than Frolik. Almost every 2 forwards we threw out there, got the job done.

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07-18-2013, 07:57 PM
  #174
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Morin scores 15G 15A and provides some physical play along with decent defense, that will be just enough to replace Stalberg. Frolik is definitely more irreplaceable, but neither is significant.

And I think Froliks PK ability is getting pretty overvalued. It was as more the system than Frolik. Almost every 2 forwards we threw out there, got the job done.
With 3rd and 4th line ES minutes and little to no PP time, I doubt Morin hits 15 goals.

I think it's just going to take longer for the prospects to become full NHL-caliber players.

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07-19-2013, 01:11 PM
  #175
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Hopefully the rookies push guys like Saad, Leddy, Kruger, and Shaw to avoid post-Cup complacency and keep developing.

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