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Old
07-20-2013, 09:59 AM
  #101
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
You bring up a really interesting tangent. Assuming Therrien has become a bit of a lame-duck coach within two/three years (which his track-record suggests he will), which of our players take on the Gainey/Robinson roles of de facto coach? Gionta's likely gone. Gorges would be a logical leader-by-example, maybe Plekanec if he's the type to open his mouth. But it's crucial to have that on-ice presence for the young guys to look up to.

Your example of the vets leadership on the '86 Habs makes me wonder what the vibe was like a few years earlier with a locker full of future GMs and coaches, Robinson, Gainey, Lemaire, Sather, Houle, Savard, Tremblay. Could any coach other than Bowman have survived in that exalted group?
Sather? He was there over a decade previous to that Cup and just for one season. He is also the most overrated GM of all time as he is a borderline idiot who was in the right place at the right time.The reason that the rest of those players became management later on in their careers is because of Bowman. He is by a mile the greatest coach ever to coach in the NHL and he is certainly in the discussion when compared to coaches in other sports. Bowman taught them how to be leaders and take responsibility from a young age. He didn't tolerate selfish players (Larouche) and those who didn't buy in were shipped out.

Houle is probably a bad example however as he was just a puppet for Molsons.

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07-20-2013, 10:01 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Nicely done OP

As Fan(s), I crave a blockbuster trade that gets us a top notch proven talent. Rarely would a GM come in and make all kinds of moves unless your name is Mike Keenan let alone a big splash.
I'm really looking forward to seeing Pateryn this coming camp. I think he could supprise the coaching staff and has great size and should be ready for the big boys.
Our D could look like this out of camp since Emelin is out:

Pateryn/Gorges-Markov
PK-Tinordi future top duo IMO
Gorges/Pateryn-Beaulieu
Bouillon

Looking at the forwards, well the top 6 is pretty set with Eller, Galchenyuk, Plekanec, Patches, Bourque and Briere. Gionta and DD slots in in the top 9 with Gallagher. There obviuosly unbalance here and I expect MB to do something about it.
With Prust who can play, fight and kills penelties, that great tool to have and hopefully Moen wakes up. White, Dumont to me are barely worthy of a roster spot but I like them both. Parros is....Parros.
That's cool man, I've nothing to say against your lineup except this one little thing...where's Diaz?

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07-20-2013, 10:06 AM
  #103
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The problem is we had some bad drafts in the past (12 & 13 look good right now though) and that hurt our prospect pool. If MB can continue to cut the pieces that are not long term and turn them into prospects and picks, he'll have more ammo for the big ballsy deals in the future. Right now it would thin our depth for something that probably won't put us over the top.

IMO, the short term pieces to move are Gionta, Moen, Bourque, Bouillon, and Briere. All good players but how much will they help us past the next two seasons? The ballsy moves right now comes with the current core pieces that may or may not help us when our young core is more ready to compete: Markov, Plekanec, Desharnais, Gorges, and Diaz. Moving those players now would be MB's ballsy moves as he'll stock up for our future, and then later move those assets for the big name pieces to put our young core over the top.

His ballsy moves now could weaken the team over the next two seasons as he continues to build depth. Backfire on him and it would cost him his job, so I think we'll continue to see status quo for the next year.

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07-20-2013, 10:10 AM
  #104
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If we overachieved last year, which players were the ones who overachieved to cause it? On paper the overachievers were Subban, Eller, Galcehnyuk, Gallagher, are these guys going to regress next year or the year after? They're the ones you are counting on too make us a contender in 2-3 years so it's unlikely. The only vet who you could argue overachieved was Markov, and that's more a case of not knowing how he would react to all his injuries then it is overachieving.

The biggest reason we finished 2nd was that for most of the season we had 2 number 1 Ds. Which means for 45+min a game we have a first pairing on the ice. The second biggest reason was that we had 3 lines that can score.



If you think in 3 years Beaulieu will be able to play 25min a night against tough competion and finish top-5 in scoring by defenceman you are out to lunch. That's a massive reach.

Tinordi is going to bring offence now, since when.

We already have Gallagher and Gio scoring around 25 goals right now. If Gallagher replaces Gio, who replaces Gallagher's role on the team right now.

Again we have both Galchenyuk and Plekanec. If Galchenyuk replaces Plekanec who replaces the 50pts or so that Galchenyuk can give us from the third line?

It's clear you think almost every prospect will reach their potential and will do so within a few years of making the NHL. That's simply not going to happen, go back and look at what people said about our prospects 5 years ago when we were ranked top-5 by HF, look at the lineups people posted with Higgins, D'Agostini, the Kostitsyns, etc... and count how many are still on our team. We have a good veteran cast and great young group. We need to strike before our veterans start to decline and preferably while are young guys are still on cheap contracts. That gives us the best opportunity.
I think we overachieved but not for any of the reasons that you mentioned. It is very common for teams to over achieve for the first half of the season but then crash back to earth in the second half (see the Laffs)......we simply may have been saved by the bell.

The other reason is one that I haven't heard mentioned yet, but should have been, is our schedule.

There weren't any Western Conference teams on it.....The same conference where the teams are bigger, more physical and generally should provide a tough matchup for the smallest team in the league.

Just because we overachieved doesn't necessarily rule out further improvements this season as the core of this team is young and talented. With the blessing of good health and multiple youngsters taking steps forward in their development (especially Price) we could actually improve and potentially win the conference. While this isn't likely it can't be ruled out with the amount of parity that exists in the league. Unfortunately this can also work against us if things go wrong and start to snowball.

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07-20-2013, 10:10 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Yes, Subban, Tinordi and Beaulieu, with Emelin and Gorges in support. We need another 5th D over the next two years.

Plekanec, obviously.

Yes, a RW for Plekanec is a need. Leblanc could be that guy, if he regains his form on a fully-healed ankle.

But Bournival could turn into a good fourth-line center with potential for shutdown role if one of the top-3 centres is hurt


Tinordi addresses a massive need, so does McCarron, but he might be 3 years away. Or then again, maybe not, Lucic came in young, after all.

More size, and a more consistently good Carey Price.
We have Subban & Markov along with 3 other guys that are top-4 Ds. That's much better then the D core you listed.

Plekanec is not going to stick around to be a #3 center. If that's his role then he will leave as soon as he becomes UFA.

Most prospects don't make an impact if you are counting on a prospect like Leblanc coming in and scoring 25 goals you will be dissapointed most of the time.

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07-20-2013, 10:14 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
You bring up a really interesting tangent. Assuming Therrien has become a bit of a lame-duck coach within two/three years (which his track-record suggests he will), which of our players take on the Gainey/Robinson roles of de facto coach? Gionta's likely gone. Gorges would be a logical leader-by-example, maybe Plekanec if he's the type to open his mouth. But it's crucial to have that on-ice presence for the young guys to look up to.

Your example of the vets leadership on the '86 Habs makes me wonder what the vibe was like a few years earlier with a locker full of future GMs and coaches, Robinson, Gainey, Lemaire, Sather, Houle, Savard, Tremblay, all sitting there in their jock straps, scratching their chins with Stanley Cup-ringed fingers as they contemplate how they'd run things. Could any coach other than Bowman have survived in that exalted group?
Those players simply did not need a coach. But they needed Bowman in the 70's. The 86 cup was Patrick, and the guys from the seventies who learned from Bowman. Fantastic Cup that was.

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07-20-2013, 10:14 AM
  #107
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More than we currently have. What young good AND redundant assets do we currently have?
It's always more than we have. Until the team has no one over 25 years old people will always say we need more young talented players. And when we do we will need better young talented players. And then people will age and become over 25 and we'll have to start thinking about trading them so we can build around the most recent draft class. It seems like a never ending cycle for some.

We have a number of skilled wingers, and a number of defenceman with nhl potential.

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Old
07-20-2013, 10:27 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
I think we overachieved but not for any of the reasons that you mentioned. It is very common for teams to over achieve for the first half of the season but then crash back to earth in the second half (see the Laffs)......we simply may have been saved by the bell.

The other reason is one that I haven't heard mentioned yet, but should have been, is our schedule.

There weren't any Western Conference teams on it.....The same conference where the teams are bigger, more physical and generally should provide a tough matchup for the smallest team in the league.

Just because we overachieved doesn't necessarily rule out further improvements this season as the core of this team is young and talented. With the blessing of good health and multiple youngsters taking steps forward in their development (especially Price) we could actually improve and potentially win the conference. While this isn't likely it can't be ruled out with the amount of parity that exists in the league. Unfortunately this can also work against us if things go wrong and start to snowball.
We had a pretty good record against tough teams like Toronto & Boston. And because the schedule was condensed you could argue that it's just as tough. Also no team in the East had to go up against the "big bad" West so we all had the same advantages, do you really think we are the only team that benefits from not having long grueling road trips out West?

Teams that start off hot and then run out of steam are usually either riding a players hot streak or lady luck. Teams that get regularly outshot but still win games are the ones that are primed for a second half drop. We consistently out played the opposition last year so it was unlikely to have happened to us (Depending on injuries of course).

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07-20-2013, 10:30 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by S Bah View Post
Well drafting McCarron and Crisp was "Ballsy" in my books, in a city like Montreal where every move is dissected like a new strain of Aids. As a matter of fact what I can see happening is getting particular linemates now for Eller, assuming he's the #2 centerman for years to come.

Dallas has Brett Ritchie RW that lit up the scoring in the OHL last year, Dallas has been one of the Habs trading partners lately. Then in this years draft Nick Ritchie LW, might also be available when the Habs draft. Getting those two brothers on a line with either Galchenyuk or Eller, leaving the other centerman with McCarron and Collberg... not a bad alternative.

Considering Brett Ritchie is now 6'4"- 215 lbs., Nick is 6'2"- 200lbs. and growing they would make a very strong statement for the direction the Habs are taking. The path to another Stanley Cup thank you very much.

This isn't dreaming it's well within Bergevin's youth program of building his own team as Ritchie (Brett) has yet to lace up in the NHL. Before that occurs "Let's Make A Deal " Monty Bergevin as he will be called later for his astute moves getting the Habs to the promised land.
Jim nill isnt neuwindyk...he's not gonna give up ritchie....thats the kind of player everyone wants.....gonna have to be a big overpayment for him to be let go.

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Old
07-20-2013, 10:31 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
I have found that by surrounding myself with people who say what they mean and don't count on implications to get their message across leads to a much easier and happier life.
This is extremely wise. Now: Try Asia to see what implication and not direct conversation means. You have seen nothing yet. There is no direct conversation here, only ****ing lies.

And if you have it, sell Asia stock now because of it. Now.

Well done on realizing this lesson so young.

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07-20-2013, 10:35 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
If we overachieved last year, which players were the ones who overachieved to cause it? On paper the overachievers were Subban, Eller, Galcehnyuk, Gallagher, are these guys going to regress next year or the year after? They're the ones you are counting on too make us a contender in 2-3 years so it's unlikely. The only vet who you could argue overachieved was Markov, and that's more a case of not knowing how he would react to all his injuries then it is overachieving.

The biggest reason we finished 2nd was that for most of the season we had 2 number 1 Ds. Which means for 45+min a game we have a first pairing on the ice. The second biggest reason was that we had 3 lines that can score.



If you think in 3 years Beaulieu will be able to play 25min a night against tough competion and finish top-5 in scoring by defenceman you are out to lunch. That's a massive reach.

Tinordi is going to bring offence now, since when.

We already have Gallagher and Gio scoring around 25 goals right now. If Gallagher replaces Gio, who replaces Gallagher's role on the team right now.

Again we have both Galchenyuk and Plekanec. If Galchenyuk replaces Plekanec who replaces the 50pts or so that Galchenyuk can give us from the third line?

It's clear you think almost every prospect will reach their potential and will do so within a few years of making the NHL. That's simply not going to happen, go back and look at what people said about our prospects 5 years ago when we were ranked top-5 by HF, look at the lineups people posted with Higgins, D'Agostini, the Kostitsyns, etc... and count how many are still on our team. We have a good veteran cast and great young group. We need to strike before our veterans start to decline and preferably while are young guys are still on cheap contracts. That gives us the best opportunity.
Individual stats in a team game give a very incomplete picture. I think a lot of things just fell in to place for the Habs last season, and they benefitted from a shortened season and scheduling.

As far as being totally out to lunch in projecting Beaulieu into a Markov replacement in 3 years time, I disagree. One needs to look no further than PK Subban. I doubt there were many who were predicting 3 years ago that he would rise to where he is now. Yet there he is, Norris Trophy winner. Beaulieu may or may not pan out as well as we hope, but it's not ludicrous at all to think that at some point he may be able to fill Markov's shoes.

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Old
07-20-2013, 10:38 AM
  #112
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LOL I like that! If everyone would say what they mean properly the world would bea much better place. However, I disagree that people fall in to one of those two categories, there is a lot of grey in between the black and white.
There is shades of greyness in the results. I doubt everyone is just A or B. But the intent? The intent has to be absolute. Either you communicate in the purpose of being clear and straightforward, or you just don't care a fig about being understood properly. Whether or not you succeed at it is a bit irrelevant; just try to do your best.

My outburst was in reply of someone saying "who cares about what is being implied, life is too short". That is a backward, anti-intellectual thing to say.


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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
In effect, yes. But the way one says it has a bearing on what is implied.

The problem with implying something is that it is left wide open to interpretation. In your post, you stated that 'If you say it like :"He stood up to Subban's demands' implies that his goal was to lock horns with PK and make him blink.' Stating that "he did not budge on the bridge contract" implies a dedication to a strategy/doctrine regarding player contracts, not a desire to impose one's will over the other.

Don't you think one could be validated in feeling that if MB stood up to Subban's demands, it could be implied that MB was dedicated to a strategy/doctrine regarding player contracts? Thus, in his dedication, he was standing up to Subban's demands, rather than trying to lock horns?
Oh, people can believe either without problem. Again, I don't mind that people believe one side or the other of the argument.

Someone described event X with description A, while someone else used description B. Someone protested "Why would it make a difference, event X still happened?", I explained the importance of subtelty when one tries to make an explanation, and the best reply I get back is "who cares about that!".



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This is where trying to come up with what's implied in a statement can easily lead to an assumption that is incorrect. And you know the old saying about why you should never assume, right?
Agreed in principle. But again, without a direct access to MB's thought process, we have no way of knowing what was his genuine purpose. We can only make an educated guess regarding what we think his purpose was during these negotiations.

The reason someone would claim "he enforced the bridge contract" compared to "he stood up to Subban" is that the first claim is backable by the information we got.

Plus, it shines a better light on our future. Implication of that conclusion is that ALL prospects are going to get a 2-year bridge contract, regardless of who they are. It's team policy, there is no way out. Because if you give ONE player a way out, and you do not apply the same to another player, the other player will understand that he is seen as lesser than the first player.

What would have happened if Subban had got his 5 year contract but Chuckie only 2? Chuckie would have got the impression that he was less important than Subban. Subban would have became the benchmark of prospects. By imposing the bridge contract over EVERYONE, you dodge that bullet and remove that consideration.


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Only MB knows what his own thought process was. But in light of that I think we hae to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to lock horns with PK for some unknown reason, but rather trying to do the best he can in his job position, which would be following a strategy on player contracts regardless of the individual player.

I have found that by surrounding myself with people who say what they mean and don't count on implications to get their message across leads to a much easier and happier life.
Well, how you say what you mean is as important as what you say. I don't necessarily seek a double-purpose in everything, but description of these events, one way or another, just add so much more meanings.

Kind of like talking about the American Civil War vs. Aggression of the North. Or that sort of things.

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And to close, and get back on topic, I think MB has shown sufficient ballsyness for me to date. To me he has a clear plan, despite the fact that some may disagree based on some of the moves he has made. Now is not the time to overspend a la Clarkson. The time may come, but it's not here yet. Perhaps at that time we will see how big his balls are lol.
I don't know if he is... balsy. But I know MB has nerves of steel.

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07-20-2013, 10:44 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
There is shades of greyness in the results. I doubt everyone is just A or B. But the intent? The intent has to be absolute. Either you communicate in the purpose of being clear and straightforward, or you just don't care a fig about being understood properly. Whether or not you succeed at it is a bit irrelevant; just try to do your best.

My outburst was in reply of someone saying "who cares about what is being implied, life is too short". That is a backward, anti-intellectual thing to say.




Oh, people can believe either without problem. Again, I don't mind that people believe one side or the other of the argument.

Someone described event X with description A, while someone else used description B. Someone protested "Why would it make a difference, event X still happened?", I explained the importance of subtelty when one tries to make an explanation, and the best reply I get back is "who cares about that!".





Agreed in principle. But again, without a direct access to MB's thought process, we have no way of knowing what was his genuine purpose. We can only make an educated guess regarding what we think his purpose was during these negotiations.

The reason someone would claim "he enforced the bridge contract" compared to "he stood up to Subban" is that the first claim is backable by the information we got.

Plus, it shines a better light on our future. Implication of that conclusion is that ALL prospects are going to get a 2-year bridge contract, regardless of who they are. It's team policy, there is no way out. Because if you give ONE player a way out, and you do not apply the same to another player, the other player will understand that he is seen as lesser than the first player.

What would have happened if Subban had got his 5 year contract but Chuckie only 2? Chuckie would have got the impression that he was less important than Subban. Subban would have became the benchmark of prospects. By imposing the bridge contract over EVERYONE, you dodge that bullet and remove that consideration.




Well, how you say what you mean is as important as what you say. I don't necessarily seek a double-purpose in everything, but description of these events, one way or another, just add so much more meanings.

Kind of like talking about the American Civil War vs. Aggression of the North. Or that sort of things.



I don't know if he is... balsy. But I know MB has nerves of steel.
Cool post, dude. I agree - MB has nerves of steel. And that's what we need right now. As MB continues to do his job, I'll just chill out and watch it unfold.

Have a wonderful day.

Have a

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07-20-2013, 10:45 AM
  #114
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Personally, I am not entirely clear on what Bergevin's plan is. His narratives to the media indicates one thing, but I find that his moves indicate another

Bergevin at this point looks like he's a GM who struggling with balancing his ideology of character, drafting and cap crunching with the fact that the Canadiens are not a bottom dweller, but rather a team which can be competitive with a few shrewd moves.

I think it's too early to tell right now. We can judge individual moves, but the whole picture is still fuzzy and nebulous because he's only been with the team a year.
agreed.

I thought his initial moves pointed toward a pretty clear vision/plan... but post-lockout there have been some head scratching decisions that don't seem to add up or build toward any consistent approach.

quite possible that the success of the team last season created an added layer of pressure that he, as a rookie in the role, isn't completely prepared to handle. In that case, maybe it's a good thing that he avoids any "swing for the fences" type decisions for now...

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I think you hit it right on the head here Andy. The fact that we went from a bottom dweller to a playoff contender so quickly, has got to have made things a bit more difficult for Bergevin. Or at the very least, has caused him to alter his original plans.

I still see Bergevin going with his initial plan (building through the draft). But now due to different circumstances, he's altered that a bit, and started to look more to the present, example signing Briere. Something I couldn't see him doing if we would have missed the playoffs again this season.

I can't see any block buster trades in the near future. Since I don't believe we're quite ready to do what the Kings, Blackhawks, or even the Penguins have done recently. Though like you said, Bergevin has only been in charge for a year. So it's still way too early to try and predict what the big picture will look like.
don't know about that (bolded)...

roster-wise, Briere more or less amounts to a replacement for cole (via ryder), a roster slot (productive winger) that he inherited and has simply tweaked.

frustrating thing on that one is that Cole, as much as his contract was unpleasant, was a better fit at his cap hit than Briere is for us even at 500k less. I suppose the case could be made that adding a 3rd in the process makes it a good asset move, but then that makes it even less so a "looking at the present" type roster adjustment.


What I'm more curious about is wether the Briere signing was all MB, or wether it was heavily pushed by Molson... in the VL frenzy, Molson commented publicly about the immense fan response to bringing in VL... when we lost out on that, did Molson send word that getting the next "best" french canadian UFA was a priority?
wouldn't be shocked if that played a role, because otherwise, with what UFA's are/were out there and what we needed roster-wise in the short term, it's very hard to justify the Briere signing... even less so in trying to match that up with MB's other roster decisions since cmoing on.


to answer the OP... would like to see MB take a more aggressive approach to improving the team (be it by targeting key assets at the pick, prospect or NHL player level), but if worst case scenario ends up that he's too patient and eventually gets canned as a result, that will still be better than having a Gainey-esque situation where the ballsy moves are absolute screw ups!

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07-20-2013, 10:59 AM
  #115
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That's cool man, I've nothing to say against your lineup except this one little thing...where's Diaz?
Diaz is trade bait. We have Subban and Markov for offence, Beaulieu as backup.

We don't need Diaz. He was productive on the PP while Subban was out, but pretty much redundant after that. He is OK defensively, much better than Weber, for instance, but Diaz is a tradeable asset, not core at all.

Only thing I am not sure of is if Diaz is more tradeable with an extension of say 2 years than now, with only 1 year to go until UFA.

I would say move him for the best "sandpaper with some talent" that we can find.

I also will go against the grain here and say that I think the Habs will do very well with Tinordi and Drewiske worked into the lineup, with Cube perhaps falling back to 7th D when Emelin returns. Beaulieu would be in Hamilton, called up if Subban or Markov go down.

Subban
Markov
Gorges
Emelin
Tinordi
Drewiske
Bouillon

Why Tinordi and Drewiske? Because teams need size on D, and these two will be fine once they are properly worked into our system. Tinordi is a future top level D in my opinion, and Drewiske has more reach and better ability to handle tough forechecking than Bouillon.

So again, my position on the coming UFAs is to re-sign Emelin and to trade Diaz for a return that addresses our needs, perhaps a good-sized checking winger for instance.

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07-20-2013, 11:09 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
It's always more than we have. Until the team has no one over 25 years old people will always say we need more young talented players. And when we do we will need better young talented players. And then people will age and become over 25 and we'll have to start thinking about trading them so we can build around the most recent draft class. It seems like a never ending cycle for some.

We have a number of skilled wingers, and a number of defenceman with nhl potential.
Which of those young skilled wingers and dmen have proven anything and which have enough trade value to get big time players in return?

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07-20-2013, 11:09 AM
  #117
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We have Subban & Markov along with 3 other guys that are top-4 Ds. That's much better then the D core you listed.

Plekanec is not going to stick around to be a #3 center. If that's his role then he will leave as soon as he becomes UFA.

Most prospects don't make an impact if you are counting on a prospect like Leblanc coming in and scoring 25 goals you will be dissapointed most of the time.
The question was where would we be in 2-3 years. In 2-3 years Markov will be gone, and Plekanec will still be under contract, being a very valuable 3rd center that is really good enough for a higher role. Which is why I think we can contend in 2-3 years.

You can't simultaneously criticize my time horizon for not including Markov, then tell me that Pleks will be done/gone, when Pleks has two more years under contract than Markov does.

As for Leblanc, you are right that he does not project to 25 goals per season within the next 2 years. He may not even stick in the NHL! But he would be my only hope, among players currently in the system, for a top 9 RW that could play a two-way game. Chris Thomas may make it to the bigs, but not really in a checking role, he is a sniper instead. Bournival is not a RW, and Dumont doesn't have the vision to be a top 9, he is just an energy guy with a small frame that can contribute in limited ways.

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07-20-2013, 11:21 AM
  #118
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I really wonder why people keep writing off Diaz for the long-term. The guy proved to be extremely effective up until his commotion, and now he's just trade bait?!


Man, people forget quickly. I also remember how early on in the season Budaj couldn't win a game to save his life, to believe some comments on this board, and later on they wanted him in the net instead of Price.

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07-20-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I really wonder why people keep writing off Diaz for the long-term. The guy proved to be extremely effective up until his commotion, and now he's just trade bait?!


Man, people forget quickly. I also remember how early on in the season Budaj couldn't win a game to save his life, to believe some comments on this board, and later on they wanted him in the net instead of Price.
Just another day on the HFBoards Habs page!!

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07-20-2013, 11:30 AM
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The question was where would we be in 2-3 years. In 2-3 years Markov will be gone, and Plekanec will still be under contract, being a very valuable 3rd center that is really good enough for a higher role. Which is why I think we can contend in 2-3 years.

You can't simultaneously criticize my time horizon for not including Markov, then tell me that Pleks will be done/gone, when Pleks has two more years under contract than Markov does.

As for Leblanc, you are right that he does not project to 25 goals per season within the next 2 years. He may not even stick in the NHL! But he would be my only hope, among players currently in the system, for a top 9 RW that could play a two-way game. Chris Thomas may make it to the bigs, but not really in a checking role, he is a sniper instead. Bournival is not a RW, and Dumont doesn't have the vision to be a top 9, he is just an energy guy with a small frame that can contribute in limited ways.
I assumed you meant we would be a contender in 2-3 years and then stay a contender for at least a few years. Pleckanec has 3 years left, if he's the 3rd line center at that time he will hit the UFA market. So we are talking about maybe 1 year where you plan for us to be a contender and actually have him.

Hoping that Beaulieu becomes a top 10-15 defenceman in the league in your 2-3 year timeframe is crazy. And even if he does that's basically a lateral move when we lose Markov.

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07-20-2013, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I really wonder why people keep writing off Diaz for the long-term. The guy proved to be extremely effective up until his commotion, and now he's just trade bait?!


Man, people forget quickly. I also remember how early on in the season Budaj couldn't win a game to save his life, to believe some comments on this board, and later on they wanted him in the net instead of Price.
He's also 1 year away from UFA status so there's a good chance that he walks. Especially if he's stuck behind Subban and Markov.

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07-20-2013, 11:33 AM
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He's also 1 year away from UFA status so there's a good chance that he walks. Especially if he's stuck behind Subban and Markov.
Except Diaz could be a solid asset on the long term, while Markov's time is counted.

Diaz proved he can play without a babysitter, while Markov will have to rely on his partner more and more defensively.

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07-20-2013, 11:35 AM
  #123
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Which of those young skilled wingers and dmen have proven anything and which have enough trade value to get big time players in return?
We have a winning, playoff team. By definition, that means there are plenty of good players with excellent value. Let's rope off our untouchable guys, Subban, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Price, maybe Tinordi and Beaulieu, depending how they develop. The rest are 'touchable', given the right return. And yes, I think there's enough trade bait there to attract any GM.

I'm as guilty as anyone of getting attached to our roster, but the reality is that having balls means accepting that getting a big asset requires trading away a big asset in return. Sure, if our prospects develop brilliantly then we're good to go with some minor tweaks. But realistically, even with a good core and good prospects, we'll need to acquire someone from outside to become great. And when we do, I hope we get the right guy, not just the guy who's available. That takes either a load of cash for a big UFA or a major trade involving some of our favourite players.

It'll hurt, it'll cause some major arguments, it'll be a huge risk. But the willingness to take those risks is what separates the men from the boys, and the 1st-round teams from the Cup champions.

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07-20-2013, 11:36 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I really wonder why people keep writing off Diaz for the long-term. The guy proved to be extremely effective up until his commotion, and now he's just trade bait?!


Man, people forget quickly. I also remember how early on in the season Budaj couldn't win a game to save his life, to believe some comments on this board, and later on they wanted him in the net instead of Price.
Diaz would be awesome if we had close to no average sized D's in this team, he doesn't bring much of what we don't already have. He's effective, but not necessarily dominant defensively and physically, which IMO is what we need in our back end (no homer).

Diaz, much like all the manlets in our team, is victim of our lack of diversity in the lineup.

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07-20-2013, 11:38 AM
  #125
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Which of those young skilled wingers and dmen have proven anything and which have enough trade value to get big time players in return?
Depends what you mean by proven anything, people don't trade for prospects because they've proven to be NHL players, they trade for the potential they have. Our prospects have a lot of potential. Would Anaheim have taken Beaulieu, Leblanc and a 1st for Ryan? It's similar value to what Ottawa gave, it would all depend on which prospects Anaheim liked the most. Hell they don't have much center depth so if they were looking for production right now they may have been interested in DD.

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