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Old
01-10-2004, 10:13 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKordicsFist
Well, we just have to agree to disagree. While you say how bad Boosh was you don't seem to be saying Cechmanek was great. Boosh was as good as Cechmanek and deserved the starts based on his past playoff run.

Your take on Lindros, however is hilarious. It must make it easier to believe these guys are robots who either perform or are broken rather than see that there is a very psychological side to this. Nobody went around blaming Lindros, except me and a few other fans. Clarke didn't blame him. The team didn't blame him. He talked s**t about the team. Took his issues to the press instead of the source. The team had gone through 2 rounds of playoffs, including a five overtime game. They were up 3 to 1 on the Devils and yet you believe they were on the verge of falling apart? They stopped as soon as it was announced Lindros would return to the team. The next game, WITHOUT lindros, they played very poorly. All the fire and grit seemingly vanished. They stood back and let Lindros try to win it all since Clarke basically told them they weren't good enough. But I guess Barber was a great coach who had the worst possible luck with players that Hitchcock seems to be able to win with.
People get lost in the game and forget that there are human being involved. You made very good points, the psychological side plays a lot into on-ice performance. That's why they have the old saying "choking under pressure." That has nothing to do with a playing sucking or not, it has to do with what they can deal with in their head. The same with playoff experience... Teams don't want guys just because they have played in the games... a hockey game is a hockey game... they want guys who have handled those intense situations. About Lindros... for me to talk bad about him is saying a lot, because he was my favorite hockey player growing up, and I can't stand the guy any more.

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01-10-2004, 10:19 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by JCD
Huh? Again, I think people should really go look at the actual game logs and see for themselves.
http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/player...ogs/2001/19760

Boucher had won all of 3 of his last 13 starts before Barber rode Cechmanek into the play-offs. He started every game in March. Boucher was given more than enough time to 'work it out' and simply stunk. Had Boucher not played so poorly, we could have won the division. The only thing he was more consistent than Cechmanek at was stringing together winless streaks.

Cechmanek did come back shakey, but even a shakey Cechmanek was better than the egg Boucher had laid for the previous month+. Cechmanek was the clear choice to start heading into the post-season. Boucher was ice cold and hadn't looked good since January.

As for the post-season, come on... Cechmanek was solid against Ottawa that year. In the 4 games he played, the Flyers scored only one goal for Cechmanek, and Cechmanek made that stand up a 1-0 OT win. Our only win of the series.
Judging from that link, those statistics only support my argument that the team gave him no offensive support.

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01-10-2004, 11:15 AM
  #53
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Boosh played 1 game earlier this year on Oct 16 against Tampa Bay and lost Dogs lost 5 - 1. That was his ONLY chance. After that game he was designated the 3rd goaltender behind Burke and Bierk. He wasn't even practicing with the team. When Bierk was injured Boosh played backup and started only when the Coyotes had back to back games a day apart. Bob Francis did not want Burke to get fatigued. So Boosh started perhaps every 5th or 6th game, then sat again for another 5 or 6 etc. This is were I anticipated that he would play poorly because he couldn't get into any kinda rhythm. He played very well and very consistently during those starts and improved with each game. Most of us were expecting him to fail and we anticpated losing those games where he started. You have to give the guy credit for persevering. What seems to have changed is his focus. He plays more relaxed and keeps his concentration for the whole game. He used to give up a bad goal every game. Now he does not. I get the impression from his comments that he worried too much and was never able to enjoy playing while in Phillidelphia. Now that he brought himself back from the brink, he is enjoying the moment and plays very relaxed. But this team is really focused on getting wins. It very much is a team thing to get the shutouts.

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01-10-2004, 12:11 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
I didn't see you mention Boucher at fault for the "collapse" in the NJ series? Was he? Of course not. I don't care if Boucher gave up 16 goals a game the next year, if the team wouldn't score for him, it wouldn't matter. Stats are misleading... the biggest key to making judgement calls are actually seeing the games. They have no statistics for "unstoppable shots" or "defensive breakdowns"... when a team plays poorly, focus shifts to the goaltenders because they're the ones the statistics fall on.
I saw virtually very game of those two seasons along with evey play-off game. Boucher's stats are no mirage. He did not give his team a chance to win, which is the primary role of a goalie. It wasn't unstoppable shots or defensive breakdowns, it was a bad goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
About a "flash in the pan"... so what is he now? Two flashes in the pan? He's a good goaltender who, as Bob Clarke Fan Club stated, was ruined by "us." The pressure in Philadelphia (in all four of the major sports) is intense. The Flyers seems to have a history of throwing away players too soon. Ruslan Fedotenko was one of my favorites, and he's not a super star in Tampa right now, but he's doing a LOT better than the secondary players on this team. Why do we still have Gagne? He is injury prone, he is NOT scoring, his shooting % is ****, which means he is not a finisher. And I don't mean to single out Gagne, but the fact that Clarke gives up on young talent too fast in wrong cases, and keeps other young talent around too long. Another example, although not young talent, Cechmanek, he was kept in Philly one year too long... he should have been traded after his hissy fit in the Ottawa series... granted, he had a right, the team sucked... but it's a TEAM game, and it's not about one player any more than the other... just look at New Jersey.
Boucher is the same thing he was back for us: a guy who could string together some great runs. When on, he was/is great.

Like i said from the onset, it is the good goalies, the starting goalies, who perform like that over the course of months and not weeks.

Boucher has yet to do so. This may be his year, but up until now all he has is a couple good runs interspersed with prolonged periods of mediocrity.

He wasn't ruined by Philly, he was ruined by inconsistency.

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01-10-2004, 12:27 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKordicsFist
Well, we just have to agree to disagree. While you say how bad Boosh was you don't seem to be saying Cechmanek was great. Boosh was as good as Cechmanek and deserved the starts based on his past playoff run.
So even though Boucher was playing terribly, because he had play-off success 2 years back he should have started? Come on, that makes no sense. Regardless, goaltending wasn't the reason we lost against Ottawa.

Boucher was given ample opportunity to take the starting job and failed. I honestly can't see how anybody who watched him here can say otherwise.

Agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanKordicsFist
Your take on Lindros, however is hilarious. It must make it easier to believe these guys are robots who either perform or are broken rather than see that there is a very psychological side to this. Nobody went around blaming Lindros, except me and a few other fans. Clarke didn't blame him. The team didn't blame him. He talked s**t about the team. Took his issues to the press instead of the source. The team had gone through 2 rounds of playoffs, including a five overtime game. They were up 3 to 1 on the Devils and yet you believe they were on the verge of falling apart? They stopped as soon as it was announced Lindros would return to the team. The next game, WITHOUT lindros, they played very poorly. All the fire and grit seemingly vanished. They stood back and let Lindros try to win it all since Clarke basically told them they weren't good enough. But I guess Barber was a great coach who had the worst possible luck with players that Hitchcock seems to be able to win with.
I love how people forget just what we did accomplish that year. People make it out like the Flyers were some great juggernaut until Lindros returned to sink the ship.

Take an honest look back at the series.

We beat the 8th seat Sabres. That isn't noteworthy, a 2nd seat bumping off the 7th seat is expected. Especially when that 7th seat is missing their #2 d-man for the series, lost their #1 d-man to suspension, and had their #1 center playing well below par due to illness. Even then, had LeClair's through-the-net goal been called back, it could have gone either way. We beat a battered 7th seat in a hard fought battle. We get credit for not choking, but it isn't like we knocked off a top opponent.

Then who did we face? The 7th seat Pens. Normally when the 2nd seat faces the 7th/8th seat teams, they are expected to crush them. We scraped by. Had the Pens scored that OT goal and not us, it too could have been a different series.

Then we faced the Devils. The first quality opponent of the post-season. Brodeur laid a couple stinkers early in the series, putting the Devils down 3-1. After that, the Flyers mailed in their effort. All the fire was gone. Rather than give any accountability to the players that decided to quit, the blame goes to Lindros instead. I would give that theory some degree of validity, if it wasn't for the fact that those same players that quit in 00, did so again in 01 against the Sabres, again in 02 against the Sens and yet again in 03. When the same stunt is pulled year after year, stop looking for scape goats and try putting some accountability on the ones pissing away their chances.

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Old
01-10-2004, 12:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capn89
Judging from that link, those statistics only support my argument that the team gave him no offensive support.
Quite the contrary really. They prove that Boucher was given essentially the same support as Cechmanek (about .2 goal difference) but was no where near as effective. With Cechmanek in net, Flyers were the best team in the league (literally, look at his win %), with Boucher, they were barely .500. That is a cold, hard fact.

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Old
01-10-2004, 01:24 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
So even though Boucher was playing terribly, because he had play-off success 2 years back he should have started? Come on, that makes no sense. Regardless, goaltending wasn't the reason we lost against Ottawa.

Boucher was given ample opportunity to take the starting job and failed. I honestly can't see how anybody who watched him here can say otherwise.

Agree to disagree.



I love how people forget just what we did accomplish that year. People make it out like the Flyers were some great juggernaut until Lindros returned to sink the ship.

Take an honest look back at the series.

We beat the 8th seat Sabres. That isn't noteworthy, a 2nd seat bumping off the 7th seat is expected. Especially when that 7th seat is missing their #2 d-man for the series, lost their #1 d-man to suspension, and had their #1 center playing well below par due to illness. Even then, had LeClair's through-the-net goal been called back, it could have gone either way. We beat a battered 7th seat in a hard fought battle. We get credit for not choking, but it isn't like we knocked off a top opponent.

Then who did we face? The 7th seat Pens. Normally when the 2nd seat faces the 7th/8th seat teams, they are expected to crush them. We scraped by. Had the Pens scored that OT goal and not us, it too could have been a different series.

Then we faced the Devils. The first quality opponent of the post-season. Brodeur laid a couple stinkers early in the series, putting the Devils down 3-1. After that, the Flyers mailed in their effort. All the fire was gone. Rather than give any accountability to the players that decided to quit, the blame goes to Lindros instead. I would give that theory some degree of validity, if it wasn't for the fact that those same players that quit in 00, did so again in 01 against the Sabres, again in 02 against the Sens and yet again in 03. When the same stunt is pulled year after year, stop looking for scape goats and try putting some accountability on the ones pissing away their chances.



Some of us don't blame Lindros and are also of the "opinion" that the Flyers were beaten by better teams...rather than just laying blame on a few "quitters."

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01-10-2004, 01:48 PM
  #58
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There are still big ????? remaining. But ya gotta have excellent goaltending in the playoffs. There seemed to be no shortage of goaltenders available. Clarke picked up Hackett, Calgary picked up Kiprusoff. Looked what happened to Calgary sitting at 12 - 13 - 3 - 3 after missing the playoffs last year. It's a good thing you have Esche but no one will know whether or not he can take this team thru the playoffs. There are still some questions about Boosh so only time will tell. But Hackett did not answer any goalie questions in Philadelphia. I would presently have more confidence in Boosh than in Hackett or Czechmanek. Your team has everything .... scoring, defense, size, skill, coaching. The only thing missing is goaltending. Let's hope Esche is da man.

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01-10-2004, 04:26 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waldo
There are still big ????? remaining. But ya gotta have excellent goaltending in the playoffs. There seemed to be no shortage of goaltenders available. Clarke picked up Hackett, Calgary picked up Kiprusoff. Looked what happened to Calgary sitting at 12 - 13 - 3 - 3 after missing the playoffs last year. It's a good thing you have Esche but no one will know whether or not he can take this team thru the playoffs. There are still some questions about Boosh so only time will tell. But Hackett did not answer any goalie questions in Philadelphia. I would presently have more confidence in Boosh than in Hackett or Czechmanek. Your team has everything .... scoring, defense, size, skill, coaching. The only thing missing is goaltending. Let's hope Esche is da man.
Esche isn't da-man... I think I'll take the 'anti-boucher fan' modus operandi right now and just say he stunk. He got no goal support, but that doesn't matter, Esche is horrible. That was sarcastic by the way.

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