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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-18-2013, 03:37 PM
  #376
HiggsBozon
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The overpaying of Gionta and Gorges has nothing to do with whether or not the bridge deal was a good idea, why you keep bringing it up I have no idea. The fact is, we could have signed Subban to a discount, which no matter what you argue, is only beneficial in a cap world. Sure, Gionta and Gorges are overpayed, but that has nothing to do with Subban. It's a stupid argument and a crappy justification for why the savings don't matter in the case of Subban.

Also, Gionta isn't my favorite captain, you may want to relax a bit HiggsBozon and stop taking shots as posters, it just makes you look petty and your arguments thin.

It's also funny how you consistently whine about Gionta's salary and cap hit, but then go on to defend Briere who is older, a lesser player in terms of versatility and who had only two more points than Gionta had goals last season, and who like Gionta is a "depth player" at this point in his career.
If it has nothing to do with other players' salary, then why do you keep bringing up the problem? If the other players' salary isn't a problem, then I guess it means there's no reason to make a big fuss over this to begin with, right? Because, you know, it,s gotta mean the team is in good shape anyway...

As for Briere, I don't want to get in this conversation in this thread, but if you really want to talk about it:

Not only is he earning 1M less than the other guy, he's also capable of actually handling the puck and brings much needed puck-skills to a lineup that has next to none to begin with. He also bring playoffs experience, and for all his "failures", and the fact people keep bringing up he's washed up offensively because of his last TWO seasons;

Briere had 22 goals, 43 assists and 65 points in his last two seasons (104 games) which is a pace of 51 points over 82 games.
Gionta had 22 goals, 19 assists and 41 points in his last two seasons (79 games) which is a pace of 42 points over 82 games.

So yeah. Offensively they're nothing alike. And knowing Briere just had his worst season in YEARS, I would not put both of these players under the same category. Briere is twice the playmaker and the player Gionta is with the puck. As for his play without the puck, I can't recall of one single occasion where Gionta actually regained possession of the puck to begin with. For all what Briere won't bring on the forecheck, Gionta isn't bringing it neither.

What I also know, is that while Gionta and Gorges got respectively 5 and 6 years each on their new contracts, we actually gave Briere just two years at a lower salary than Gionta, and about the same salary as Gorges, who's highly inefficient in all aspects of the game minus shot-blocking.

I don't think anybody here would be complaining if Brian or Josh were signed on a two years contract to begin with neither.

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07-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Because that is the future. We would have to speculate another NHL season and another NHL offseason, which is just too many variables.
But like I said...it doesn't make it reality.

I get the premise of having cap flexibility, really I do...but let's be real, the Habs will always be a team that spends near the cap.

Real salary cap flexibility, at least IMO, is having valuable assets and the Habs are slowly but surely starting to build that. Subban's next deal won't prevent their flexibility.

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07-18-2013, 03:46 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
But like I said...it doesn't make it reality.

I get the premise of having cap flexibility, really I do...but let's be real, the Habs will always be a team that spends near the cap.

Real salary cap flexibility, at least IMO, is having valuable assets and the Habs are slowly but surely starting to build that. Subban's next deal won't prevent their flexibility.
I was never arguing that his next deal will prevent flexibility, I was merely saying they could have even more with a great deal. I hope MB can convince him that 6.5 is fair value, but look at Letangs deal... I worry that Karlssons deal will no longer be the stepping stone, as Letangs deal changes the landscape.


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07-18-2013, 03:47 PM
  #379
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If it has nothing to do with other players' salary, then why do you keep bringing up the problem? If the other players' salary isn't a problem, then I guess it means there's no reason to make a big fuss over this to begin with, right? Because, you know, it,s gotta mean the team is in good shape anyway...
I don't see why I need to bring in Gionta and Gorges in order to talk about Subban's bridge contract. I don't see the connection here. You need to do a better job of demonstrating why I need to speak of Gionta and Gorges in order to talk about Subban. Fact is, in a cap world, savings are important. Other players salaries are important, but I don't see why I have to look at those two in particular. There are a few overpaid players on this team, Price is one, Desharnais is another, Briere is another, why you insist on Gionta and Gorges is beyond...well actually it isn't, your irrational hate for the two is well documented here.

Giving Subban 5 million last season would have given him his worth at the moment in time and would have been a discounted deal in the future for a player who's potential hadn't been reached yet. And like most had predicted, Subban improved leaps and bounds. Instead, we low-balled and underpaid him last year in order to get a short term discount which demonstrates a severe lack of foresight. Not something you want to see in a new GM.



Quote:
As for Briere, I don't want to get in this conversation in this thread, but if you really want to talk about it:

Not only is he earning 1M less than the other guy, he's also capable of actually handling the puck and brings much needed puck-skills to a lineup that has next to none to begin with. He also bring playoffs experience, and for all his "failures", and the fact people keep bringing up he's washed up offensively because of his last TWO seasons

Briere had 22 goals, 43 assists and 65 points in his last two seasons (104 games) which is a pace of 51 points over 82 games.
Gionta had 22 goals, 19 assists and 41 points in his last two seasons (79 games) which is a pace of 42 points over 82 games.
So essentially, we got an older, less versatile player, for 1 million dollars less, who needs soft minutes to produce and scored the same amount of goals as Gionta in 25 more games.
Quote:
So yeah. Offensively they're nothing alike.
You're right, they are not. One player needs babying and sheltered minutes to produce less goals than an other player who plays tougher minutes and scores more.

Quote:
And knowing Briere just had his worst season in YEARS, I would not put both of these players under the same category. Briere is twice the playmaker and the player Gionta is with the puck. As for his play without the puck, I can't recall of one single occasion where Gionta actually regained possession of the puck to begin with. For all what Briere won't bring on the forecheck, Gionta isn't bringing it neither.
Gionta is twice the player Briere is without the puck. He's also better on the forecheck than Briere is despite being smaller.

Quote:
What I also know, is that while Gionta and Gorges got respectively 5 and 6 years each on their new contracts, we actually gave Briere just two years at a lower salary than Gionta, and about the same salary as Gorges, who's highly inefficient in all aspects of the game minus shot-blocking.
We gave 4 million dollars to a lesser, older and declining player. Gionta is still producing at more or less the same career output and goals. Also, Gionta doesn't have the benefit of being a UFA to renegotiate his contract status. He was signed 4 years ago. Giving Briere 4 million at this point in his career is like giving 4 million dollars to Gionta next season and something tells me you wouldn't like that.

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I don't think anybody here would be complaining if Brian or Josh were signed on a two years contract to begin with neither.
Doubtful. The only way people wouldn't complain about Gorges and Gionta is if both were 6'4 and would fight occasionally, despite nothing else about their game changing.

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07-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I was never arguing that his next deal will prevent flexibility, I was merely saying they could have even more with a great deal. I hope MB can convince him that 6.5 is fair value, but like at Letangs deal... I worry that Karlssons deal will no longer be the stepping stone, as Letangs deal changes the landscape.
Then what?

If Pittsburgh can afford Crosby, Malkin AND Letang, as well as Fleury, Kunitz and James Neal, I don't think paying PK and Price at over 6M/per deals is the end of the world, is a cause for concern.

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07-18-2013, 03:50 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Hypothetical...If MB were to sign Subban to a 8yr 52M deal today (6.5M annually).

Would the bridge contract he gave him still be looked to as a mistake by those who are so against that bridge deal?
That's what I hope Bergevin is offering right now. If Subban signs, it's 10 years of him at a very reasonable price. Much better than 25M/5y, IMO. 25M/5y makes sense if you think the habs will contend within that time frame AND you are ready to dismantle the team when raises are due.

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07-18-2013, 03:54 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Then what?

If Pittsburgh can afford Crosby, Malkin AND Letang, as well as Fleury, Kunitz and James Neal, I don't think paying PK and Price at over 6M/per deals is the end of the world, is a cause for concern.
Who said it's the end of the world? The argument has, and always will be, that MB missed the boat on getting Subban under market value.

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07-18-2013, 04:05 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I don't see why I need to bring in Gionta and Gorges in order to talk about Subban's bridge contract. I don't see the connection here. You need to do a better job of demonstrating why I need to speak of Gionta and Gorges in order to talk about Subban. Fact is, in a cap world, savings are important. Other players salaries are important, but I don't see why I have to look at those two in particular. There are a few overpaid players on this team, Price is one, Desharnais is another, Briere is another, why you insist on Gionta and Gorges is beyond...well actually it isn't, your irrational hate for the two is well documented here.

Giving Subban 5 million last season would have given him his worth at the moment in time and would have been a discounted deal for a player who's potential hadn't been reached yet. Instead, we low-balled and underpaid him to get a short term discount which demonstrates a severe lack of foresight. Not something you want to see in a new GM.





So essentially, we got an older, less versatile player, for 1 million dollars less, who needs soft minutes to produce and scored the same amount of goals as Gionta in 25 more games.


You're right, they are not. One player needs babying and sheltered minutes to produce less goals than an other player who plays tougher minutes and scores more.



Gionta is twice the player Briere is without the puck. He's also better on the forecheck than Briere is despite being smaller.


We gave 4 million dollars to a lesser, older and declining player. Gionta is still producing at more or less the same career output and goals. Also, Gionta doesn't have the benefit of being a UFA to renegotiate his contract status. He was signed 4 years ago. Giving Briere 4 million at this point in his career is like giving 4 million dollars to Gionta next season and something tells me you wouldn't like that.



Doubtful. The only people wouldn't complain about Gorges and Gionta is both were 6'4 and would fight occasionally, despite nothing else about their game changing.
Why the shot once again at physicality? You really don't like it, do you? Frustrated we get our ***** kicked repeatedly at this game? Of course, those who would like their team to match up other teams' physicality should feel the shame. Makes sense coming from you. Keep convincing yourself.

Gorges and Gionta are signed at a combined 9M, one of those two is earning his money for 5 more years. Yet, you have no problem with that, but you have a problem with Subban possibly getting 2-2.5M more than he would SPECULATIVELY had earned back then, by taking a risk. You're the one who wants to make a career in administration (or so I read somewhere)? Jeez... You better keep reading.

Like I said in another thread, for a player who's that good without the puck, he(Gionta) sure sucks at forechecking efficiently, retrieving loose pucks, maintaining offensive counter-attacks and just keeping a play alive without giving the puck away to the opponent with his ridiculous slap shot. The only reason why Gionta got "tougher" minutes is because he was paired with Plekanec to begin with. Pleks is the one who manages tougher minutes and who has defensive assignments. Stop kidding yourself, put Plekanec away from this line, and I swear Gionta would struggle even more. Hell, give him easier matchups, and it would not even reflect on his numbers.

Speak about his goal totals as much as you want also, it's pathetic that a player playing in so many power plays and so many minutes as a whole doesn't get any more assists as a whole. Especially when playing with our best centerman who lead this team in goals for a huge chunk of the season.

Briere is being overpaid? How do you know that? We weren't even the team who offered the most. Up to 16 teams lined up after him getting bought out.

And Desharnais? I get the guy isn't being liked for some obvious reason around here, but come on. 3.5M. You might not like the signing, but for a proven 50 points guy, PP specialist with some playmaking abilities, who proved to have solid chemestry with your best offensive player out there... I don't think it's outrageously high. Not to the point where it puts the financial future of the team in limbo.

As for Price, look around, analyze the contract. It was the price to pay. Not the guy's biggest fan, but going into this season, he was easily our most proven asset and our best player.

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07-18-2013, 04:10 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I was never arguing that his next deal will prevent flexibility, I was merely saying they could have even more with a great deal. I hope MB can convince him that 6.5 is fair value, but look at Letangs deal... I worry that Karlssons deal will no longer be the stepping stone, as Letangs deal changes the landscape.
and i'm mearly saying that added flexibility does not necessarily equal success...a team like the Habs is not just going to sit there with dead money in their pockets. They're going to spend it regardless.

Perfect example again is the Ryder/Cole swap, which was later negated by the contract handed out to Desharnais a few weeks later.

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07-18-2013, 04:11 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Who said it's the end of the world? The argument has, and always will be, that MB missed the boat on getting Subban under market value.
We don't know that yet...that can only be determined once Subban signs his subsequent deal. Again, if MB can sign Subban to a 8yr contract at a 6.5M average, that beats the 5yr 25M contract that people keep speculating about here.

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07-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Hypothetical...If MB were to sign Subban to a 8yr 52M deal today (6.5M annually).

Would the bridge contract he gave him still be looked to as a mistake by those who are so against that bridge deal?
There's one thing that never changed, it's that people said we could have signed PK to a cheaper deal then wtv he's going to get.
It never was a big fuss, heck I even wrote it in my post many times. It's just that some refuse to admit it was the wrong move despite it being pretty simple.
Hence my example about discounted cars. If you can get this brand new beemer for 10K less, then you take it, even if you can still afford it if it was 10K more expensive.

How big of a mistake is really what's unknown.

The heated conversation starts when people try to argue for the bridge deal. Trying to argue that locking out your star player so he can get a well undervalued contract for 1 1/2 years is actually a good thing. Or that PK is where MaxPac-Price-etc were at the end of their ELC. Or that PK could have been complacent.
All these stupid excuses in order to justify what is seriously easy to admit.
If you have a chance to take PK at a discounted price, you take it. It's clear, it's obvious, no need to make a fuss over it.

If PK signs for 5M, then people are going to wonder what the heck was the hold out about. If he signs for 6.5M, then I'm gonna wonder how much was PK actually asking for last time, 4M? We will never know. All we can agree on is that no matter the amount, PK will cost more.

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07-18-2013, 04:16 PM
  #387
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Pk and his dad are going to be on 690 at 430ish

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07-18-2013, 04:17 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Well if that's the case...then so be it. The Habs will have a very valuable asset to trade.

Of course, I don't hope it ends like this. But if it does...what can you do?

But for argument's sake, I don't believe that Subban will hold a grudge over negotiations. It's business, I don't think players/agents/GM's are as emotional as fans when it comes to that kind of stuff.

As long as MB's next contract proposal reflects what he promised Subban when he signed him to that bridge deal, there's no reason for him to hold a grudge.

Of course, if MB tries to stiff him again...then that's on him and Subban will have every right to look at his own options at that point.

But again, ELC's and 2nd contracts are the only time a team has the hammer during negotiations. I don't blame them for taking advantage of it.
If you show faith in him and not force him to sign for the lowest possible amount it's a much less likely that he will want to leave. Why do we want to use a Hammer on our good players, it makes more sense to build up loyalty so we can get hometown discounts when they are in their prime.


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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Really? If it's that easy to predict, you must have predicted that the Habs won the division ahead of the Bruins and finished 2nd in the conference, right?

And you're forgetting one (important) part of Bergevin's quote: Building through draft AND trades.


Yep. Just like people were saying the same about Tomas Plekanec going to arbitration. Funny how that works, isn't it?
If your plan is to build through the draft regardless of the team's success you don't need to near the salary ceiling and therefore cap space isn't a problem. That's why you can predict not needing it right away. The 2nd place finish hasn't changed MB's plans in anyway which means we would have cap space. And not that it matters but I was expecting us to be in the playoffs by a comfortable margin, and if I knew Markov would be healthy and productive I would expect a neck and neck race for the division with Boston.

When did Plekanec go to arbitration? He may have filed but I don't think he ever actually went.

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07-18-2013, 04:27 PM
  #389
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PK and his dad will be on TSN690 a little after 4:30 for those interested.

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07-18-2013, 04:28 PM
  #390
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Pk and his dad are going to be on 690 at 430ish
Beat me to it

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07-18-2013, 04:28 PM
  #391
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Why the shot once again at physicality? You really don't like it, do you? Frustrated we get our ***** kicked repeatedly at this game? Of course, those who would like their team to match up other teams' physicality should feel the shame. Makes sense coming from you. Keep convincing yourself.
If this is the narrative you want to use, sure go ahead. Personally, I'm not insecure to the point where the team I watch frustrates me when they lose physical battles. Also, if you think it's because I "don't like" physicality, if that makes you feel good, again use that narrative.

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Gorges and Gionta are signed at a combined 9M, one of those two is earning his money for 5 more years. Yet, you have no problem with that, but you have a problem with Subban possibly getting 2-2.5M more than he would SPECULATIVELY had earned back then, by taking a risk. You're the one who wants to make a career in administration (or so I read somewhere)? Jeez... You better keep reading.
Again, I don't see the link. First, your post assumes that I don't think Gorges is overpaid. Sure he is overpaid, but he got what he would get on the open market. There was no chance at a discount with him, if we did, I would be as disappointed. But we didn't. His case and Subban's case aren't comparable, neither is Gionta's who signed as a UFA. Again, I don't see why not discussing those precludes any discussion about possibly getting Subban at a discount. The connection isn't clear, you need to a better job at finding and articulating a connection, if there is one at all.

Also, there is no speculation. McKenzie, Kypreos and Dreger all pretty much confirmed those numbers.

I don't want a career in administration. I am doing a Masters in Political Science, maybe one day a PhD so that I can teach in a university.

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Like I said in another thread, for a player who's that good without the puck, he(Gionta) sure sucks at forechecking efficiently, retrieving loose pucks, maintaining offensive counter-attacks and just keeping a play alive without giving the puck away to the opponent with his ridiculous slap shot. The only reason why Gionta got "tougher" minutes is because he was paired with Plekanec to begin with. Pleks is the one who manages tougher minutes and who has defensive assignments. Stop kidding yourself, put Plekanec away from this line, and I swear Gionta would struggle even more. Hell, give him easier matchups, and it would not even reflect on his numbers.
How would Gionta struggle even more? He's always been an excellent two-way player, going back to his New Jersey days. If he was terrible at it, he wouldn't be able to keep up with Plekanec and would look out of place. The numbers show his effectiveness. Therrien praised Gionta for his defensive abilities last season and said that he and Plekanec were a huge part of their defensive success.

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Speak about his goal totals as much as you want also, it's pathetic that a player playing in so many power plays and so many minutes as a whole doesn't get any more assists as a whole. Especially when playing with our best centerman who lead this team in goals for a huge chunk of the season.
Gionta has never been an assist man. He's always been a goal scorer and last season produced similar to his career output. He's been an excellent goal scorer since signing his contract here. That's like getting mad that Alex Tanguay doesn't score 35 goals a year.

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Briere is being overpaid? How do you know that? We weren't even the team who offered the most. Up to 16 teams lined up after him getting bought out.
For a guy who just got bought out, who has shown to be declining, who is old, I'd say 4 million dollars is an overpayment. The fact that it is short-term balances it off.

Quote:
And Desharnais? I get the guy isn't being liked for some obvious reason around here, but come on. 3.5M. You might not like the signing, but for a proven 50 points guy, PP specialist with some playmaking abilities, who proved to have solid chemestry with your best offensive player out there... I don't think it's outrageously high. Not to the point where it puts the financial future of the team in limbo.
Desharnais has proved nothing and got a higher cap hit and longer-term contract that PK Subban who has been the team's number one D-man since his call up in the 09 playoffs. Desharnais has done nothing to justify that contract outside of one season.

Quote:
As for Price, look around, analyze the contract. It was the price to pay. Not the guy's biggest fan, but going into this season, he was easily our most proven asset and our best player.
Price is also unproven. 6.5 million is a lot to pay for potential and I am a huge Price fan. Subban has proven more in a shorter amount of time than most of these players and he is the only one who got low balled. The team had the opportunity to get him at a discount deal and missed the boat because of ideology. It's a blunder however you slice it.


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07-18-2013, 04:29 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's one thing that never changed, it's that people said we could have signed PK to a cheaper deal then wtv he's going to get.
It never was a big fuss, heck I even wrote it in my post many times. It's just that some refuse to admit it was the wrong move despite it being pretty simple.
Hence my example about discounted cars. If you can get this brand new beemer for 10K less, then you take it, even if you can still afford it if it was 10K more expensive.

How big of a mistake is really what's unknown.

The heated conversation starts when people try to argue for the bridge deal. Trying to argue that locking out your star player so he can get a well undervalued contract for 1 1/2 years is actually a good thing. Or that PK is where MaxPac-Price-etc were at the end of their ELC. Or that PK could have been complacent.
All these stupid excuses in order to justify what is seriously easy to admit.
If you have a chance to take PK at a discounted price, you take it. It's clear, it's obvious, no need to make a fuss over it.

If PK signs for 5M, then people are going to wonder what the heck was the hold out about. If he signs for 6.5M, then I'm gonna wonder how much was PK actually asking for last time, 4M? We will never know. All we can agree on is that no matter the amount, PK will cost more.
I think it's too early to determine that...depending on the next deal Subban signs, they might actually sign him at better value.

I don't like speculating on numbers, I don't believe anyone truly knows what PK wants except PK and his agent.

But let's just use the reported rumors at face value

What would you prefer?

5 years at 5.5M/yr (25M)...followed by another deal at let's say 8 years at 8.5M/yr
(68M)...(and really, who knows what a player like Subban will be worth in his prime, i'm being conservative here)

or

2 years at 2.85M (5.75M aka bridge deal he just got)...followed by another deal at 8 years 7.5M/yr (60M)

Giving PK a 5 year deal last January takes him right into his prime UFA years...THAT'S when it's REALLY going to cost you big money to keep him. TODAY, is when you need to take advantage of Subban's RFA years because that's when his has less leverage (Norris withstanding)

I happen to think the 2nd option is probably smarter business...though both options involve SOME risk

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07-18-2013, 04:35 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
and i'm mearly saying that added flexibility does not necessarily equal success...a team like the Habs is not just going to sit there with dead money in their pockets. They're going to spend it regardless.

Perfect example again is the Ryder/Cole swap, which was later negated by the contract handed out to Desharnais a few weeks later.
I understand that, but having more let's you have more options. It's not about having it and doing nothing with it, but if you have 2 million you sign x player and if you have 3 million you can get y player.

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
We don't know that yet...that can only be determined once Subban signs his subsequent deal. Again, if MB can sign Subban to a 8yr contract at a 6.5M average, that beats the 5yr 25M contract that people keep speculating about here.
Well this is what I wanted:

2013 ---------> 4,000,000$ (end of the season he is 24)
2013-2014 ---> 4,500,000$ (end of the season he is 25)
2014-2015 ---> 5,000,000$ (end of the season he is 26)
2015-2016 ---> 6,500,000$ (end of the season he is 27)
2016-2017 ---> 7,000,000$ (end of the season he is 28)
2018-2019 ---> 7,500,000$ (end of the season he is 29)
Cap hit of 5,750,000

To stay in compliance with the 35% year to year rule + the 50% of lowest to highest, this is the deal I would offer
2019-2020 ---> 7,000,000$ (end of the season he is 30)
2020-2021 ---> 7,000,000$ (end of the season he is 31)
2021-2022 ---> 5,600,000$ (end of the season he is 32)
2022-2023 ---> 5,600,000$ (end of the season he is 33)
2023-2024 ---> 5,600,000$ (end of the season he is 34)
2024-2025 ---> 3,700,000$ (end of the season he is 35)
2025-2026 ---> 3,700,000$ (end of the season he is 36)
Cap hit of 5,457,000

The later years would be different depending on the cap and inflation.
It's just a rough outline of what I had in mind.

Subban needs to have a long term deal for his next contract, I think we all agree. I do fear it will be 7+ cap hit. An 8 year extension brings him into and out of his prime. After his next contract, he will be on the down side of his career and should be able to be had for cheaper.

All my arguments are based on these figures, and not the 5 years - 25 million. (I understand that is what was discussed, but negotiations could of happened and turned out in almost infinite possibilities)

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07-18-2013, 04:44 PM
  #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Who said it's the end of the world? The argument has, and always will be, that MB missed the boat on getting Subban under market value.
First of all, he didn't miss the boat. That's you guys' opinion on the matter. Had he folded to Subban's demands, at what price would it be though? And I'm not talking cap hit here, but future young stars expecting to skip the bridge contract. Galchenyuk is next. He'll now be expecting a bridge contract.

Cap will be tight next year and Subban is a deal. Cap won't be tight the year after due to Gio and Marky possibly being off the books, and the cap going back up.

Whether people want to admit it or not, whether they agree with it or not, whether they argue their point until they're blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Bergevin's decision was fully justifiable and that's what we're saying.

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07-18-2013, 04:54 PM
  #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
First of all, he didn't miss the boat. That's you guys' opinion on the matter. Had he folded to Subban's demands, at what price would it be though? And I'm not talking cap hit here, but future young stars expecting to skip the bridge contract. Galchenyuk is next. He'll now be expecting a bridge contract.

Cap will be tight next year and Subban is a deal. Cap won't be tight the year after due to Gio and Marky possibly being off the books, and the cap going back up.

Whether people want to admit it or not, whether they agree with it or not, whether they argue their point until they're blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Bergevin's decision was fully justifiable and that's what we're saying.
First off Subban accepting the bridge deal will have no impact on what Galchenyuk and his agent ask for.

Second, if we lose Gionta & Markov because we need to make room for PK's salary then we are worse off as a team. Whether you like to admit it or not those are two very important pieces to a team that most argue is not even a real contender yet. Someone has to replace those minutes, and I guess do better since we aren't even a contender. Since established players will cost as much or more we are talking prospects, and most prospects don't reach their potential so we are likely going to end up even further from being a contender.

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07-18-2013, 05:20 PM
  #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
First of all, he didn't miss the boat. That's you guys' opinion on the matter. Had he folded to Subban's demands, at what price would it be though? And I'm not talking cap hit here, but future young stars expecting to skip the bridge contract. Galchenyuk is next. He'll now be expecting a bridge contract.

Cap will be tight next year and Subban is a deal. Cap won't be tight the year after due to Gio and Marky possibly being off the books, and the cap going back up.

Whether people want to admit it or not, whether they agree with it or not, whether they argue their point until they're blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Bergevin's decision was fully justifiable and that's what we're saying.
He missed the boat and it is clear that it's no longer opinion but fact. Subban won the Norris. He now will command higher than he did last offseason.

It would of been tighter, but Cube didn't need 1.5, DD didn't deserve 3.5 after the pathetic year he had. (He played 2 NHL seasons, 1 was great, the other was sub par 1 year 2 million is what he should of got, prove himself again).

Keep believe that because this is what happened, that is was the best way. It clearly isn't.

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07-18-2013, 05:40 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There's one thing that never changed, it's that people said we could have signed PK to a cheaper deal then wtv he's going to get.
It never was a big fuss, heck I even wrote it in my post many times. It's just that some refuse to admit it was the wrong move despite it being pretty simple.
Hence my example about discounted cars. If you can get this brand new beemer for 10K less, then you take it, even if you can still afford it if it was 10K more expensive.

How big of a mistake is really what's unknown.

The heated conversation starts when people try to argue for the bridge deal. Trying to argue that locking out your star player so he can get a well undervalued contract for 1 1/2 years is actually a good thing. Or that PK is where MaxPac-Price-etc were at the end of their ELC. Or that PK could have been complacent.
All these stupid excuses in order to justify what is seriously easy to admit.
If you have a chance to take PK at a discounted price, you take it. It's clear, it's obvious, no need to make a fuss over it.

If PK signs for 5M, then people are going to wonder what the heck was the hold out about. If he signs for 6.5M, then I'm gonna wonder how much was PK actually asking for last time, 4M? We will never know. All we can agree on is that no matter the amount, PK will cost more.
really ?

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07-18-2013, 05:42 PM
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
First of all, he didn't miss the boat. That's you guys' opinion on the matter. Had he folded to Subban's demands, at what price would it be though?
He missed the boat.

Not only did he miss the boat, he's lucky that PK didn't tell him to jump in the lake and demand a trade. Still can't believe folks are defending him signing at 2.8 and a million less than Gorges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
And I'm not talking cap hit here, but future young stars expecting to skip the bridge contract. Galchenyuk is next. He'll now be expecting a bridge contract.
If Galchenyuk plays anywhere close to as good as PK did, then he deserves to skip the bridge contract. If we can get him at 5 for 25, then I hope to hell that MB learns from his mistakes and if he does it again, he deserves to be tarred and feathered.

Because next time around the player might actually tell us to **** off and nobody in the league would blame him. You're seriously suggesting that MB should do this AGAIN? If Galchenyuk plays awesome for us we should shove 2.8 down his throat too?

?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Cap will be tight next year and Subban is a deal. Cap won't be tight the year after due to Gio and Marky possibly being off the books, and the cap going back up.

Whether people want to admit it or not, whether they agree with it or not, whether they argue their point until they're blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that Bergevin's decision was fully justifiable and that's what we're saying.
It wasn't justifiable.

2.8 is not justifiable at all. There's no way that you can reasonably argue that this was a good decision. It would be one thing if we were on the verge of a cup and needed the cap space now... maybe then I could see shoving it down his throat. But we were coming off 15th in the East...

The only thing we can really be happy about here is that he didn't demand a trade. It could've been a hell of a lot worse for us. And Meehan is a total shark. I have little doubt that he was telling PK to play hardball... It's great that PK is a Hab fan and was willing to be screwed over to stay here. MB played with fire and fortunately we didn't get scorched (that will come in PK's next negotiations no doubt.) But that approach probably won't work with Gally. If he plays well and we try to make him knuckle under the way we did with PK, I could see him walking. And that would be a real disaster.

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07-18-2013, 05:42 PM
  #399
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Bergevin missed an opportunity. Some will agree, some won't.

In the end, this can be one reason why we're going to look back and say Bergevin was a bad GM, or he'll make great moves to make us forget about how badly he dealt with this situation as a rookie GM.

Every GM will make some bad moves and some good moves. I just hope the sum of his total moves is a net gain. He has revamped the management and brought in a lot of hockey minds and hopefully this will lead to something. But other than that I'm not impressed.

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Old
07-18-2013, 05:44 PM
  #400
ECWHSWI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
He missed the boat and it is clear that it's no longer opinion but fact. Subban won the Norris. He now will command higher than he did last offseason.

It would of been tighter, but Cube didn't need 1.5, DD didn't deserve 3.5 after the pathetic year he had. (He played 2 NHL seasons, 1 was great, the other was sub par 1 year 2 million is what he should of got, prove himself again).

Keep believe that because this is what happened, that is was the best way. It clearly isn't.
no, what is clear is that you're stating opinions as facts, THAT is a fact

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