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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-18-2013, 05:56 PM
  #401
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
He missed the boat and it is clear that it's no longer opinion but fact. Subban won the Norris. He now will command higher than he did last offseason.

It would of been tighter, but Cube didn't need 1.5, DD didn't deserve 3.5 after the pathetic year he had. (He played 2 NHL seasons, 1 was great, the other was sub par 1 year 2 million is what he should of got, prove himself again).

Keep believe that because this is what happened, that is was the best way. It clearly isn't.
In regards to opinion vs fact...

Some opinions are a hell of a lot more valid than others. If we traded PK for Chris Neil is this in FACT a bad trade before we watch them this season? Well, maybe it's a matter of opinion for some people but I'd say it's a pretty stark example of a case where our GM did something wrong.
That's pretty much the case with what MB did with Subban. Folks can speculate all they want on whether or not the lowball motivated him (I highly doubt this) but it's conjecture. The fact of the matter is that we paid the guy less than Josh Gorges money when he was looking for a long term deal. And that's something that I think we'll regret over the next several years. Folks can try to dress it up all they want but they're still sitting there putting lipstick on a pig trying to make it look pretty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Bergevin missed an opportunity. Some will agree, some won't.

In the end, this can be one reason why we're going to look back and say Bergevin was a bad GM, or he'll make great moves to make us forget about how badly he dealt with this situation as a rookie GM.

Every GM will make some bad moves and some good moves. I just hope the sum of his total moves is a net gain. He has revamped the management and brought in a lot of hockey minds and hopefully this will lead to something. But other than that I'm not impressed.
I feel the same way so far. Not impressed with what he's doing right now.

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07-18-2013, 06:56 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think it's too early to determine that...depending on the next deal Subban signs, they might actually sign him at better value.

I don't like speculating on numbers, I don't believe anyone truly knows what PK wants except PK and his agent.

But let's just use the reported rumors at face value

What would you prefer?

5 years at 5.5M/yr (25M)...followed by another deal at let's say 8 years at 8.5M/yr
(68M)...(and really, who knows what a player like Subban will be worth in his prime, i'm being conservative here)

or

2 years at 2.85M (5.75M aka bridge deal he just got)...followed by another deal at 8 years 7.5M/yr (60M)

Giving PK a 5 year deal last January takes him right into his prime UFA years...THAT'S when it's REALLY going to cost you big money to keep him. TODAY, is when you need to take advantage of Subban's RFA years because that's when his has less leverage (Norris withstanding)

I happen to think the 2nd option is probably smarter business...though both options involve SOME risk
In one instance he's here for 13 years, in the other he's here for 10. So I rather the 13 year one. But that's not the only reason why.
When we re-signe PK we had just finished last in east. So having him at a low cap hit hit for 1 1/2 seasons is pretty useless as our window to compete wasn't quite opened yet. So it's much better to have him locked up at a cheaper long term deal right away because by year 3-4-5, that's when we hopefully really be competitive.

Also, if you give him what he wants right away, he's more likely to be open minded coming into the next negotiation, so if you need him to take a little discount, he might actually do it because you showed faith in him.

Signing him to this lowball offer made little sense on so many levels.

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07-18-2013, 07:27 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think it's too early to determine that...depending on the next deal Subban signs, they might actually sign him at better value.

I don't like speculating on numbers, I don't believe anyone truly knows what PK wants except PK and his agent.

But let's just use the reported rumors at face value

What would you prefer?

5 years at 5.5M/yr (25M)...followed by another deal at let's say 8 years at 8.5M/yr
(68M)...(and really, who knows what a player like Subban will be worth in his prime, i'm being conservative here)

or

2 years at 2.85M (5.75M aka bridge deal he just got)...followed by another deal at 8 years 7.5M/yr (60M)

Giving PK a 5 year deal last January takes him right into his prime UFA years...THAT'S when it's REALLY going to cost you big money to keep him. TODAY, is when you need to take advantage of Subban's RFA years because that's when his has less leverage (Norris withstanding)

I happen to think the 2nd option is probably smarter business...though both options involve SOME risk
I don't think those numbers you posted make a lot of sense, to be honest, and I think they were deliberately chosen to make your point. PK's value could barely be higher than what it is, and there's a lot more risk that he'll put up a dominant season, than a dominant 5 seasons to increase his value. Yet, you have PK taking in Crosby money in a scenario with a lot more uncertainty, and substantially less in a scenario where his value will be predictably sky high. This is entirely to make the point that "it's actually cheaper my way." Assuming your conclusion is one way of going about it, I suppose...

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07-18-2013, 07:36 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
First off Subban accepting the bridge deal will have no impact on what Galchenyuk and his agent ask for.
In your world perhaps, but in the real world, it does. Agents and players compare each others situation all the time in order to get the better deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Second, if we lose Gionta & Markov because we need to make room for PK's salary then we are worse off as a team. Whether you like to admit it or not those are two very important pieces to a team that most argue is not even a real contender yet. Someone has to replace those minutes, and I guess do better since we aren't even a contender. Since established players will cost as much or more we are talking prospects, and most prospects don't reach their potential so we are likely going to end up even further from being a contender.
Wait. Have you read the article or did you skim through it? Markov and Gionta would free up close to $11M. PK is already making almost $3M. The salary cap is predicted to go back to what it was last year, so close to $70M. That's close to $20M more than for the 2013-14 season. Are you suggesting that Subban will be paid $20M? I bet not, of course. Even if he's given $7M, there still is $13M left to replace Gionta and Markov, correct? That's $2M more than what they're making today! Capich?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
He missed the boat and it is clear that it's no longer opinion but fact. Subban won the Norris. He now will command higher than he did last offseason.
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
In regards to opinion vs fact...

Some opinions are a hell of a lot more valid than others. If we traded PK for Chris Neil is this in FACT a bad trade before we watch them this season? Well, maybe it's a matter of opinion for some people but I'd say it's a pretty stark example of a case where our GM did something wrong.
That's pretty much the case with what MB did with Subban. Folks can speculate all they want on whether or not the lowball motivated him (I highly doubt this) but it's conjecture. The fact of the matter is that we paid the guy less than Josh Gorges money when he was looking for a long term deal. And that's something that I think we'll regret over the next several years. Folks can try to dress it up all they want but they're still sitting there putting lipstick on a pig trying to make it look pretty.

I feel the same way so far. Not impressed with what he's doing right now.
It's funny how you two (and a few others) think that he missed the boat while a well respected hockey decision maker, GM Bergevin, felt like he was justified doing what he did. I know where I put my money but hey, you're entitled to think that he missed the boat. It's your opinion.

I wonder sometimes why some people here aren't in place to make those decisions.

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07-18-2013, 08:04 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post


It's funny how you two (and a few others) think that he missed the boat while a well respected hockey decision maker, GM Bergevin, felt like he was justified doing what he did. I know where I put my money but hey, you're entitled to think that he missed the boat. It's your opinion.

I wonder sometimes why some people here aren't in place to make those decisions.
Really? I need to tell you that GMs and well respected hockey minds don't get everything right?
Please man, spare me that BS.

Bergevin was a rookie GM. Heck, he did other mistakes like re-sign DD this early.

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07-18-2013, 08:15 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
I don't think those numbers you posted make a lot of sense, to be honest, and I think they were deliberately chosen to make your point. PK's value could barely be higher than what it is, and there's a lot more risk that he'll put up a dominant season, than a dominant 5 seasons to increase his value. Yet, you have PK taking in Crosby money in a scenario with a lot more uncertainty, and substantially less in a scenario where his value will be predictably sky high. This is entirely to make the point that "it's actually cheaper my way." Assuming your conclusion is one way of going about it, I suppose...
I think I pointed out that it was just a hypothetical situation, which is pretty much all anyone is going off of here.

Furthermore...I think 8.5M per year 5-6 years from now for a Norris caliber dman is rather conservative.

I didn't cherry pick any argument...I presented two fictious scenarios and asked which you would prefer, both have their advantages and disadvantages

The point was to show that either scenario has its risks/rewards

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07-18-2013, 08:40 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Really? I need to tell you that GMs and well respected hockey minds don't get everything right?
Please man, spare me that BS.

Bergevin was a rookie GM. Heck, he did other mistakes like re-sign DD this early.
From reading you over the years, I'm sure glad to have this "rookie" GM as opposed to you (or I) out there my friend!

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07-18-2013, 08:41 PM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
no, what is clear is that you're stating opinions as facts, THAT is a fact
I can say without a doubt that PK Subban will now cost the Montreal Canadiens more per year over the years 2014-2015 on than it would of cost them had they signed him to a long term deal in 2013.

Sorry but this is fact. It is complemented by the fact that PK Subban won the Norris trophy in 2013.

Is that enough facts for you?

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07-18-2013, 08:47 PM
  #409
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Trade??

There has been a few rumors last year but the trade dint happen,but with the TML apparently shopping around Phaneuf i wouln't be surprised if there were a deal starting with Phaneuf and P-K Subban, P-k is always in toronto in the summer and i dont think Montreal is the place for him.

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07-18-2013, 08:55 PM
  #410
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Trade??

Well since Phaneuf is clearly a better player than P-K u guys will have to add a few picks and prospect...Phaneuf has proven his self way more.

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07-18-2013, 09:06 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Hypothetical...If MB were to sign Subban to a 8yr 52M deal today (6.5M annually).

Would the bridge contract he gave him still be looked to as a mistake by those who are so against that bridge deal?
Yes, MB was gift wrapped a number one, 23 year old dman who wanted to sign here long term. A 23 year old player who has shown an unimaginable continuous learning curve and constant improvement. PK was one of the best spoken and well presented players during the entire lockout. Never took shots at Bettman, owners or anyone. His charity work is outstanding. He's a class act who wanted to be here, not often you can say that a number 1 dman wants to wear the CH. He's proven he has the personality to withstand the pressure and he always steps up his play in big games.

No one knows what the actual difference in dollars will be. I'm guessing PK was looking for around 5.5, so 6.5 would still mean we're spending 1million more on a player that we shouldn't be, but money aside, the 1-2 million over payment that will likely ensue isn't even the issue with me. To me, it puts serious questions in MB ability to judge talent and players. PK was about as sure bet as they come. Sure some bust, but if there was ever a player to bet the house on it's PK Subban.

Quite frankly, I don't get the personality concerns at all and if MB got word from the previous regime and based his decision on that? Why the hell would you ever follow the advice of the previous group that was let go due to incompetence? MT didn't handle his end of the deal any better. PK's handling this year was a huge failure imo. He succeeded in spite of his coach and GM, not because of them. He's that damn good.

What should have been MB easiest decisions turned out to be a bit of a joke.

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07-18-2013, 09:13 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Coconuttree View Post
Well since Phaneuf is clearly a better player than P-K u guys will have to add a few picks and prospect...Phaneuf has proven his self way more.
Looks like we got ourselves a festizio.

Look, I think Bergevin should try and get a contract done as soon as possible, or at least try to. Subban is clearly dedicated to winning, and he threw Montreal a bone by taking the $5.6m deal over two years. Now it's time to return the bone and try and get on mutual ground. If he asks Bergevin for seven to eight million, he should try to get it to $6.5m, but otherwise try to stay in the same ballbark this time. Whether he could have saved a few million at this point is a rather pedantic thing to argue, answer is yes he could have but he didn't. If Bergevin tries to pull the same thing on Subban again, then we'll talk.

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07-18-2013, 09:18 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Coconuttree View Post
There has been a few rumors last year but the trade dint happen,but with the TML apparently shopping around Phaneuf i wouln't be surprised if there were a deal starting with Phaneuf and P-K Subban, P-k is always in toronto in the summer and i dont think Montreal is the place for him.
You're lost, I would probably return to your board.

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07-18-2013, 09:24 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Coconuttree View Post
Well since Phaneuf is clearly a better player than P-K u guys will have to add a few picks and prospect...Phaneuf has proven his self way more.
Clearly.

Maybe Subban + Beaulieu + Galchenyuk + 5th rounder would get it done?

Worst case we can throw in Tinordi.

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07-18-2013, 09:46 PM
  #415
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Well since Phaneuf is clearly a better player than P-K u guys will have to add a few picks and prospect...Phaneuf has proven his self way more.
I can't see Toronto making that trade honestly, it'd set back their organization 5 years. I think the habs would pass too, we don't wanna ruin Toronto's cup run.

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07-18-2013, 09:56 PM
  #416
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Don't delude yourselves, Subban is getting Doughty or Chara money because he IS worth that much. With a long enough term, he'll have come out of all this with more money than if he had gotten the money right now.

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07-18-2013, 10:32 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
I can say without a doubt that PK Subban will now cost the Montreal Canadiens more per year over the years 2014-2015 on than it would of cost them had they signed him to a long term deal in 2013.

Sorry but this is fact. It is complemented by the fact that PK Subban won the Norris trophy in 2013.

Is that enough facts for you?
by how much ?

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07-18-2013, 10:42 PM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
by how much ?
The situation that we experienced has set a trend but has not been defined yet by quantity.

If you want to speculate, and to keep it simple lets do the following:

Do you agree that had PK Subban signed a long term deal in 2013, he would be making less than 6 million per season on average?

Now that PK Subban has won the Norris trophy as the best defensemen in the NHL, he will be making greater than 6 million per season on average?

After you answer yes to both questions, these constraints are the variables required to understand that MB missed the boat.

Now go ahead and do your thing.

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07-18-2013, 10:50 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think I pointed out that it was just a hypothetical situation, which is pretty much all anyone is going off of here.

Furthermore...I think 8.5M per year 5-6 years from now for a Norris caliber dman is rather conservative.

I didn't cherry pick any argument...I presented two fictious scenarios and asked which you would prefer, both have their advantages and disadvantages

The point was to show that either scenario has its risks/rewards
Yeah, and both have their likelihoods: a fact you didn't consider in your argument. It's not inconsequential either, when you're predicting a value which is already sky high to be even higher 5 years from now.

Every scenario has a risk and a reward associated with it. The risk of the bridge contract was that Subban was going to put up a retarded season and break the bank. That much is absolutely going to happen. Bergevin's wager didn't hit. This is also completely ignoring the other factors that went into this negotiation which may influence Subban's decision to sign an offer sheet. Yeah yeah, nothing personal, just business. We'll see. Business seemed to have a different meaning for Desharnais than it did Subban.

This point has nothing to do with you, but I thought I'd bring it up: some people have made the argument that this deal will be cheaper in the long run positing much the same scenario as you just did. Some of those people in turn have made the argument that the low-ball offer caused Subban to go super srs and win a Norris trophy. The implication is that this wouldn't have happened if we gave him a contract resembling his contribution to the team to date. However, this is never factored into the analysis. Subban always ends up signing an 8 million dollar contract just to make the argument work. It's ********.

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07-18-2013, 10:52 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Coconuttree View Post
Well since Phaneuf is clearly a better player than P-K u guys will have to add a few picks and prospect...Phaneuf has proven his self way more.
Lol.

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07-18-2013, 11:40 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
The situation that we experienced has set a trend but has not been defined yet by quantity.

If you want to speculate, and to keep it simple lets do the following:

Do you agree that had PK Subban signed a long term deal in 2013, he would be making less than 6 million per season on average?

Now that PK Subban has won the Norris trophy as the best defensemen in the NHL, he will be making greater than 6 million per season on average?

After you answer yes to both questions, these constraints are the variables required to understand that MB missed the boat.
what do you mean speculate ? I thought you were stating facts ?

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07-18-2013, 11:48 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
It's funny how you two (and a few others) think that he missed the boat while a well respected hockey decision maker, GM Bergevin, felt like he was justified doing what he did. I know where I put my money but hey, you're entitled to think that he missed the boat. It's your opinion.
Ah yes... the last line of defense: 'He's a GM and you're not.'

Dude, I don't give a **** what MB felt justified about anymore than I care about what Gainey was thinking when he made some of his idiotic decisions. The case against this particular decision has been very well made in this thread.

I haven't heard much from you other than unsubstantiated conjecture that us lowballing him somehow motivated him to play at a level beyond what he otherwise would have. I've heard you talk about mysterious "factors" that you have yet to explain that somehow indicate that Gorges is worth more cash than PK and that these factors along with Subban's being an RFA justify us forcing a contract on him that paid him substantially less than what Gorges is making.

I heard this line of crap when Gainey was GM and signed Samsonov. I heard it when I argued against the signings of Gomez and co. I heard it when I argued that we should deal away the core (that we let go for nothing anyway) and rebuild. I heard it when I argued that Kaberle was a dumb move...

"You're not a GM"... that was the final desperate refrain that was echoed as many of us ripped each of those moves apart. Well in each of those cases we were right. Call it opinion all you want, those were disastrous moves that our GMs have made and this was (while not in the league of those other moves) another case of a bad decision.

All that's left now is for those who defended the move back then to remain stubborn and defend a pretty much indefensible position. Feel free to continue to do this but all you are doing is costing yourself credibility on this board.

You don't have to be a GM to see that he made a mistake anymore than you had to be a GM to see that the Gomez move was stupid. MB made an error and I'm pretty sure he knows it even if his defenders do not.
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I wonder sometimes why some people here aren't in place to make those decisions.
I wonder sometimes how some of these idiots wind up becoming GMs in the first place.

In many cases its a former player and its political. I dont' know what qualifications MB had for this post. I only know that (like when Gainey and Gauthier took the job before him) I was optimistic and ready to support him. He made some moves that didn't make a whole lot of sense but okay, the team did really well last year and I think he deserves some credit for that. It's not all bad.

But when the guy makes a mistake its totally fine for the fans to call him on it. That's what's happened here.

I have no idea if MB will be a good GM. So far, I'm not impressed by the transactions that he's made. DD was signed for too long, the Briere signing made absolutely no sense at all, we still don't have a PF or shutdown guy which is what we should've used the cap space for...

I'll wait and see. I haven't written him off but he's made some really puzzling moves.

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07-18-2013, 11:53 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Coconuttree View Post
Well since Phaneuf is clearly a better player than P-K u guys will have to add a few picks and prospect...Phaneuf has proven his self way more.
Somebody queue the Benny Hill music...

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07-19-2013, 12:08 AM
  #424
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Ah yes... the last line of defense: 'He's a GM and you're not.'

Dude, I don't give a **** what MB felt justified about anymore than I care about what Gainey was thinking when he made some of his idiotic decisions. The case against this particular decision has been very well made in this thread.

I haven't heard much from you other than unsubstantiated conjecture that us lowballing him somehow motivated him to play at a level beyond what he otherwise would have. I've heard you talk about mysterious "factors" that you have yet to explain that somehow indicate that Gorges is worth more cash than PK and that these factors along with Subban's being an RFA justify us forcing a contract on him that paid him substantially less than what Gorges is making.

All that's left now is for those who defended the move back then to remain stubborn and defend a pretty much indefensible position. Feel free to continue to do this but all you are doing is costing yourself credibility on this board.
Perhaps you "haven't heard" because I couldn't "tell you" as we're writing. But I did however wrote a 1,300 word article just for you so that I could explain in length what what I'm thinking. The fact that you don't agree and want to discredit my point doesn't mean that I didn't explain it. Putting your head in the sand doesn't mean we can't see you.

No worries though, I respectfully disagree with your theory as well. I've brought forward more facts than you did, yet they don't count as they go against your opinion. That's fine, I won't lose sleep over it. I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagreeing, you know. I know that I won't convince you otherwise and I sure know that the opposite is just as true.

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I wonder sometimes how some of these idiots wind up becoming GMs in the first place.
So in the one hand, you're saying that I lose credibility for not agreeing with your theories and on the other, you're calling Bergevin an idiot. I see...

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07-19-2013, 12:12 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
what do you mean speculate ? I thought you were stating facts ?
The amount is speculative. No one could know exact values of things that didnt happen and/or to happen in the future.

What we do know is PK Subbans value is higher today than it was in January 2013. For a GM to not see that they had a player of this caliber right under their nose is... Another story. Using deductive reasoning you can see that having Subban at a reduced price for 1 year isn't worth anything close to having him at a reduced price for 3,4, even five years under a long term deal given in January 2013. That is fact that MB missed the boat (missed the boat on having Subban at a lower cap hit with a January 2013 long-term contract compared to the one he gets starting in 2014-2015)

This is all because Subbans value has never been higher and now gets to negotiate a new contract. Another fact.

CrAzYNiNe is offline  
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