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The "Balls or No Balls" thread

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Old
07-19-2013, 04:53 PM
  #26
JohnnyB11
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I think this was more not budging on bridge contract than standing up to Subban's demands.
But aren't they one and the same? By not budging on a bridge contract was he not standing up to Subban's demands??

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07-19-2013, 05:26 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
But aren't they one and the same? By not budging on a bridge contract was he not standing up to Subban's demands??
In effect, yes. But the way one says it has a bearing on what is implied.

If you say it like :"He stood up to Subban's demands' implies that his goal was to lock horns with PK and make him blink.

Stating that "he did not budge on the bridge contract" implies a dedication to a strategy/doctrine regarding player contracts, not a desire to impose one's will over the other.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:02 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by pezcore View Post
im sure the pressure is on Bergevin to make ballsy moves and trade for this player or sign this player etc. The time is not right, you make the moves like you think that this could be your year to win the Cup.

Slow and steady has proven to be a sure thing though. Look at the Blackhawks. no bold moves, no big UFA signing (last one being Hossa) build from within, trade the role players with value when you have someone in the farm to replace them. That formula will keep your team a contender every year. Look a Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA..all bottom dweller that drafted well (yes I understand all these team had several top 5 picks) and now they are favorites every year.

Rangers and Leafs are the perfect example of trying to rush thing doesnt work. Getting the best UFA,s making the big trade and neither of those team had great success with that formula.

So far I like what Bergevin has done and im willing to wait a couple more years as a bubble team. In 3 years or so. We will see most of our high picks (Collberg, McCarron, DLR, Beaulieu) with our young core (Galchenyuk, Price, Subban, Pax, Gallagher, Tinordi) and we'll have one hell of a team....and add 2 drafts to that!!!
In what world did Chicago have no big UFAs? They spent huge sums of money on Campbell, Huet, Hossa. That's what put them over the top the 1st time, and without going the distance before they likely wouldn't have won last year. LA did the same thing and traded for Carter, Richards, Penner. Only Pittsburgh was through the draft only and they had 5 top-5 picks 2 of whom are the best 2 considered the best in the world.

Building your core through the draft is the right thing to do, but at some point you have to switch over from building to going for it. The timing of that is of course crucial. For us that time has arrived.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:15 PM
  #29
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In terms of making ballsy moves we can't really judge Bergevin until he actually decides to try and go for it. It's becoming more and more apparent to me that Bergevin came to MTL thinking he had a team that needed to be completely rebuilt and was going to do that through a series of top-5 picks. Either last season didn't change his opinion or it has screwed with his plans and he's now half rebuilding half going for it.

The way I see it we've already built our core through the draft now is the time to be surrounding them. Guys like MacCarron, Collberg, De la Rose, etc... they are basically going to come in and replace departing vets. We shouldn't expect a massive improvement when they do, it's basically a lateral move and in Markov's case it will likely be a step back.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:18 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
In what world did Chicago have no big UFAs? They spent huge sums of money on Campbell, Huet, Hossa. That's what put them over the top the 1st time, and without going the distance before they likely wouldn't have won last year. LA did the same thing and traded for Carter, Richards, Penner. Only Pittsburgh was through the draft only and they had 5 top-5 picks 2 of whom are the best 2 considered the best in the world.

Building your core through the draft is the right thing to do, but at some point you have to switch over from building to going for it. The timing of that is of course crucial. For us that time has arrived.
That time has not arrived at all... Our team is so lacking to make a strong playoff run its not even funny. In 2-3 years we will have a great group in the heat of their prime, PK+Patches+Eller will be 27yo, Price will be 29yo, our young guns will have matured to take top roles Galchenyuk will be 22, Gallgher 25, Beaulieu 23 and Tinordi 24. The prospects we aren't sure about will have shown the first signs of where they can be slotted in, will Collberg be an NHLer? Can McCarron become a top 6er? Will De la Rose develop his offensive game more can Fucale be an impact goalie at the higher level. Once these questions are answered and our core is ready we go for the big move, but in no universe is this core ready, half of them aren't even leading the team yet!

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:43 PM
  #31
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after reading the first post, one could easily come to the conclusion that only one GM in the league really has balls, Holmgren.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:45 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Habsfannick View Post
That time has not arrived at all... Our team is so lacking to make a strong playoff run its not even funny. In 2-3 years we will have a great group in the heat of their prime, PK+Patches+Eller will be 27yo, Price will be 29yo, our young guns will have matured to take top roles Galchenyuk will be 22, Gallgher 25, Beaulieu 23 and Tinordi 24. The prospects we aren't sure about will have shown the first signs of where they can be slotted in, will Collberg be an NHLer? Can McCarron become a top 6er? Will De la Rose develop his offensive game more can Fucale be an impact goalie at the higher level. Once these questions are answered and our core is ready we go for the big move, but in no universe is this core ready, half of them aren't even leading the team yet!
Let me ask you this then. Besides Subban how can play 25min a night against more or less top opposition and finish top-5 in D scoring? Are you counting on a 23 year old Beaulieu to do that

Let's assume Eller can adequately replace Plekanec, who will be our 3rd line center that can produce at a 0.65 ppg rate with hardly any PP time?

As you said we don't even know if Collberg can be an NHLer but if he or another prospect can't come in and score 25-30 goals and be a good two-way player then we are taking a step back when we lose Gionta.

Also Subban is the reigning Norris champ, he'll likely improve with experience but not by much, same goes for Pacioretty he's lead our teams in points for 2 seasons now, he's a 60-70pt player. He's not going to be much better than he is right now. Without a change in role Eller's not going to be able to do more than what he's currently giving either.

Does the team have flaws, absolutely but none of them will be addressed in 2 years by the development of our prospects unless one of them takes a massive leap in their development which is unlikely.

Care to tell me what you think our team is lacking in order to make a strong playoff push?

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Let me ask you this then. Besides Subban how can play 25min a night against more or less top opposition and finish top-5 in D scoring? Are you counting on a 23 year old Beaulieu to do that

Let's assume Eller can adequately replace Plekanec, who will be our 3rd line center that can produce at a 0.65 ppg rate with hardly any PP time?

As you said we don't even know if Collberg can be an NHLer but if he or another prospect can't come in and score 25-30 goals and be a good two-way player then we are taking a step back when we lose Gionta.

Also Subban is the reigning Norris champ, he'll likely improve with experience but not by much, same goes for Pacioretty he's lead our teams in points for 2 seasons now, he's a 60-70pt player. He's not going to be much better than he is right now. Without a change in role Eller's not going to be able to do more than what he's currently giving either.

Does the team have flaws, absolutely but none of them will be addressed in 2 years by the development of our prospects unless one of them takes a massive leap in their development which is unlikely.

Care to tell me what you think our team is lacking in order to make a strong playoff push?
A consistent and playoff confident Carey Price.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:56 PM
  #34
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Interesting piece. The way I see it, is that Bergy is slowly building up our assets now so in the future, if we need to add a big name player via trade or UFA, we can be able to do it without selling the farm.

And while I do believe we may need another young elite talent to add to our young core, we have a very solid number of prospects that will join the Habs in the near future that will make us a contender.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Let me ask you this then. Besides Subban how can play 25min a night against more or less top opposition and finish top-5 in D scoring? Are you counting on a 23 year old Beaulieu to do that

Let's assume Eller can adequately replace Plekanec, who will be our 3rd line center that can produce at a 0.65 ppg rate with hardly any PP time?

As you said we don't even know if Collberg can be an NHLer but if he or another prospect can't come in and score 25-30 goals and be a good two-way player then we are taking a step back when we lose Gionta.

Also Subban is the reigning Norris champ, he'll likely improve with experience but not by much, same goes for Pacioretty he's lead our teams in points for 2 seasons now, he's a 60-70pt player. He's not going to be much better than he is right now. Without a change in role Eller's not going to be able to do more than what he's currently giving either.

Does the team have flaws, absolutely but none of them will be addressed in 2 years by the development of our prospects unless one of them takes a massive leap in their development which is unlikely.

Care to tell me what you think our team is lacking in order to make a strong playoff push?
A top line C, I love pleky but gally is gonna be a huge improvement on him, Gallgher will be an upgrade on gionta. Tinordi has shown he can play at the NHL level already so it's not a stretch to think he can play top 4 in 3 years. As you said Eller might not be an improvement on our 1st line like pleky but he's a damn improvement to DD on the second. We are missing a top 4, minute eater who clears the crease and a large top 6 gritty forward who will open up the ice for his linemates. If you can find a way to acquire this without giving up the players you want to use as a core and the youth that surrounds them tell me how and ill glady be okay with those moves.

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Old
07-19-2013, 06:57 PM
  #36
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To the OP; Bergevin will break his diet when we are 1 or 2 pieces away from being ready
We are not now near ready.
The Gallys have to get a little more seasoned
Price has to pick it up
Tinordi and Beaulieu make the roster and must be contributors
When we are approaching the above, thats when expect Bergevin to make the move for a Hossa-like player and to add a piece at the deadline.
Until then I don't want him to
it aint worth it just for the sake of it

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07-19-2013, 07:13 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
To the OP; Bergevin will break his diet when we are 1 or 2 pieces away from being ready
We are not now near ready.
The Gallys have to get a little more seasoned
Price has to pick it up
Tinordi and Beaulieu make the roster and must be contributors
When we are approaching the above, thats when expect Bergevin to make the move for a Hossa-like player and to add a piece at the deadline.
Until then I don't want him to
it aint worth it just for the sake of it
Exactly the point I made in my post. This is the approach I see Bergy taking and continuing until we are really close to contending.

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Old
07-19-2013, 07:20 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Habsfannick View Post
A top line C, I love pleky but gally is gonna be a huge improvement on him, Gallgher will be an upgrade on gionta. Tinordi has shown he can play at the NHL level already so it's not a stretch to think he can play top 4 in 3 years. As you said Eller might not be an improvement on our 1st line like pleky but he's a damn improvement to DD on the second. We are missing a top 4, minute eater who clears the crease and a large top 6 gritty forward who will open up the ice for his linemates. If you can find a way to acquire this without giving up the players you want to use as a core and the youth that surrounds them tell me how and ill glady be okay with those moves.
Boston won the cup with Krejci as their number one center, you can't tell me he's that much better than Plekanec. If you have an offence that is 3 lines deep the need for an elite number 1 center is much less.

Tinordi should be in the top-4 but let's be real here but are you seriously telling me you think he can replace Markov?

Eller can and should replace DD right now. We don't need 2-3 years for that to happen. And you didn't address my point who is our 3rd line center that can put up 50 points without PP time?

A defenceman who can clear the crease and a big top-6/9 winger are our needs. That's 2 players, not exactly a whole lot. There were 6-7 top-6 wingers with size available and we got Briere instead. If we need to wait 3+ years for MacCarron & Tinordi to fill those roles (Neither of whom are a sure thing) we will have other problems to deal with as well.

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Old
07-19-2013, 07:26 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Boston won the cup with Krejci as their number one center, you can't tell me he's that much better than Plekanec. If you have an offence that is 3 lines deep the need for an elite number 1 center is much less.

Tinordi should be in the top-4 but let's be real here but are you seriously telling me you think he can replace Markov?

Eller can and should replace DD right now. We don't need 2-3 years for that to happen. And you didn't address my point who is our 3rd line center that can put up 50 points without PP time?

A defenceman who can clear the crease and a big top-6/9 winger are our needs. That's 2 players, not exactly a whole lot. There were 6-7 top-6 wingers with size available and we got Briere instead. If we need to wait 3+ years for MacCarron & Tinordi to fill those roles (Neither of whom are a sure thing) we will have other problems to deal with as well.
I can't get more clear than I have been, everyone here agrees this team isn't ready... I love the "that's 2 players, not exactly a whole lot" comment because just cause they are out there doesn't mean they want to come here and incase you weren't aware those guys don't grow on trees... Don't have to look far the leafs just signed one to a disgusting contract, if you think the habs are better off signing guys to the caphits and contract lengths that Clarkson and Horton got right now, than I don't have anything else to talk to you about because that's insanity

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07-19-2013, 07:38 PM
  #40
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Very well written, good topic and a good read.
Unfortunately, only time will tell.

I think MB has been ballsy, its easy to throw around draft picks for bandaid solutions. Its easy to make a big move to make a splash as the new GM, of course it would mean massively overpaying. Its easy to throw every nickel of Cap room you have at the 33 year old whatever UFAs. It takes balls to stand by what you think will make this team a contender in future.

I say only time will tell because there is no question teams, all teams, need to make some trades, even ones that are building through the Draft. Its pretty much impossible to amass all the pieces you need through drafting. What you need from the Draft are a collection of really good pieces that gives you at least the basis of a core. You also need to build up depth, and that's when you can make moves. If you are deep at center you move a center with a prospect to get you that right winger you need.
Right now we are building depth. Besides Tinordi and Nathan B we have so many D prospects that are good enough to make it to Hamilton you would figure a couple could be NHL quality. That's a lot of depth. On top of that is the center situation. If, if DD gets his A game back then we could have options there as well.

I actually think we have enough D depth now in PMDs that we could make a move. Thing is you don't know whats been happening backstage. Maybe MB did try to get Coburn and Simmonds from Holmgren but the price was Patches, Gallagher, Tinordi and Nathan B. We likely will never know. But that is why I say time will tell. Its one thing if over this off-season MB didn't see a trade he thought was good for the team, but if he cant find one over a year and a half, then you have to start being concerned about MB being too passive and not getting that you just cant do it through the Draft. Or if you see Coburn and Simmonds moved and we do our math and could have done that deal with the assets we have and the price was alright, then we can also wonder.

And by the way, no issue with him not being willing to pay the price of moving up because it all depends on price. The guess is he wanted Morin, but what is Morin worth ? I think it would have been a given we were offering up the 25th ( McCarron ), the 34th or 36th ( DLR ) and maybe he was offering a good prospect like Nathan B and a 3rd. Many would say that is too much already, likely the target team wanted more. MB walked. Again, who knows ?
All I know is that though their have been a couple of moves I wondered about, MB still has my full confidence. None of the moves that I kind of squirmed with are ones that can have bad implications for the team medium or long term. I also don't know if they were actually bad to begin with, only this coming season will tell.

We need to give MB time. I know, it sucks, we want instant gratification. Im not saying he has a 3 year leash in terms of advancing the team to its goal, but its still early yet. Lets all remember though that BG wanted to build through the Draft, then proceeded to dump lots of assets for 0 return because of attitude issues and mostly because the little dictator JM wouldn't play these kids where they needed to play ( take deep breathe ), and then in a fireworks display out of complete desperation blew the team up. Gee, that was fun. Suck it up, let MB do his thing.

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Old
07-19-2013, 07:47 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Habsfannick View Post
I can't get more clear than I have been, everyone here agrees this team isn't ready... I love the "that's 2 players, not exactly a whole lot" comment because just cause they are out there doesn't mean they want to come here and incase you weren't aware those guys don't grow on trees... Don't have to look far the leafs just signed one to a disgusting contract, if you think the habs are better off signing guys to the caphits and contract lengths that Clarkson and Horton got right now, than I don't have anything else to talk to you about because that's insanity
They may not grow on trees but you make it sounds like it's impossible. There were 6-7 guys available so nearly a quarter of the teams were able to get one. It's the GMs job to sell his team to potential suitors, if he can't find a way to do that then it's a problem.

As far as term & caphits, just because someone is overpaid doesn't mean he won't help the team. Chicago overpaid to get Campbell and he helped them win a cup. LA took on some pretty bad terms when they got Richards and Carter, but they don't win the cup without them.

If you can get good players on cheaper deals then you can afford to overpay for the missing pieces. For instance if we had the foresight to sign Subban to 5m a year then we would be able to overpay a UFA by 2-3m without worrying.

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07-19-2013, 07:54 PM
  #42
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well big nuggets will either make or break the club

at least he is showing his, that he is not sacrificing youth or stupid contracts.

but , let's get bigger soon

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07-19-2013, 08:20 PM
  #43
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The thing with building through the draft is that it won't work unless you stick with it. After the team is full of good young assets, then you can deal some superfluous futures for immediate help (see Ottawa). We're not there yet and I think it will take at least another 2 years before we are.

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07-19-2013, 08:28 PM
  #44
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Still can't understand the Briere signing.

It's like he took a consolation prize and did something for the sake of showing that he could get a deal done. Didn't seem like there was any real thought into this move at all and it was done for window dressing purposes.

We can talk about how we wanted him to sign a Power forward and a shutdown guy. Personally, I can't see how a shutdown guy would be that hard to get. It almost seems like MB did what he could to make a deal with somebody, got shot down and went for leftovers. In terms of us being on a 'diet' the Briere move sure seemed out of place.

I'd actually have had more confidence in MB if he did nothing and we went into this season with a bit of cap space. Right now I'm confused by the direction of the club. Is it a rebuild or not? Rebuilding teams trade vets for prospects, they don't sign Daniel Briere type guys esp when they have small, weaker teams.

I really don't know what the hell this guy is doing. I hope he has a plan but he's had some strange decisions so far.

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07-19-2013, 08:46 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
They may not grow on trees but you make it sounds like it's impossible. There were 6-7 guys available so nearly a quarter of the teams were able to get one. It's the GMs job to sell his team to potential suitors, if he can't find a way to do that then it's a problem.

As far as term & caphits, just because someone is overpaid doesn't mean he won't help the team. Chicago overpaid to get Campbell and he helped them win a cup. LA took on some pretty bad terms when they got Richards and Carter, but they don't win the cup without them.

If you can get good players on cheaper deals then you can afford to overpay for the missing pieces. For instance if we had the foresight to sign Subban to 5m a year then we would be able to overpay a UFA by 2-3m without worrying.
It's pretty obvious that in most UFA situations, money talks. It's not fair to say, for example, that MB didn't do his job well enough because he couldn't land Clarkson when TO had that insane contract on the table. It's all abut the money, and even if the player is unsure you can bet his agent is pushing him to where the money is too. You sell your team to the player mainly by putting up the big dough.

And say what you want about Subban - whether he's your favorite player or not signing him to a long-term deal going in to last season would have been irresponsible. It ends up that it would have worked out, but it till would have been reckless. I refuse to look at the GM negatively for that. And who knows how Subban's year would have played out had he signed a bigger contract - he may have lost his motivation and not performed like he did. And then all the talk wold be how stupid the GM for handing him the load of cash before he had proven he deserved it.

Being the GM of the Montreal Canadiens is not a job for the faint hearted, for sure.

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07-19-2013, 08:50 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
In effect, yes. But the way one says it has a bearing on what is implied.

If you say it like :"He stood up to Subban's demands' implies that his goal was to lock horns with PK and make him blink.

Stating that "he did not budge on the bridge contract" implies a dedication to a strategy/doctrine regarding player contracts, not a desire to impose one's will over the other.
LOL life's too short to get bogged down in what's 'implied'.

The OP seems to feel that MB is not ballsy enough. Pretty ballsy to hold your ground while your rising star defenceman sits at home holding out for more money than is being offered.

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07-19-2013, 08:52 PM
  #47
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The thing with building through the draft is that it won't work unless you stick with it. After the team is full of good young assets, then you can deal some superfluous futures for immediate help (see Ottawa). We're not there yet and I think it will take at least another 2 years before we are.
How many good young NHL players do you need before you start looking for immediate help?

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07-19-2013, 09:00 PM
  #48
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How many good young NHL players do you need before you start looking for immediate help?
More than we've got. Not many more, but more.

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07-19-2013, 09:02 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
It's pretty obvious that in most UFA situations, money talks. It's not fair to say, for example, that MB didn't do his job well enough because he couldn't land Clarkson when TO had that insane contract on the table. It's all abut the money, and even if the player is unsure you can bet his agent is pushing him to where the money is too. You sell your team to the player mainly by putting up the big dough.

And say what you want about Subban - whether he's your favorite player or not signing him to a long-term deal going in to last season would have been irresponsible. It ends up that it would have worked out, but it till would have been reckless. I refuse to look at the GM negatively for that. And who knows how Subban's year would have played out had he signed a bigger contract - he may have lost his motivation and not performed like he did. And then all the talk wold be how stupid the GM for handing him the load of cash before he had proven he deserved it.

Being the GM of the Montreal Canadiens is not a job for the faint hearted, for sure.
Well the poster I responded to claimed maybe they didn't want to sign with us at all which comes down to selling the team to the player. But I agree money talks. For all the flak T.O gets it's still only basically 1m difference between him and Briere. If we are going to overpay for someone might as well get one that addresses a need and hasn't already started to decline.

I don't want to turn this into a Subban thread, so you can read my posts in that thread. Suffice it to say that Subban was already a #1 D so was worth 5m even if he didn't improve at all. Worst case you end up doing what Boston did with Seguin.

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07-19-2013, 09:09 PM
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JohnnyB11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Well the poster I responded to claimed maybe they didn't want to sign with us at all which comes down to selling the team to the player. But I agree money talks. For all the flak T.O gets it's still only basically 1m difference between him and Briere. If we are going to overpay for someone might as well get one that addresses a need and hasn't already started to decline.

I don't want to turn this into a Subban thread, so you can read my posts in that thread. Suffice it to say that Subban was already a #1 D so was worth 5m even if he didn't improve at all. Worst case you end up doing what Boston did with Seguin.
You can't compare the two contracts by just looking at the yearly salary. Clarkson is 5.25 million per year for a whopping 7 years!! While Briere is 4 million per year for 2 years. That's not a 'basically 1m difference'. Come back and talk about that 3-4 years from now when Clarkson is a huge albatross hanging around TOs neck.

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