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Contrary to popular belief, Paul Holmgren drafts well

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Old
07-19-2013, 11:10 AM
  #51
Hiesenberg
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Detroit is an awful example, they have been pretty much the best drafted teams in the last 20-30 years. Pick a different team to make this argument.

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07-19-2013, 11:17 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
It's true, the Flyers have a great young core, but we're still talking about players coming into the team rather than ones already there. Also, Detroit's list is especially impressive when considering where they picked. They've been able to use their non-firsts to select and develop great prospects, maximizing the value of their assets without having to acquire them by trading their top players (like Richards and Carter).
Like I said, under the definition of "prospect" Detroit has a nice group, better than Philadelphia. But I'll take Philly's young players (say 24 and under) over Detroit any day of the week.

And if you're going to mention the Carter and Richards trades as a way to infuse young talent, you should at least recognize the Pronger trade which prevented the Flyers from amassing almost any young talent in 2009 and 2010. Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa and what turned out to be John Moore (2009 1st #21) and Emerson Etem (2010 1st #29). It works both ways.

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07-19-2013, 02:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Like I said, under the definition of "prospect" Detroit has a nice group, better than Philadelphia. But I'll take Philly's young players (say 24 and under) over Detroit any day of the week.

And if you're going to mention the Carter and Richards trades as a way to infuse young talent, you should at least recognize the Pronger trade which prevented the Flyers from amassing almost any young talent in 2009 and 2010. Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa and what turned out to be John Moore (2009 1st #21) and Emerson Etem (2010 1st #29). It works both ways.
No it didn't. Nobody forced the Flyers to give the Coyotes a 2nd round pick to take Scottie Upshall for Carcillo, or the Flyers to give a 2nd round pick to the Kings to take Denis Gauthier (for no reason, Holmgren felt bad for him and made a bad team decision when he was clearly finished in the NHL). Or a 2nd round pick to Buffalo for Martin Biron so that he knew where the gas stations were.

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07-19-2013, 03:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Hiesenberg View Post
Detroit is an awful example, they have been pretty much the best drafted teams in the last 20-30 years. Pick a different team to make this argument.
Not lately. The last non-role player they drafted was Franzen in 2004. Their reputation was built in the 90's and for some reason, carried over. I don't think Abdelkater, Kindl, or Helm are anything spectacular. McCollum and Ferrraro were busts. And Brendan Smith might be the most overhyped prospect of all as he has just became an NHL regular at 24 after being listed as a top 50 prospect since he was drafted. A first round pick shouldn't take 6 years to make it to the NHL.

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07-19-2013, 03:22 PM
  #55
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Detroit's drafting ability does get overblown. They hit gold at some very convenient times.

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07-19-2013, 03:26 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
No it didn't. Nobody forced the Flyers to give the Coyotes a 2nd round pick to take Scottie Upshall for Carcillo, or the Flyers to give a 2nd round pick to the Kings to take Denis Gauthier (for no reason, Holmgren felt bad for him and made a bad team decision when he was clearly finished in the NHL). Or a 2nd round pick to Buffalo for Martin Biron so that he knew where the gas stations were.
You're just helping my argument. Which was (maybe not aptly put), that if you're going to use the argument that the Flyers had to trade Richards and Carter to infused young talent into the system, then you must acknowledge the trades that took away or prevented young talent from entering the system. I used the Pronger trade as an example, but obviously the Flyers made other trades.

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07-19-2013, 04:45 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Detroit's drafting ability does get overblown. They hit gold at some very convenient times.
Agreed. When one look at the Wings, it is still the old boys that rule and they havnt really gotten any super prospects into their system as of late.

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07-19-2013, 06:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
You're just helping my argument. Which was (maybe not aptly put), that if you're going to use the argument that the Flyers had to trade Richards and Carter to infused young talent into the system, then you must acknowledge the trades that took away or prevented young talent from entering the system. I used the Pronger trade as an example, but obviously the Flyers made other trades.
I don't not acknowledge that, but it sort of rings hollow given that they went on to win a Cup for a another team less than a year after we traded them because "it wasn't going to happen here." And the Pronger trade didn't stop the Flyers from amassing legitimate young talent. The Flyers just continued to either ignore or have terrible drafts, on top of handing out other high picks to other teams to fix mistakes (or in some cases make others worse). One of them was Holmgren bidding against himself for Pronger since he signed Joffrey Lupul to an extension a year too early.

Whether or not you make the trade is a different argument, but the end result of the Pronger trade set the franchise back, either because of what happened to him, or because the Flyers couldn't make up what they lost within the system to nullify the risk.

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07-19-2013, 07:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
I don't not acknowledge that, but it sort of rings hollow given that they went on to win a Cup for a another team less than a year after we traded them because "it wasn't going to happen here." And the Pronger trade didn't stop the Flyers from amassing legitimate young talent. The Flyers just continued to either ignore or have terrible drafts, on top of handing out other high picks to other teams to fix mistakes (or in some cases make others worse). One of them was Holmgren bidding against himself for Pronger since he signed Joffrey Lupul to an extension a year too early.

Whether or not you make the trade is a different argument, but the end result of the Pronger trade set the franchise back, either because of what happened to him, or because the Flyers couldn't make up what they lost within the system to nullify the risk.
Um... they traded two first round draft picks and a conditional third round draft pick as part of the package for him. How can you say that didn't prevent them from getting young talent? That's the most asinine statement I've seen in awhile.

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07-19-2013, 10:07 PM
  #60
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sorry bro

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Originally Posted by CS View Post
Sharp wasn't in the last decade...

Also keep in mind that there are two factors working against the Flyers as we get more modern in draft class...those factors also happen to be working against the entire NHL making for less and less talent discovered in later rounds...

1) the expansion era has added more picks to each round making the draft longer by the end meaning that later picks end up being legitimately being even later picks because of the era

2) with more modern technology in the modern era of hockey, the scouting process has also improved making the draft more top heavy. think about the technology that was just coming out a decade ago...**** think about the technology that was just coming out 5 years ago.

So even if the number of players the Flyers are finding in later rounds is significantly less than 20-30 years ago, it is the same exact way across the board in the NHL.
you are running in circles. you can love homer all you want. again were are his success outside the first round.

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07-19-2013, 10:24 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by panayiotis View Post
you are running in circles. you can love homer all you want. again were are his success outside the first round.
Where is everyone else's?

I want a detailed break down of every organization's success and failure outside the 1st round in the last two decades.

Go.

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07-19-2013, 10:38 PM
  #62
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For what its worth the " Pronger trade" came a whisker from us winning a cup. Its so easy to criticize trades or moves years later giving credence to hindsight is 20-20. There are always many details that get overlooked when one looks at moves years later,Unfortunate injuries etc. This will be year 3 since the Carter/ Richards moves, and those moves may just prove to be good ones in the long run ? Will be an interesting season this year ! I like our club going forward.

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07-19-2013, 11:27 PM
  #63
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he drafts well and has a well maintained flat top

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07-19-2013, 11:33 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Brophy View Post
he drafts well and has a well maintained flat top
LOL, Homer always reminds me of the character Michael Douglas portrayed in the movie " Falling down" . Especially back when he was coaching He looked a lot like that character in the movie.

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Old
07-20-2013, 07:07 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SCOREacek View Post
Um... they traded two first round draft picks and a conditional third round draft pick as part of the package for him. How can you say that didn't prevent them from getting young talent? That's the most asinine statement I've seen in awhile.
What about the other draft picks in the draft? They didn't make the Pronger trade and walk out of the building. They left both 3rd round picks unsigned. If you're trading your top 2 draft picks, can't miss entirely both times, because then it hurts you when you're trying to make trades.

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Old
07-20-2013, 07:36 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Detroit's drafting ability does get overblown. They hit gold at some very convenient times.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. It seems like they have this great prospect pool since the lockout yet they've had the same core the entire time. Like you said they strike gold at perfect times but most of the time their prospects don't pan out. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when they truly have to replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

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Old
07-20-2013, 01:20 PM
  #67
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What 'valuable' NHLers have Detroit drafted in the last ten years... including 1st and 2nd rounders?! (So not guys on 3rd pairing, 3rd & 4th line who are easily replaceable.)

Franzen, Howard and Helm (I know Helm is a 3rd line guy, but IMO he is one of the better ones in the league, and not very easily replaceable.) So three, in ten years.

Flyers have drafted 6-7.

Red Wings draft picks in the last ten years have, combined, approximately 740 points between them. (If we are discounting games as a measure of success of draft picks.)

Flyers draft picks approximately 1780 points in that time.

Of Red Wings picks in rounds 3-7, they have 510 points between them, approximately. (Without Franzen 210.)

Flyers picks in rounds 3-7 have 270.

So the difference between Flyers and Detroits last ten years of 3rd-7th drafting has been Franzen... one player, otherwise their drafting is almost identical in 3rd-7th.

The difference in the Flyers and Detroits 1st-2nd rounder in this time is:

Detroit: ~230 points

Flyers: ~1510 points

So should this debate not be 'why Detroit are so poor at drafting in the early rounds?'

Not, 'why drafting Johan Franzen when he was 25 almost a decade ago makes Detroit infinitely better than the Flyers in drafting in rounds 3-7.'

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Old
07-20-2013, 01:25 PM
  #68
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I dont think anyone has said he's a bad drafting GM. His problem is him giving away 2nds and 3rds like candy.

And Detroit has a lot of good prospects. They don't rush their prospects like we do.

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