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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-18-2013, 11:28 AM
  #351
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
To be fair, PK was brought up to play 2 games during the season in 09-10, then sent back down. But it wasn't because he was bad. When he was called back up in the POs he never went back.
Price was also sent down in his rookie year for a little stint of 10 games.

In any event, PK was on a whole other level compared to all the others when he came out of his ELC.

I think both Bergevin and Therrien weren't sold on PK, they both hinted towards it. Bergevin said he needed to see some things from him, and Therrien said he's good but he wants him to be great. But PK already was a great Dman.
I didn't remember that Price was sent down, he finished that year with twice as many wins than loses :O

For PK, he was only called up to fill a hole on D, it's not the same as Max where he was called up, played a ton of games but was sent down to find his game again.

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Old
07-18-2013, 11:29 AM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
To be fair, PK was brought up to play 2 games during the season in 09-10, then sent back down. But it wasn't because he was bad. When he was called back up in the POs he never went back.
Price was also sent down in his rookie year for a little stint of 10 games.

In any event, PK was on a whole other level compared to all the others when he came out of his ELC.

I think both Bergevin and Therrien weren't sold on PK, they both hinted towards it. Bergevin said he needed to see some things from him, and Therrien said he's good but he wants him to be great. But PK already was a great Dman.
All very subjective.. Great to Therrien could mean a lot more than it means to you

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Old
07-18-2013, 11:58 AM
  #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Duncan Keith. (Although this type of contract is no longer allowed, it takes him from the year he won the Norris until he is 40 years old)

Who cares about other teams. A lot of us discussed signing PK long term before he got his bridge contract. I based a 6 year deal on the fact that PK would one day be a Norris finalist and possibly even winning it. To a lot of our surprise, he won it this year. I also added that after he finishes his 6 year deal, the Habs would sign him to a contract of 8 years, thus taking him to the end of his career and having a low salary in the later years, keeping his cap hit at around the 5.75 million per that I calculated for the 6 year contract.

Seriously you don't quite get it. A lot of players are on Cap Hit discounts. Look at Crosby. He should have a cap hit of 12 million, in respect to him being arguably the best player in the NHL, but he is happy with making an average of 8.7 million.

Any team takes a risk signing any player long term, but not many players in the NHL are special like PK. I don't understand how MB could be so naive to think that the bridge deal was the best way going forward for the Habs. And before anyone says "MB knows better, he is the GM" well this part of hockey isn't hockey, it's business. In my opinion, this was a huge blunder on his part.

The problem with this next contract is that it takes him into his prime. Now that he won the Norris, if he gets an 8 year extension, it takes him from 25-33 years old. He no longer has a year of salary that would be under 6 million. At 32, he is in decline, but not that much. Maybe bring it down to 4 million? He made his job a lot more difficult.

Again it all comes down to this being a message board where people come to discuss all things related to the Habs. I do not think that bridge deal in any way factored into the results of last year and I will continue to plead my case.
Duncan Keith is being paid 5.5M per season on a 10 years + contract. That's more of a loophole in the old CBA than a "5 years, 5M per contract" that everyone is talking about.

Several of you guys might have thought it was better to give Subban a long-term contract right away. Color me surprised. You hide behind a message board, where people say things that have no impact whatsoever on their team's performance.

You look around and see guys like Tyler Myers who was signed to a huge contract, and you think you have to be careful with "young d-men showing promise"... Especially when the said d-man is known for his offensive game more than anything, and that he only put on 38 and 36 points seasons so far.

You comparing Subban's situation to Subban is just all that more ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with taking the risk of signing an unproven asset to a 6 years deal in the 5M range.

Look around the league, and tell me how much of a discount Chara was. How much of a discount Lidstrom was. How much of a discount Doughty is. How much of a discount Ryan Suter is. How much of a discount a guy like Shea Weber is.

Stop acting all high and mighty. Nobody could say Subban was a sure thing to win the Norris. It was still highly speculative. Truth is, whenever your player is worth it, you have no problem paying full-price. The problem is, and always has been, paying guys like Gionta and Gorges to long-term, expensive contracts when they're guys you can easily replace on your team.

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Old
07-18-2013, 12:01 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Here's what I don't understand from people.
You don't understand because you make assumptions and jump to conclusions, read stuff between the lines that's not there. Here's why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
1- Price, MaxPac, Eller, etc, were not where PK was at the end of their ELC. They also weren't dealing with Bergevin. I fail to see how them signing a bridge deal has any relevance. I mean, why not compare Gallagher to Ryan White then for his next deal.
No, that would be crazy right? Why would it be crazy though? Because those players are nowhere near the same caliber/value right?? Well, MaxPac had played a good 30ish games before almost getting decapitated. That's when he signed his ELC. It wasn't after two very solid years, it wasn't after making the All-Star team in one of them. It wasn't after effectively taking over first line duties. The same can be said of all the players you named. Comparing two players that were not at all on the same level coming out of their ELC is just ridiculous.
I dare say that both Max Pacioretty and Carey Price, AT THAT TIME, were perceived as top prospects. Price, as a matter of fact, was in the exact same boat as PK, having made the All-Star team and taking over the number one goaltender's spot in Montreal. Fact. Comparing White and Gallagher is a lame attempt at ridicule, which any reasonable person would easily read through as smoke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
2- Saying PK would become complacent like others throughout the league (I don't think Myers was, I believe his injuries affected him more) is judging his character, and there's really no reason to do that. You have never seen PK take a night off, never seen him slack off during practices, he's never been in bad rumors regarding his lifestyle, has always conducted himself in a very poised and professional manner, has a desire to win that is undeniable, takes his nutrition and off season training very seriously. But ya, I'm supposed to believe him earning his just value would make him complacent...Sure. I guess we'll see, if that's his character, then he should be complacent after his next deal.
Never said that he would, but I did say that he could. Big difference between the W and the C in this case. If you say that he couldn't, it's just as ridiculous as someone claiming that he would. Can't predict the future, as proven by the Sabres and the Canes. Oh and you forgot to address the fights in practice, by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
3- 2.8M for PK is not a bargain, it's robbery. Even if PK hadn't progressed, that he simply stayed at the same level, he was worth double what he got. I don't think you remember this ''negotiation'' very well, but PK mentioned a few times at the end of it that he needed to sit with his family and decide what would be best. He didn't sound particularly enthused, and when questioned about requesting a trade, he never actually shut down the possibility. McKenzie even said on a few occasions to be ready to expect the worse, that he wouldn't be surprised if he was moved. If you think every agent will just bow down to those standards, you might be in for a surprise.
That's your opinion, not facts, which you don't seem to be able to differentiate. I feel it's a good deal. Who's right? I also remember when people were saying that Plekanec would leave after going through arbitration... where is he now? The fact is that no one knows what Subban's true intentions are. What we know is that he has always said, including in a recent interview, that he wants to play his entire career in Montreal. Fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
4- You mention Galchenyuk, you realize he has a higher cap hit than PK right?? A freaking 19yo in his rookie season had the possibility of earning more cash than PK. If Gally sees his role and production increase to a 1st liner scoring ppg over the next two seasons, maybe he will get a bridge deal, but I don't see how he'll agree to cheap cash like PK did, nor should he.
It's one thing to force players to go through a bridge deal, it's another to force them in agreeing to take half of their worth. We played with fire in doing that.
Kriss, Kriss, Kriss... you are exposing yourself here. Don't you know the bargaining power that a first round pick, 3rd overall holds on a team for their entry level deals? Do yourself a favour and check the cap hit of the top 3-5 picks in the last few years for their entry level contracts and come back to compare apples with apples, and leave the oranges out. And you didn't address the precedent setting I was referring to, specifically with the Galchenyuk example. Unlike you, Bergevin is managing a true team and he's thinking further than his own nose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
5- We did not need any cap flexibility. The league had already come out to permit two compliance buy outs. That means we had more than enough room to fit PK in at even 6M, even with the cap dropping the following year. So that's a false statement. We just decided to give the money to Briere instead, and now still have 3M free.
That's once again your opinion, not necessarily the truth. You're also going on hindsight, knowing today that the Habs didn't use that cap space last year. I'm going on facts (based on the time frame given) for the thinking process. Time will tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
6- There are two players I refuse to give much credit to management for, that's PK and Eller. Sure, you can say they gave them some pointers, I mean, that's what they're there for. However, I think they have misused both. PK was used as a 3rd pairing Dman and only saw 2nd wave PP minutes until Diaz got injured. That was retarded.
PK improved every year no matter who the coach. He's a smart player that only wants to get better and win the cup. Maybe JJ helped him out a bit, after all, that's his job, but I give the bulk of the credit to the player himself. After winning the Norris PK goes out of his way to credit pretty much every one out there that has ever been involved with him dating back to his minor days, he thanks the ownership group in Mtl but he leaves out Bergevin and Therrien, I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but I don't think it was a mistake.
Here's the link in case you didn't see it:
http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=259269

(Same thing for Eller, this guy was picked out of a bunch of players to be scratched for no real reason, was given bottom line minutes, and had to fight his way up with very little help from the coaching staff)
Again, your opinion which you seem to mistake for the facts, the reality. You're entitled to it, but don't take it to the bank as you won't get anything for it. I've specifically spoken highly in the article of the credit due to Subban. I'm certainly not downplaying (or worse, disliking) the guy. But contrarily to you and a few others here, I can see that management was/is working on instating a team concept which includes star and role players, where everyone must buy in. Not at the detriment of the star players as some of you claim, but for the best of the organization, the franchise, where the logo in front is more important than the name and number in the back of those jerseys. I can't say that I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
So ya, you can sit on a nice comfortable chair and speculate about a million things as to why it was a good move. But PK was worth a lot more than 2.8M and forcing down such a crap contract on him is not a good strategy, now he'll break the bank, and we could have had him for cheaper. Maybe you don't care about the cap all that much (ironic considering you mention cap reason as to why Bergevin had to sign him for such a small deal) but at the end of the day, he'll cost us more than we could have had him. Simple, and clear.
Yes, I can speculate as much as you do when talking about the way it was handled internally by the Habs, you're right. We simply don't come to the same conclusion, with the exception of the fact that he'll cost more now, as I've addressed in the article (did you miss it?).

You are jumping to a conclusion without looking (or by downplaying) other factors. That's what compelled me to put everything together, including history. Not saying that you're wrong, but I don't feel that I am either.

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Old
07-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  #355
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Just because those D-men aren't signed to discounts, doesn't mean GMs wouldn't jump at the opportunity to get them at a discount. The Canadiens had that opportunity and blew it.

There was no indication that Subban's progression would stop, that's why people thought that 5 million for 6 years would be a great deal. They said this several times before his Norris campaign and they were proven right. Begervin said he wanted to "see things" and make "Subban a man" before committing. Shows lack of foresight and an inability to read the potential in a player imo, which is concerning as they also did the same thing to Eller at the begining of the season (not in terms of contract but in terms of playing time). It's concerning when Elliot Friedman reported that the reason Bergevin decided to hold on to Eller was because other GMs were extremely interested in him, so decided to hold on to him to see if Eller could show what other GMs were interested in.

Subban's current play at 5 million> Subban's current play at 7 million. For a GM who said that "every dollar against the cap counts," he blew a huge opportunity for savings that could be spent elsewhere. Moreover, when you consider the fact that Montreal almost always has to over pay to sign players, saving dollars is beneficial to the team.


Last edited by Andy: 07-18-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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Old
07-18-2013, 12:23 PM
  #356
CrAzYNiNe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Duncan Keith is being paid 5.5M per season on a 10 years + contract. That's more of a loophole in the old CBA than a "5 years, 5M per contract" that everyone is talking about.

Several of you guys might have thought it was better to give Subban a long-term contract right away. Color me surprised. You hide behind a message board, where people say things that have no impact whatsoever on their team's performance.

You look around and see guys like Tyler Myers who was signed to a huge contract, and you think you have to be careful with "young d-men showing promise"... Especially when the said d-man is known for his offensive game more than anything, and that he only put on 38 and 36 points seasons so far.

You comparing Subban's situation to Subban is just all that more ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with taking the risk of signing an unproven asset to a 6 years deal in the 5M range.

Look around the league, and tell me how much of a discount Chara was. How much of a discount Lidstrom was. How much of a discount Doughty is. How much of a discount Ryan Suter is. How much of a discount a guy like Shea Weber is.

Stop acting all high and mighty. Nobody could say Subban was a sure thing to win the Norris. It was still highly speculative. Truth is, whenever your player is worth it, you have no problem paying full-price. The problem is, and always has been, paying guys like Gionta and Gorges to long-term, expensive contracts when they're guys you can easily replace on your team.
I think you are the one who like hiding behind a message board. You speak totally out of your ass, throwing around a bunch of non sense that in no way relates to the situation.

I've never once compared Subban to Myers. I haven't watched Myers grow, I haven't listened to him in interviews, I didn't follow him in juniors, I have no idea what family he comes from. Subban on the other hand has shown that he has a team first mentality, that he was raised by a family who believed in respect. Because Subban was drafted in Montreal, and that he is charismatic, we saw all these sides of him. When Subban was looking for a contract, I was on board to sign him for 6 years at 5.75 million per year, because I saw the potential he brings. He is not an overnight success, he is not a one hit wonder. He wants to be the best, he works to be the best. I compare him to no one, because I simply do no know any other young defensemen in the NHL the way we saw Subban. I never said that Subban was a sure thing to win the Norris, but I was damn sure he would be a finalist in one of the 6 years of the deal I would of offered him. And even if he wasn't a finalist, at 5.75 million a year, even if he is a top10 D in the league, it's a bargain.

Unproven asset? So he did nothing in the 3 NHL seasons he played before this contact? (I consider his first NHL year as the playoffs in 2009-2010, shutting down Crosby as a rookie was telling in itself). If that is your opinion, good for you. You are wrong to tell me he didn't prove anything. I thought he would win a Norris and look at that, he does it the same year. Unproven... how was he unproven...

Sutter UFA, irrelevant. Chara UFA, irrelevant. Weber was offer sheeted, irrelevant. Wow look at that, you mention 5 players and 3 of them are irrelevant. Do I see a trend in your posting?

Lindstrom was the stepping stone in Detroit. No one made more than him in the cap era of the NHL. After the lockout, he won 4 Norris trophies and yet was no where near the cap ceiling as one of the best players in the world. The Red Wings got a discount on him and on other players because he set the bar low.

Doughty is the only one that measures up. But even then, he was already making 3.5 million on his ELC. He was a finalist in 09-10 and followed up that season with another strong performance. I would also attribute him being a 2nd overall pick into why he was given such a long term deal.

It's ok if you live in a world of worry and fear. When looking at Subban and how he played, and how he wants to win, I was never worried or feared he would regress.

You have no arguments to prove your oblivious point of view. Keep trying, maybe you'll get lucky.

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Old
07-18-2013, 12:50 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I dare say that both Max Pacioretty and Carey Price, AT THAT TIME, were perceived as top prospects. Price, as a matter of fact, was in the exact same boat as PK, having made the All-Star team and taking over the number one goaltender's spot in Montreal. Fact. Comparing White and Gallagher is a lame attempt at ridicule, which any reasonable person would easily read through as smoke.
Price and Pacioretty were top prospects, Subban was a top player. That's a huge difference. If Price hadn't lost his job to Halak then you could argue they were in the same boat, but he was coming off a terrible season where he lost his role. That's a big red flag much like Myers regressing from his rookie year. Subban never had a bad season so not at all comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's once again your opinion, not necessarily the truth. You're also going on hindsight, knowing today that the Habs didn't use that cap space last year. I'm going on facts (based on the time frame given) for the thinking process. Time will tell.
If you have a long term vision then it's very easy to predict not needing cap space in the 2 years following a last place finish. Especially since your stated intention is to build through the draft, i.e not go out and spend on UFAs.

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07-18-2013, 01:03 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Duncan Keith is being paid 5.5M per season on a 10 years + contract. That's more of a loophole in the old CBA than a "5 years, 5M per contract" that everyone is talking about.

Several of you guys might have thought it was better to give Subban a long-term contract right away. Color me surprised. You hide behind a message board, where people say things that have no impact whatsoever on their team's performance.

You look around and see guys like Tyler Myers who was signed to a huge contract, and you think you have to be careful with "young d-men showing promise"... Especially when the said d-man is known for his offensive game more than anything, and that he only put on 38 and 36 points seasons so far.

You comparing Subban's situation to Subban is just all that more ridiculous. It has absolutely nothing to do with taking the risk of signing an unproven asset to a 6 years deal in the 5M range.

Look around the league, and tell me how much of a discount Chara was. How much of a discount Lidstrom was. How much of a discount Doughty is. How much of a discount Ryan Suter is. How much of a discount a guy like Shea Weber is.

Stop acting all high and mighty. Nobody could say Subban was a sure thing to win the Norris. It was still highly speculative. Truth is, whenever your player is worth it, you have no problem paying full-price. The problem is, and always has been, paying guys like Gionta and Gorges to long-term, expensive contracts when they're guys you can easily replace on your team.
Keith was on a 4 year 1.475m dollar deal when he won the Norris. They rolled the dice and gave him a 4 year deal rather than a 2 year bridge and reaped the rewards. Also it doesn't matter if it's a loop hole or not he's an example of how a Norris worthy defenceman at a big discount is a big + for the team. Without that discount they lose another important player and have a harder time winning the cup. We had the chance to get a Norris winner at a 3M discount but lacked the foresight to do so.

Even without the Norris Subban was worth 5m long term because he was a #1 D. And if you felt he was an offence only D that only managed 38pts, then you weren't watching the same games as the rest of us. It was clear as day Subban was a top pairing #1D. By the way the number of players who played up to their long term deals after their ELC exceed those that didn't.

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Old
07-18-2013, 01:05 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
You don't understand because you make assumptions and jump to conclusions, read stuff between the lines that's not there. Here's why:
No, I don't understand because that reasoning makes no sense at all to me.
PK was a great player already, he was effectively shutting down opponents as our #1 Dman, even on a last place team he very encouraging stats. Based on this alone, I don't understand why anybody would not want to lock him up to a long term deal. In any event, bridge deal or not, him making a tad more over Emelin is ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I dare say that both Max Pacioretty and Carey Price, AT THAT TIME, were perceived as top prospects. Price, as a matter of fact, was in the exact same boat as PK, having made the All-Star team and taking over the number one goaltender's spot in Montreal. Fact. Comparing White and Gallagher is a lame attempt at ridicule, which any reasonable person would easily read through as smoke.
Really? That's your argument? They were perceived as top prospects?
MaxPac had yet to play a full season, and almost ended his career. That's comparable to you?
Price was given the number #1 role when we moved Huet. His All-Star appearance came the same year Komisarek got one, need I remind you why?
Also, he lost that #1 role to Halak the year his ELC ended, Halak was moved in the off season so Carey was once again given the #1 spot. He finished the year sitting playing half a season without earning 15 wins. But ya, totally comparable to PK..

And as you said yourself, you could still consider those guys PROSPECTS. PK was our #1 Dman, that wasn't going to change, there was no question mark about whether or not he could handle the load, he had already proven himself capable of it.

By the way, those are facts, not an opinion.

The ridicule in comparing White to Gallagher was the whole point. I even said so myself. It's the same thing, just to much higher degree.

You also completely ignored the fact it was under a previous administration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Never said that he would, but I did say that he could. Big difference between the W and the C in this case. If you say that he couldn't, it's just as ridiculous as someone claiming that he would. Can't predict the future, as proven by the Sabres and the Canes. Oh and you forgot to address the fights in practice, by the way.
Sure he could, I also think he couldn't. The difference between you and I is that I actually base my opinion on PK's history. You decide to pay more attention to other guys and say ''hey, it happened to them! It could happen to PK!'', but you completely disregard PK's character.

Again, you completely ignored the facts about his personality and character I've brought forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's your opinion, not facts, which you don't seem to be able to differentiate. I feel it's a good deal. Who's right? I also remember when people were saying that Plekanec would leave after going through arbitration... where is he now? The fact is that no one knows what Subban's true intentions are. What we know is that he has always said, including in a recent interview, that he wants to play his entire career in Montreal. Fact.
Really Habsterix? A 2.8M for an effective #1 Dman in all zones is just a good deal...
Right.
Plekanec going through arbitration is not at all similar, and I never thought Plekanec would love due to it.

You have damn hockey blog, you know damn well you don't need to be a freaking genius insider to realize it was a lowball deal, and locking out a player for contractual dispute is never good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Kriss, Kriss, Kriss... you are exposing yourself here. Don't you know the bargaining power that a first round pick, 3rd overall holds on a team for their entry level deals? Do yourself a favour and check the cap hit of the top 3-5 picks in the last few years for their entry level contracts and come back to compare apples with apples, and leave the oranges out. And you didn't address the precedent setting I was referring to, specifically with the Galchenyuk example. Unlike you, Bergevin is managing a true team and he's thinking further than his own nose.
No I'm not. I'm fully aware of the difference, but the point still stands. PK is making peanuts for what he brings.
As for the precedent, I did. These kids are advised by agents, if the agents feel it's really not in their client's best interest to sign a cheap bridge deal, then we could go through another dispute.
I also think making every player go through the same process is incredibly moronic because not all of them are the same, and when guys like PK, who have such an impact on the team right away are willing to sign at a discounted price for a long term, you do it. It will only help.

Bergevin might change his little view once PK makes him crack open the vault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
That's once again your opinion, not necessarily the truth. You're also going on hindsight, knowing today that the Habs didn't use that cap space last year. I'm going on facts (based on the time frame given) for the thinking process. Time will tell.
No, it's not hindsight. We had the cap space, compliance buy outs were already confirmed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Again, your opinion which you seem to mistake for the facts, the reality. You're entitled to it, but don't take it to the bank as you won't get anything for it. I've specifically spoken highly in the article of the credit due to Subban. I'm certainly not downplaying (or worse, disliking) the guy. But contrarily to you and a few others here, I can see that management was/is working on instating a team concept which includes star and role players, where everyone must buy in. Not at the detriment of the star players as some of you claim, but for the best of the organization, the franchise, where the logo in front is more important than the name and number in the back of those jerseys. I can't say that I disagree.
I'm not mistaking my opinion for a fact, I just strongly disagree with any of the points that supposedly back up MB's decision.

That's all good, it's all about the logo. Still doesn't make not signing your star Dman to a longer cheaper deal a better idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Yes, I can speculate as much as you do when talking about the way it was handled internally by the Habs, you're right. We simply don't come to the same conclusion, with the exception of the fact that he'll cost more now, as I've addressed in the article (did you miss it?).

You are jumping to a conclusion without looking (or by downplaying) other factors. That's what compelled me to put everything together, including history. Not saying that you're wrong, but I don't feel that I am either.
Not jumping to any conclusion. Contractual disputes have lead to trades before, fact.
PK is worth a lot more than the contract he signed, fact, no not an opinion, just look up the rest of the #1 Dman of the league and make an average.
PK will cost us a lot more now. Fact.

Bergevin setting a precedent and will actually stick to it. Assumption.

I'm not the one inventing anything. We differ in opinion, that's all.


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07-18-2013, 01:44 PM
  #360
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I think you are the one who like hiding behind a message board. You speak totally out of your ass, throwing around a bunch of non sense that in no way relates to the situation.

I've never once compared Subban to Myers. I haven't watched Myers grow, I haven't listened to him in interviews, I didn't follow him in juniors, I have no idea what family he comes from. Subban on the other hand has shown that he has a team first mentality, that he was raised by a family who believed in respect. Because Subban was drafted in Montreal, and that he is charismatic, we saw all these sides of him. When Subban was looking for a contract, I was on board to sign him for 6 years at 5.75 million per year, because I saw the potential he brings. He is not an overnight success, he is not a one hit wonder. He wants to be the best, he works to be the best. I compare him to no one, because I simply do no know any other young defensemen in the NHL the way we saw Subban. I never said that Subban was a sure thing to win the Norris, but I was damn sure he would be a finalist in one of the 6 years of the deal I would of offered him. And even if he wasn't a finalist, at 5.75 million a year, even if he is a top10 D in the league, it's a bargain.

Unproven asset? So he did nothing in the 3 NHL seasons he played before this contact? (I consider his first NHL year as the playoffs in 2009-2010, shutting down Crosby as a rookie was telling in itself). If that is your opinion, good for you. You are wrong to tell me he didn't prove anything. I thought he would win a Norris and look at that, he does it the same year. Unproven... how was he unproven...

Sutter UFA, irrelevant. Chara UFA, irrelevant. Weber was offer sheeted, irrelevant. Wow look at that, you mention 5 players and 3 of them are irrelevant. Do I see a trend in your posting?

Lindstrom was the stepping stone in Detroit. No one made more than him in the cap era of the NHL. After the lockout, he won 4 Norris trophies and yet was no where near the cap ceiling as one of the best players in the world. The Red Wings got a discount on him and on other players because he set the bar low.

Doughty is the only one that measures up. But even then, he was already making 3.5 million on his ELC. He was a finalist in 09-10 and followed up that season with another strong performance. I would also attribute him being a 2nd overall pick into why he was given such a long term deal.

It's ok if you live in a world of worry and fear. When looking at Subban and how he played, and how he wants to win, I was never worried or feared he would regress.

You have no arguments to prove your oblivious point of view. Keep trying, maybe you'll get lucky.
LOL? I am actually giving of the doubt to the management here, since signing a guy to a long-term contract at high salaries is something that requires a lot of reflexion upon. You are the ones who act like it was a no-brainer at the time.

Reality is, we chose the safe approach. So stop acting like you're living in a totally different world, and like you're a tough, innovative guy while hiding behind a message board. While being on charge, your decisions actually have a huge impact. And if the worst consequence is paying a Norris trophy winner what he's worth, then we've got problems way worst than that. Especially when where the management reportedly "failed", is by refusing to give an offensive d-man a long-term, over 5M/per deal when his best seasons were around 36/38 points. THAT is not proven value. Giving him over 5 would have been a bet.

You're also the one who brought Crosby into the equation to compare his discount (a self-assumed, voluntary discount while being the best player in the world) to Subban's (a guy who would,ve been paid 5M+ before even doing anything worthy of it).

By the way, it's spelled "Lidstrom", not Lindstrom. Learn how to spell the name of some players before you claim being right on all the line and how you would've took a better decision than Bergevin on that one. This is cute actually. I'd like to be able to lie to myself in such a fashion, and convincing myself I would've been ahead of things as the GM of this team. Bashing on a message board is easy. Spending multiple millions which don't belong to you on a guy who hasn't proved he's worth it at this point of his career is dumb, risky, and quite honestly, if you guys are making that big of a fuss about paying a NORRIS TROPHY WINNER what he's worth, you don't deserve any better than having the kind of team we've had for 2 decades now.

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07-18-2013, 01:46 PM
  #361
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Just because those D-men aren't signed to discounts, doesn't mean GMs wouldn't jump at the opportunity to get them at a discount. The Canadiens had that opportunity and blew it.

There was no indication that Subban's progression would stop, that's why people thought that 5 million for 6 years would be a great deal. They said this several times before his Norris campaign and they were proven right. Begervin said he wanted to "see things" and make "Subban a man" before committing. Shows lack of foresight and an inability to read the potential in a player imo, which is concerning as they also did the same thing to Eller at the begining of the season (not in terms of contract but in terms of playing time). It's concerning when Elliot Friedman reported that the reason Bergevin decided to hold on to Eller was because other GMs were extremely interested in him, so decided to hold on to him to see if Eller could show what other GMs were interested in.

Subban's current play at 5 million> Subban's current play at 7 million. For a GM who said that "every dollar against the cap counts," he blew a huge opportunity for savings that could be spent elsewhere. Moreover, when you consider the fact that Montreal almost always has to over pay to sign players, saving dollars is beneficial to the team.
The millions that have to be saved are elsewhere in the team. Not on a Norris trophy winner. Stop complaining about Subban's future speculated salary, and start revising how your favorite captain (Gionta) and this d-man we call a leader (Gorges) earn up to 9M together for being depth players.

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07-18-2013, 01:51 PM
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Hypothetical...If MB were to sign Subban to a 8yr 52M deal today (6.5M annually).

Would the bridge contract he gave him still be looked to as a mistake by those who are so against that bridge deal?

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07-18-2013, 01:51 PM
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LOL? I am actually giving of the doubt to the management here, since signing a guy to a long-term contract at high salaries is something that requires a lot of reflexion upon. You are the ones who act like it was a no-brainer at the time.

Reality is, we chose the safe approach. So stop acting like you're living in a totally different world, and like you're a tough, innovative guy while hiding behind a message board. While being on charge, your decisions actually have a huge impact. And if the worst consequence is paying a Norris trophy winner what he's worth, then we've got problems way worst than that. Especially when where the management reportedly "failed", is by refusing to give an offensive d-man a long-term, over 5M/per deal when his best seasons were around 36/38 points. THAT is not proven value. Giving him over 5 would have been a bet.

You're also the one who brought Crosby into the equation to compare his discount (a self-assumed, voluntary discount while being the best player in the world) to Subban's (a guy who would,ve been paid 5M+ before even doing anything worthy of it).

By the way, it's spelled "Lidstrom", not Lindstrom. Learn how to spell the name of some players before you claim being right on all the line and how you would've took a better decision than Bergevin on that one. This is cute actually. I'd like to be able to lie to myself in such a fashion, and convincing myself I would've been ahead of things as the GM of this team. Bashing on a message board is easy. Spending multiple millions which don't belong to you on a guy who hasn't proved he's worth it at this point of his career is dumb, risky, and quite honestly, if you guys are making that big of a fuss about paying a NORRIS TROPHY WINNER what he's worth, you don't deserve any better than having the kind of team we've had for 2 decades now.
Sorry buddy, but referring to everyone hiding behind a keyboard on a message board, well you are no different.

And yes I was right about Subban. I structured an offer that would pay Subban what is is worth as a Norris winner, but at the same time getting a discount because the team believed in him before he won the trophy.

Oops I spelt a name wrong, I hate when I do that. Thank you for correcting me.

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07-18-2013, 01:53 PM
  #364
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Hypothetical...If MB were to sign Subban to a 8yr 52M deal today (6.5M annually).

Would the bridge contract he gave him still be looked to as a mistake by those who are so against that bridge deal?
Yes, but only marginally. 6.5 is still a good great value for one of the top players in the NHL. He would be top 34 in cap hit in the league and top 10 for D men

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07-18-2013, 01:53 PM
  #365
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Just because those D-men aren't signed to discounts, doesn't mean GMs wouldn't jump at the opportunity to get them at a discount. The Canadiens had that opportunity and blew it.

There was no indication that Subban's progression would stop, that's why people thought that 5 million for 6 years would be a great deal. They said this several times before his Norris campaign and they were proven right. Begervin said he wanted to "see things" and make "Subban a man" before committing. Shows lack of foresight and an inability to read the potential in a player imo, which is concerning as they also did the same thing to Eller at the begining of the season (not in terms of contract but in terms of playing time). It's concerning when Elliot Friedman reported that the reason Bergevin decided to hold on to Eller was because other GMs were extremely interested in him, so decided to hold on to him to see if Eller could show what other GMs were interested in.

Subban's current play at 5 million> Subban's current play at 7 million. For a GM who said that "every dollar against the cap counts," he blew a huge opportunity for savings that could be spent elsewhere. Moreover, when you consider the fact that Montreal almost always has to over pay to sign players, saving dollars is beneficial to the team.
Besides, who the **** are you to judge NHL management teams' lack of foresight? What the hell are you doing exactly for a living? How many years have you even played hockey?

Your quote about Eller is pulled right out of your ass. This has nothing to do with anything. The only thing that was leaked to the media at the time was the fact that Eller was getting a lot of attention around the league. Nothing says Bergevin had any intention of dealing him away to begin with, you,re just talking out of your ass and suggesting things that aren't to begin with.

Quite honestly, it's kind of pathetic. That so many people on this board suggest they are better at judging a player's talent than actual NHL GMs, and all of that because Bergevin actually refused giving Subban a multi-year, 5M+ contract when there were huge question marks with his attitude throughout the league (how the hell is Bergevin supposed to know if those rumours are justified or not at this point?), and before he even PROVED he could be a consistent offensive weapon (no matter how good Subban is defensively, he's still an offensive d-man first and foremost...). Go do your homework guys. If you, as businessmen, really are opened to taking such risks with what we saw happening with Tyler Myers, like if you were spending monopoly money, I'm happy you're not managing the money I earn.

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07-18-2013, 01:56 PM
  #366
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LOL? I am actually giving of the doubt to the management here, since signing a guy to a long-term contract at high salaries is something that requires a lot of reflexion upon. You are the ones who act like it was a no-brainer at the time.

Reality is, we chose the safe approach. So stop acting like you're living in a totally different world, and like you're a tough, innovative guy while hiding behind a message board. While being on charge, your decisions actually have a huge impact. And if the worst consequence is paying a Norris trophy winner what he's worth, then we've got problems way worst than that. Especially when where the management reportedly "failed", is by refusing to give an offensive d-man a long-term, over 5M/per deal when his best seasons were around 36/38 points. THAT is not proven value. Giving him over 5 would have been a bet.

You're also the one who brought Crosby into the equation to compare his discount (a self-assumed, voluntary discount while being the best player in the world) to Subban's (a guy who would,ve been paid 5M+ before even doing anything worthy of it).

By the way, it's spelled "Lidstrom", not Lindstrom. Learn how to spell the name of some players before you claim being right on all the line and how you would've took a better decision than Bergevin on that one. This is cute actually. I'd like to be able to lie to myself in such a fashion, and convincing myself I would've been ahead of things as the GM of this team. Bashing on a message board is easy. Spending multiple millions which don't belong to you on a guy who hasn't proved he's worth it at this point of his career is dumb, risky, and quite honestly, if you guys are making that big of a fuss about paying a NORRIS TROPHY WINNER what he's worth, you don't deserve any better than having the kind of team we've had for 2 decades now.
He was already a top-pairing defenceman, in what world is that not worth 5mr? There was no "bet" even if had another season just like the one before he would've been worth 5m.

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07-18-2013, 01:57 PM
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Yes, but only marginally. 6.5 is still a good great value for one of the top players in the NHL. He would be top 34 in cap hit in the league and top 10 for D men
Interesting...either way, seems like alot of fussing over not much. Not one of you who is against that bridge deal has provided a scenario in which this bridge contract will negatively impact the Habs. Just alot of assumptions and conjecture, none of which makes it reality

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07-18-2013, 02:02 PM
  #368
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Interesting...either way, seems like alot of fussing over not much. Not one of you who is against that bridge deal has provided a scenario in which this bridge contract will negatively impact the Habs. Just alot of assumptions and conjecture, none of which makes it reality
People like crying for the sake of crying.

Just like Briere's acquisition. Ask people who are against it to tell you about one single scenario, this offseason, on the UFA market, that would've made the Habs a contender without sacrificing too much money/terms on the long-term. They'll come out empty-handed.

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07-18-2013, 02:05 PM
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I don't see what's wrong with trying to control the costs of a players salary when you have most of the negotiation leverage. These days, money is being given to players too soon IMO. It's throwing the salary structure way out of whack.

Now I somewhat agree that Subban is a different case...but I like the approach of using the same template of negotiations for all of our players. As long as the GM is consistent with his approach, that's all I can ask for.

For years we've all complained about Gainey/Gauthier's penchant for dishing out cash like it was candy, without any plan. Now we finally have a GM who is showing a bit of restraint (though I wish he would of shown the same restraint with Desharnais/Bouillon) and we want it to be the other way?

Given the fact we're just coming off a lockout, and next year the cap is going down...I think it was smart to take a prudent approach to understand the financial landscape of the NHL, especially as a new GM.

I completely disagreed with MB's hard stance and I still don't understand why it needed a holdout to get done...but now, looking back. I absolutely think it was the right thing to do.

I don't personally have an issue with a Norris caliber dman being paid like one of the top Dmen in the league. I have way more of an issue with a borderline NHL player like Bouillon making 1.5M per year, I think those types of deals are the real 'cap killers'.

ELC's and 2nd contracts are the only time where teams are the one's holding the hammer, I don't blame them for wanting to take advantage of it. Yes Subban had to swallow a bitter pill, but I think he finally came around to understanding that from a financial standpoint, he would make out way better by taking a bridge deal now. Just like i'm sure MB was well aware that in the end, it may cost him more. But it's a bet I don't think he could lose.

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07-18-2013, 02:08 PM
  #370
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Interesting...either way, seems like alot of fussing over not much. Not one of you who is against that bridge deal has provided a scenario in which this bridge contract will negatively impact the Habs. Just alot of assumptions and conjecture, none of which makes it reality
If we are talking possible scenario then how's this. Subban holds a grudge about getting stiffed in the last contract negotiations and doesn't sign long term, goes to arbitration, gets his 7-8m and then become UFA. Personally if my boss screwed me out of money simply because I had no other options, and then a couple years later I have tons of options I'd probably leave. Hopefully Subban is willing to be a bigger man then me.

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07-18-2013, 02:14 PM
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If we are talking possible scenario then how's this. Subban holds a grudge about getting stiffed in the last contract negotiations and doesn't sign long term, goes to arbitration, gets his 7-8m and then become UFA. Personally if my boss screwed me out of money simply because I had no other options, and then a couple years later I have tons of options I'd probably leave. Hopefully Subban is willing to be a bigger man then me.
Well if that's the case...then so be it. The Habs will have a very valuable asset to trade.

Of course, I don't hope it ends like this. But if it does...what can you do?

But for argument's sake, I don't believe that Subban will hold a grudge over negotiations. It's business, I don't think players/agents/GM's are as emotional as fans when it comes to that kind of stuff.

As long as MB's next contract proposal reflects what he promised Subban when he signed him to that bridge deal, there's no reason for him to hold a grudge.

Of course, if MB tries to stiff him again...then that's on him and Subban will have every right to look at his own options at that point.

But again, ELC's and 2nd contracts are the only time a team has the hammer during negotiations. I don't blame them for taking advantage of it.

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07-18-2013, 02:17 PM
  #372
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The millions that have to be saved are elsewhere in the team. Not on a Norris trophy winner. Stop complaining about Subban's future speculated salary, and start revising how your favorite captain (Gionta) and this d-man we call a leader (Gorges) earn up to 9M together for being depth players.
The overpaying of Gionta and Gorges has nothing to do with whether or not the bridge deal was a good idea, why you keep bringing it up I have no idea. The fact is, we could have signed Subban to a discount, which no matter what you argue, is only beneficial in a cap world. Sure, Gionta and Gorges are overpayed, but that has nothing to do with Subban. It's a stupid argument and a crappy justification for why the savings don't matter in the case of Subban.

Also, Gionta isn't my favorite captain, you may want to relax a bit HiggsBozon and stop taking shots as posters, it just makes you look petty and your arguments thin.

It's also funny how you consistently whine about Gionta's salary and cap hit, but then go on to defend Briere who is older, a lesser player in terms of versatility and who had only two more points than Gionta had goals last season, and who like Gionta is a "depth player" at this point in his career.

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07-18-2013, 02:21 PM
  #373
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If you have a long term vision then it's very easy to predict not needing cap space in the 2 years following a last place finish. Especially since your stated intention is to build through the draft, i.e not go out and spend on UFAs.
Really? If it's that easy to predict, you must have predicted that the Habs won the division ahead of the Bruins and finished 2nd in the conference, right?

And you're forgetting one (important) part of Bergevin's quote: Building through draft AND trades.

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If we are talking possible scenario then how's this. Subban holds a grudge about getting stiffed in the last contract negotiations and doesn't sign long term, goes to arbitration, gets his 7-8m and then become UFA. Personally if my boss screwed me out of money simply because I had no other options, and then a couple years later I have tons of options I'd probably leave. Hopefully Subban is willing to be a bigger man then me.
Yep. Just like people were saying the same about Tomas Plekanec going to arbitration. Funny how that works, isn't it?

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07-18-2013, 02:24 PM
  #374
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Really? If it's that easy to predict, you must have predicted that the Habs won the division ahead of the Bruins and finished 2nd in the conference, right?

And you're forgetting one (important) part of Bergevin's quote: Building through draft AND trades.


Yep. Just like people were saying the same about Tomas Plekanec going to arbitration. Funny how that works, isn't it?
It's business...not personal.

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07-18-2013, 02:34 PM
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Interesting...either way, seems like alot of fussing over not much. Not one of you who is against that bridge deal has provided a scenario in which this bridge contract will negatively impact the Habs. Just alot of assumptions and conjecture, none of which makes it reality
Because that is the future. We would have to speculate another NHL season and another NHL offseason, which is just too many variables.

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