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Teams that play a lot of rookies tend to lose a lot of games

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Old
07-19-2013, 12:25 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topnotch View Post
With 3rd and 4th line ES minutes and little to no PP time, I doubt Morin hits 15 goals.

I think it's just going to take longer for the prospects to become full NHL-caliber players.
You have to take in to account that there will be injuries and he stands a decent chance of filling in top 6 roles at times. Of course - he himself could get injured too, or he might not even make the team.

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07-19-2013, 12:40 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topnotch View Post
With 3rd and 4th line ES minutes and little to no PP time, I doubt Morin hits 15 goals.

I think it's just going to take longer for the prospects to become full NHL-caliber players.
I think you're overstating how difficult it is to score 15 goals in the NHL.

It basically averages out to about 2 goals every 12 games. That's really not a lot of production, and I would say Morin could quite easily do that - even without PP time.

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07-19-2013, 04:37 PM
  #178
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Still talking over and over about this? Hawks top players will be reason for success or failure. Our young guys will provide depth for us.
Morin, if he makes the team, will add differnt strenghts than Stalberg offered. Still could end up outscoring him.

Hawks were lucky with injuries the last years and over 82 games there wil be enough games we see guys getting called up

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07-19-2013, 06:26 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Still talking over and over about this? Hawks top players will be reason for success or failure. Our young guys will provide depth for us.
Morin, if he makes the team, will add differnt strenghts than Stalberg offered. Still could end up outscoring him.

Hawks were lucky with injuries the last years and over 82 games there wil be enough games we see guys getting called up
Hawks have the short summer plus many top guys going to Olympics. Could definitely see injuries or even built in rest days for some of our older guys.

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07-19-2013, 06:39 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topnotch View Post
With 3rd and 4th line ES minutes and little to no PP time, I doubt Morin hits 15 goals.
Stalberg played on second power play unit this past season. No reason to doubt that Morin may see time on the second power play unit especially if Patrick Sharp plays point on the first unit.

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07-19-2013, 06:42 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topnotch View Post
With 3rd and 4th line ES minutes and little to no PP time, I doubt Morin hits 15 goals.
Unlike Stalberg, Jeremy Morin is willing to drive to the net.

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07-19-2013, 06:48 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeySensible View Post
I think you're overstating how difficult it is to score 15 goals in the NHL.

It basically averages out to about 2 goals every 12 games. That's really not a lot of production, and I would say Morin could quite easily do that - even without PP time.
Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree.

In 2011-12 only 117 players hit 15 ES and SH goals. On average that makes it the 4th best goal scorer on each team.

Notables (w/o missing significant time to injury): Selanne, Jokinen, Kesler, Stastny, Legwand, Thornton, O'Reilly, Bozak, Eller, J Williams, Brown, Stepan, Clowe, Gagner, Plekanec, Steen, Jagr, Roy.

In 2012-13 there were even fewer who were on pace to do it (106). But it still comes out to approximately the 4th best goal scorer on a team.

Notables: Ryder, Iginla, Franzen, Cammalleri, Skinner, Bozak, B Richards, B Sutter, Henrique, Bergeron, Perron, Datsyuk, Ribeiro, Giroux, Zetterberg, Alfredsson, M Richards, Filppula.


I surprised myself with some names that missed in either of the two years. Also realized that Toews had 21 ES and SH goals this past year - best in the NHL by two goals over Stamkos and Tavares, 5 better than Ovechkin.

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Old
07-19-2013, 07:38 PM
  #183
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Pirri - 12 to 16 goals
Morin - 12 to 16 goals
Smith - 4 to 8 goals

Jeremy Morin's production should at least match Viktor Stalberg's production in his first full season with the Chicago Blackhawks:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CHI/2011.html


Last edited by SLarmer28: 07-19-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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Old
07-20-2013, 12:16 PM
  #184
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The thread topic fails to distinguish how old the 4-5 rookies might be and how much pro experience they may have serving in the ahl AND what roles they are given...obviously if a team loads in 4-5 rookies at 18 or 19 or 20 with no ahl experience or just 1 yr in the AHL and thrusts them all into top six forwards or top 4 d-men roles with lots of minutes. ..THEN expect plenty of losses..but if you instead are talking playing either a 2 yr AHL vet 21 or 22 already and a 4 yr college graduate also past that age and some other AHL vets with 2 or more seasons down there and 22 or older amd play only one of them on the second line, one on the third line, others only on the 4th line and mone of them in the top 6 D..then I think it is am entirely different story..does not mean all are ROTY candidayes..but they are no longer deer im the headlights mistake machines either..if they fail Q and his staff will not keep them around very long..Besides we have Handzus as insurance if Pirri fails to grab and hold his 2C opportunoty or if Leblanc also fails if Pirri fails and he too cannot grab the 2C in that case..So we are 3 chances of making that work..not to worry. Then as for Morin Hayes Smith...again one of 3 chances to fill for Stalberg on line 3 Or If Leblanc plays 3C you have Shaw in the RW spot on that line..So it is not that Morin must get perform well in the 3W spot because we can move Leblanc or Handzus to 3C and Shaw we know can play wing. AND HAYES or SMITH as 4th liners with limited minutes will not be THE CAUSE of the Hawks losing..So in the cae of the Hawks we CAN play 4-5 rookies if that many all earn their spots and correct roles..if any team can infuse that many rookies...albeit older and mostly AHL experienced rookies of several years there..it is us.we are not playing 4-5 guys right out of jr. Or 1 yr removed from Jr. AND we have insurance in guys like Handzus to move upline if the rookies fai in those upline spots. There should be no concern except that we must find either a rookie or a vet of the team to take the Frolik role on the PK.. BuT they did give Saad some PK work and probably he gets the chance for #1 PK unit with Kruger...As we know PK work helps a lot of playets improve their games withot the puck. SHOULD MAKE SAAD even a better player than he was as a rookie..I am encouraged not worried by our yute infudion..No one is really a first yr pro except Leblanc and we do not know if he is on the team with a top 9F role or sent to Rockford because the other rookieslike Pirri and Morin did keep their Top 2 and 3rd line roles. ...and even if he makes the team somewhere,Leblanc is a more mature guy graduayed 4 yrs through college..not some recent kid right from jrs. Or just 1 yr from jrs. So the blanket statement inplying playing 4-5 "rookies" will doom the Hawks to losing is I think misplaced in the actual cirmcumstances of the age and experience of this rookie group.

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07-20-2013, 12:18 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
The thread topic fails to distinguish how old the 4-5 rookies might be and how much pro experience they may have serving in the ahl AND what roles they are given...obviously if a team loads in 4-5 rookies at 18 or 19 or 20 with no ahl experience or just 1 yr in the AHL and thrusts them all into top six forwards or top 4 d-men roles with lots of minutes. ..THEN expect plenty of losses..but if you instead are talking playing either a 2 yr AHL vet 21 or 22 already and a 4 yr college graduate also past that age and some other AHL vets with 2 or more seasons down there and 22 or older amd play only one of them on the second line, one on the third line, others only on the 4th line and mone of them in the top 6 D..then I think it is am entirely different story..does not mean all are ROTY candidayes..but they are no longer deer im the headlights mistake machines either..if they fail Q and his staff will not keep them around very long..Besides we have Handzus as insurance if Pirri fails to grab and hold his 2C opportunoty or if Leblanc also fails if Pirri fails and he too cannot grab the 2C in that case..So we are 3 chances of making that work..not to worry. Then as for Morin Hayes Smith...again one of 3 chances to fill for Stalberg on line 3 Or If Leblanc plays 3C you have Shaw in the RW spot on that line..So it is not that Morin must get perform well in the 3W spot because we can move Leblanc or Handzus to 3C and Shaw we know can play wing. AND HAYES or SMITH as 4th liners with limited minutes will not be THE CAUSE of the Hawks losing..So in the cae of the Hawks we CAN play 4-5 rookies if that many all earn their spots and correct roles..if any team can infuse that many rookies...albeit older and mostly AHL experienced rookies of several years there..it is us.we are not playing 4-5 guys right out of jr. Or 1 yr removed from Jr. AND we have insurance in guys like Handzus to move upline if the rookies fai in those upline spots. There should be no concern except that we must find either a rookie or a vet of the team to take the Frolik role on the PK.. BuT they did give Saad some PK work and probably he gets the chance for #1 PK unit with Kruger...As we know PK work helps a lot of playets improve their games withot the puck. SHOULD MAKE SAAD even a better player than he was as a rookie..I am encouraged not worried by our yute infudion..No one is really a first yr pro except Leblanc and we do not know if he is on the team with a top 9F role or sent to Rockford because the other rookieslike Pirri and Morin did keep their Top 2 and 3rd line roles. ...and even if he makes the team somewhere,Leblanc is a more mature guy graduayed 4 yrs through college..not some recent kid right from jrs. Or just 1 yr from jrs. So the blanket statement inplying playing 4-5 "rookies" will doom the Hawks to losing is I think misplaced in the actual cirmcumstances of the age and experience of this rookie group.
^^ Best post in the thread

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Old
07-20-2013, 01:41 PM
  #186
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If anything this coming season is the perfect time to start a bunch of rookies. Let's get them some experience while we can use the Cup hangover excuse. Nobody expects teams to repeat anymore so we're kind of off the hook. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

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07-20-2013, 02:55 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
The thread topic fails to distinguish how old the 4-5 rookies might be and how much pro experience they may have serving in the ahl AND what roles they are given...obviously if a team loads in 4-5 rookies at 18 or 19 or 20 with no ahl experience or just 1 yr in the AHL and thrusts them all into top six forwards or top 4 d-men roles with lots of minutes. ..THEN expect plenty of losses..but if you instead are talking playing either a 2 yr AHL vet 21 or 22 already and a 4 yr college graduate also past that age and some other AHL vets with 2 or more seasons down there and 22 or older amd play only one of them on the second line, one on the third line, others only on the 4th line and mone of them in the top 6 D..then I think it is am entirely different story..does not mean all are ROTY candidayes..but they are no longer deer im the headlights mistake machines either..if they fail Q and his staff will not keep them around very long..Besides we have Handzus as insurance if Pirri fails to grab and hold his 2C opportunoty or if Leblanc also fails if Pirri fails and he too cannot grab the 2C in that case..So we are 3 chances of making that work..not to worry. Then as for Morin Hayes Smith...again one of 3 chances to fill for Stalberg on line 3 Or If Leblanc plays 3C you have Shaw in the RW spot on that line..So it is not that Morin must get perform well in the 3W spot because we can move Leblanc or Handzus to 3C and Shaw we know can play wing. AND HAYES or SMITH as 4th liners with limited minutes will not be THE CAUSE of the Hawks losing..So in the cae of the Hawks we CAN play 4-5 rookies if that many all earn their spots and correct roles..if any team can infuse that many rookies...albeit older and mostly AHL experienced rookies of several years there..it is us.we are not playing 4-5 guys right out of jr. Or 1 yr removed from Jr. AND we have insurance in guys like Handzus to move upline if the rookies fai in those upline spots. There should be no concern except that we must find either a rookie or a vet of the team to take the Frolik role on the PK.. BuT they did give Saad some PK work and probably he gets the chance for #1 PK unit with Kruger...As we know PK work helps a lot of playets improve their games withot the puck. SHOULD MAKE SAAD even a better player than he was as a rookie..I am encouraged not worried by our yute infudion..No one is really a first yr pro except Leblanc and we do not know if he is on the team with a top 9F role or sent to Rockford because the other rookieslike Pirri and Morin did keep their Top 2 and 3rd line roles. ...and even if he makes the team somewhere,Leblanc is a more mature guy graduayed 4 yrs through college..not some recent kid right from jrs. Or just 1 yr from jrs. So the blanket statement inplying playing 4-5 "rookies" will doom the Hawks to losing is I think misplaced in the actual cirmcumstances of the age and experience of this rookie group.
Have never agreed more with Robo-fiddy. The absolute best response to this thread

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Old
07-20-2013, 03:07 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by topnotch View Post
Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree.

In 2011-12 only 117 players hit 15 ES and SH goals. On average that makes it the 4th best goal scorer on each team.

Notables (w/o missing significant time to injury): Selanne, Jokinen, Kesler, Stastny, Legwand, Thornton, O'Reilly, Bozak, Eller, J Williams, Brown, Stepan, Clowe, Gagner, Plekanec, Steen, Jagr, Roy.

In 2012-13 there were even fewer who were on pace to do it (106). But it still comes out to approximately the 4th best goal scorer on a team.

Notables: Ryder, Iginla, Franzen, Cammalleri, Skinner, Bozak, B Richards, B Sutter, Henrique, Bergeron, Perron, Datsyuk, Ribeiro, Giroux, Zetterberg, Alfredsson, M Richards, Filppula.


I surprised myself with some names that missed in either of the two years. Also realized that Toews had 21 ES and SH goals this past year - best in the NHL by two goals over Stamkos and Tavares, 5 better than Ovechkin.
That's definitely surprising, but I still stand by my opinion. I believe Morin can score at a 2G per 12GP pace.

Last year, Chicago had both Bickell and Stalberg on pace for 15+ ES goals. I think Morin's a better goal-scorer than both.

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