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The "Balls or No Balls" thread

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Old
07-20-2013, 11:39 AM
  #126
Lshap
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Except Diaz could be a solid asset on the long term, while Markov's time is counted.

Diaz proved he can play without a babysitter, while Markov will have to rely on his partner more and more defensively.
Yeah, I don't know why Diaz is considered expendable around here. Fast-forward six months and I'm hoping he proves what a smart, efficient and productive player he is, just as he appeared to be before getting hurt.

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07-20-2013, 11:46 AM
  #127
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Diaz would be awesome if we had close to no average sized D's in this team, he doesn't bring much of what we don't already have. He's effective, but not necessarily dominant defensively and physically, which IMO is what we need in our back end (no homer).

Diaz, much like all the manlets in our team, is victim of our lack of diversity in the lineup.
Except that Diaz is not exactly the person to get rid of if you really want to increase our lineup's defensive effectiveness. Like you said, he's effective defensively, has high IQ there and get the puck out rather quickly.

Do you want to see if Bergevin has balls? I'll tell you straight up:

Trading away Markov and signing Diaz is the ballsy move. That's the gamble.

Otherwise you just keep a (still effective, but) declining defenseman for.. how long? How long do you think Markov can still be part of our top 4?

He'll always be effective on the power play, obviously.

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07-20-2013, 11:47 AM
  #128
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Sather? He was there over a decade previous to that Cup and just for one season. He is also the most overrated GM of all time as he is a borderline idiot who was in the right place at the right time.The reason that the rest of those players became management later on in their careers is because of Bowman. He is by a mile the greatest coach ever to coach in the NHL and he is certainly in the discussion when compared to coaches in other sports. Bowman taught them how to be leaders and take responsibility from a young age. He didn't tolerate selfish players (Larouche) and those who didn't buy in were shipped out.

Houle is probably a bad example however as he was just a puppet for Molsons.
Hey, no argument that half those guys weren't geniuses. I just found it remarkable that this one dynasty was responsible for so much influence on and off the ice. Has there ever been another team packed with so many future HoF players, GMs and coaches on its roster? The Canadiens of that era were like a secret Masonic lodge that went forth to control the NHL.

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07-20-2013, 12:03 PM
  #129
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Except that Diaz is not exactly the person to get rid of if you really want to increase our lineup's defensive effectiveness. Like you said, he's effective defensively, has high IQ there and get the puck out rather quickly.

Do you want to see if Bergevin has balls? I'll tell you straight up:

Trading away Markov and signing Diaz is the ballsy move. That's the gamble.

Otherwise you just keep a (still effective, but) declining defenseman for.. how long? How long do you think Markov can still be part of our top 4?

He'll always be effective on the power play, obviously.
The issue that I have with Diaz is while he's effective defensively, I just don't see him being a #3 like Markov is. Not yet anyway.

Last year what I saw from Diaz was growth in his defensive game, but he's still prone to mistakes when the opposing team's forecheck is more aggressive and punishing, like most of our defence. That's why I can't see him playing Markov's minutes and I prefer him playing on a less important role 5 on 5. Perhaps a #4, #5 or #6 PMD who can QB a PP.

Can he directly replace Markov? I don't know. But he can certainly be part of our future D staff if the right moves are made.

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07-20-2013, 12:11 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
The issue that I have with Diaz is while he's effective defensively, I just don't see him being a #3 like Markov is. Not yet anyway.

Last year what I saw from Diaz was growth in his defensive game, but he's still prone to mistakes when the opposing team's forecheck is more aggressive and punishing, like most of our defence. That's why I can't see him playing Markov's minutes and I prefer him playing on a less important role 5 on 5. Perhaps a #4, #5 or #6 PMD who can QB a PP.

Can he directly replace Markov? I don't know. But he can certainly be part of our future D staff if the right moves are made.
Replacing Markov with Diaz doesn't mean handing over all of Markov's minutes. We still need a solid defensive D to withstand most of the minutes. Tinordi might be that man within the next 2 years.

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07-20-2013, 12:12 PM
  #131
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If we overachieved last year, which players were the ones who overachieved to cause it? On paper the overachievers were Subban, Eller, Galcehnyuk, Gallagher, are these guys going to regress next year or the year after? They're the ones you are counting on too make us a contender in 2-3 years so it's unlikely. The only vet who you could argue overachieved was Markov, and that's more a case of not knowing how he would react to all his injuries then it is overachieving.

The biggest reason we finished 2nd was that for most of the season we had 2 number 1 Ds. Which means for 45+min a game we have a first pairing on the ice. The second biggest reason was that we had 3 lines that can score.



If you think in 3 years Beaulieu will be able to play 25min a night against tough competion and finish top-5 in scoring by defenceman you are out to lunch. That's a massive reach.

Tinordi is going to bring offence now, since when.

We already have Gallagher and Gio scoring around 25 goals right now. If Gallagher replaces Gio, who replaces Gallagher's role on the team right now.

Again we have both Galchenyuk and Plekanec. If Galchenyuk replaces Plekanec who replaces the 50pts or so that Galchenyuk can give us from the third line?

It's clear you think almost every prospect will reach their potential and will do so within a few years of making the NHL. That's simply not going to happen, go back and look at what people said about our prospects 5 years ago when we were ranked top-5 by HF, look at the lineups people posted with Higgins, D'Agostini, the Kostitsyns, etc... and count how many are still on our team. We have a good veteran cast and great young group. We need to strike before our veterans start to decline and preferably while are young guys are still on cheap contracts. That gives us the best opportunity.
Our vets are already declining, Markov put up points this year yes but if you watched him defensively he was behind a step. Gionta won't start the year and who knows when he's coming back and in what shape he will be when he comes back. And yes when comparing Tinordi to Gorges try watching them play instea of looking up stats... Tinordi brings a good first pass and a hard shot to the equation. Galchenyuk needs top 6 minutes this year his development will stagnate if he's used as depth any longer he should play wing this year on the second line with Eller and Briere and next year if possible we move Pleky for a good return to let Eller play 1st line shutdown and gally can C the second line.

I'm really sorry if you're old and/or sick and won't see a cup win unless
it's in the next 2 years, but this team is not cup ready now and we are missing too much to be cup ready. Also the plan you are proposing is ridiculous you're speaking as if our vets or depth are enough to make it through the playoffs. No team with Gionta, DD, Briere and Gallgher in their top 9 will win the cup unless they have 2 Milan Lucics in the group as well, our team is too small to win consistently in the playoffs

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07-20-2013, 12:21 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Replacing Markov with Diaz doesn't mean handing over all of Markov's minutes. We still need a solid defensive D to withstand most of the minutes. Tinordi might be that man within the next 2 years.
Tinordi is not there yet, but we sure can hope that he'll be able to do get there this year, that'd be a great scenario for MB. If that's the case, trading Markov makes a bit more sense, but the team is gotta be able to pick it up at 5 on 5 because I think there would be a significant decrease of PP success without him.

It obviously depends on what you actually get for Markov, which IMO will be a 1st rnd pick and an average roster player. Or a good roster player and a prospect.

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07-20-2013, 12:24 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
Tinordi is not there yet, but we sure can hope that he'll be able to do get there this year, that'd be a great scenario for MB. If that's the case, trading Markov makes a bit more sense, but the team is gotta be able to pick it up at 5 on 5 because I think there would be a significant decrease of PP success without him.

It obviously depends on what you actually get for Markov, which IMO will be a 1st rnd pick and an average roster player. Or a good roster player and a prospect.
It's a key point. The decision to make will be around trade deadline.

then we'll see how far Tinordi will have been, and if we can afford to risk everything on him + Diaz for the long term.

Or we need to hold on Markov.

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07-20-2013, 12:25 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
It's a key point. The decision to make will be around trade deadline.

then we'll see how far Tinordi will have been, and if we can afford to risk everything on him + Diaz for the long term.

Or we need to hold on Markov.
Yup, it all pretty much comes down to this.

But we never know what might happen, Beaulieu might come in this year @ training camp and absolutely steal the show.

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07-20-2013, 12:30 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
Yup, it all pretty much comes down to this.

But we never know what might happen, Beaulieu might come in this year @ training camp and absolutely steal the show.
Either way, if someone really steps up, I say Markov is the one leaving, with Diaz signed medium/long term.

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07-20-2013, 12:36 PM
  #136
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Our vets are already declining, Markov put up points this year yes but if you watched him defensively he was behind a step. Gionta won't start the year and who knows when he's coming back and in what shape he will be when he comes back. And yes when comparing Tinordi to Gorges try watching them play instea of looking up stats... Tinordi brings a good first pass and a hard shot to the equation. Galchenyuk needs top 6 minutes this year his development will stagnate if he's used as depth any longer he should play wing this year on the second line with Eller and Briere and next year if possible we move Pleky for a good return to let Eller play 1st line shutdown and gally can C the second line.

I'm really sorry if you're old and/or sick and won't see a cup win unless
it's in the next 2 years, but this team is not cup ready now and we are missing too much to be cup ready. Also the plan you are proposing is ridiculous you're speaking as if our vets or depth are enough to make it through the playoffs. No team with Gionta, DD, Briere and Gallgher in their top 9 will win the cup unless they have 2 Milan Lucics in the group as well, our team is too small to win consistently in the playoffs
While you may be correct about Markov, you also have to keep in mind that he played 74 games last year after a combined 20 games over the two prior seasons. Fatigue may have been a factor here, so don't write him off just yet.

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07-20-2013, 12:43 PM
  #137
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While you may be correct about Markov, you also have to keep in mind that he played 74 games last year after a combined 20 games over the two prior seasons. Fatigue may have been a factor here, so don't write him off just yet.
May, or may not. Should the team wager on it being a fluke?

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07-20-2013, 12:54 PM
  #138
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May, or may not. Should the team wager on it being a fluke?
I think the real Markov is who we saw at the beginning of the year. He visibly was missing speed and he took too many chances sometimes, but he was still quite effective in the defensive zone. At the end of the year, with the fatigue of playing 24 minutes a game, which will obviously go down this year unless Therrien is a complete moron, his lack of speed and his avoidance of contact were much more dramatic.

With the uncompressed schedule, the less TOI and his adjustment towards pinching at the right time and being more conscious about his lack of speed, he will be have a pretty solid season all-together. A guy like Hamrlik had to go through he same thing in his career and he aged like whine, until these past 2 years.

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07-20-2013, 12:56 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
Tinordi is not there yet, but we sure can hope that he'll be able to do get there this year, that'd be a great scenario for MB. If that's the case, trading Markov makes a bit more sense, but the team is gotta be able to pick it up at 5 on 5 because I think there would be a significant decrease of PP success without him.

It obviously depends on what you actually get for Markov, which IMO will be a 1st rnd pick and an average roster player. Or a good roster player and a prospect.
TINORDI needs to get a touch more aggresive, and give that edge in frt of the net, as price right now, has to d men to make the crease a place to play and be scared

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07-20-2013, 12:57 PM
  #140
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Yeah, I don't know why Diaz is considered expendable around here. Fast-forward six months and I'm hoping he proves what a smart, efficient and productive player he is, just as he appeared to be before getting hurt.
Great regular season PMD. But basically useless defensively in the playoffs when body strength becomes more important than stick skills in puck battles.

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07-20-2013, 12:59 PM
  #141
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May, or may not. Should the team wager on it being a fluke?
I think so. Markov has shown me enough over his career to give him the benefit of that one.

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07-20-2013, 01:12 PM
  #142
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Great regular season PMD. But basically useless defensively in the playoffs when body strength becomes more important than stick skills in puck battles.
I nderstand what you're saying but he just cane back from an apparently serious concussion, I'd like to see more of him in the playoffs beore marking him down. Plenty of smaller dmen work well in the playoffs, it's not a binary thing...

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07-20-2013, 01:21 PM
  #143
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I think the real Markov is who we saw at the beginning of the year. He visibly was missing speed and he took too many chances sometimes, but he was still quite effective in the defensive zone. At the end of the year, with the fatigue of playing 24 minutes a game, which will obviously go down this year unless Therrien is a complete moron, his lack of speed and his avoidance of contact were much more dramatic.

With the uncompressed schedule, the less TOI and his adjustment towards pinching at the right time and being more conscious about his lack of speed, he will be have a pretty solid season all-together. A guy like Hamrlik had to go through he same thing in his career and he aged like whine, until these past 2 years.
I'm pretty sure that with the Olympic break, next season will be compressed also

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07-20-2013, 02:05 PM
  #144
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DD's contract isn't bad at all an should easiy be movable. This place turns into an echo chamber when talking about him. It was either sign him or let him
walk as a ufa. I understand that he signed him early to take away dd's tempation to go the ufa route, but He should have waited.

It's 3.5 for 4, reasonable term and reasonable money. And there's no ntc or nmc. Not worth the hair pulling I read here
WRONG FIT , NOT A $$$$$ ISSUE

we have 3 better centers , he has no fken role on this team , too small and not enough jam on the top 6 , no game for the bottom 6 ... plain and simple

if we were 4 years ago and had Pleks , a finsihed Koivu , Robert retirement Lang and Max I stink Lapierre down the middle , fine sign him til u find better

WE HAVE BETTER ...LET HIM WALK

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07-20-2013, 02:57 PM
  #145
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I really wonder why people keep writing off Diaz for the long-term. The guy proved to be extremely effective up until his commotion, and now he's just trade bait?!


Man, people forget quickly. I also remember how early on in the season Budaj couldn't win a game to save his life, to believe some comments on this board, and later on they wanted him in the net instead of Price.
Not writing off Diaz. Just thinking that if you have PK long term, if Markov can give a few more decent years and Nathan B can be worked into the line-up over the next 2 years, maybe you use Diaz to try to help get a piece we don't have or try to upgrade. If there are concerns about Markov then no, then you look at keeping Diaz long term, but that means Markov likely goes, given we need to balance the D with bigger, physical guys.

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07-20-2013, 03:33 PM
  #146
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Except that Diaz is not exactly the person to get rid of if you really want to increase our lineup's defensive effectiveness. Like you said, he's effective defensively, has high IQ there and get the puck out rather quickly.

Do you want to see if Bergevin has balls? I'll tell you straight up:

Trading away Markov and signing Diaz is the ballsy move. That's the gamble.

Otherwise you just keep a (still effective, but) declining defenseman for.. how long? How long do you think Markov can still be part of our top 4?

He'll always be effective on the power play, obviously.
signing Diaz is a kick in the balls

did you watch the playoffs ? you dont win and go to war with this guy

we need size and muscle not another finesse cant play in the playoffs d man

he wouldnt play with Boston , Chicago and LA so why extend him

Nathan is his and Markov`s replacment

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07-20-2013, 03:35 PM
  #147
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Not writing off Diaz. Just thinking that if you have PK long term, if Markov can give a few more decent years and Nathan B can be worked into the line-up over the next 2 years, maybe you use Diaz to try to help get a piece we don't have or try to upgrade. If there are concerns about Markov then no, then you look at keeping Diaz long term, but that means Markov likely goes, given we need to balance the D with bigger, physical guys.
if Nathan and Pk play on this team , you cant have an other puck mover who plays no d in Diaz , terrible fit my friend

he cant play on the bottom pairing and isnt good ebough for the top 4 on a top team
move on

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07-20-2013, 03:38 PM
  #148
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if Nathan and Pk play on this team , you cant have an other puck mover who plays no d in Diaz , terrible fit my friend

he cant play on the bottom pairing and isnt good ebough for the top 4 on a top team
move on
Plays no D? What? Diaz was our third most effective D until his concussion.

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07-20-2013, 06:23 PM
  #149
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signing Diaz is a kick in the balls

did you watch the playoffs ? you dont win and go to war with this guy

we need size and muscle not another finesse cant play in the playoffs d man

he wouldnt play with Boston , Chicago and LA so why extend him

Nathan is his and Markov`s replacment
Man, you really say stupid things when you get talking sometimes.

You cry over Diaz's playoff performance like it's his standard level of play. You claim he wouldn't stand a chance against Boston when he already proven on multiple occasions he can handle himself very we'll.

You are the epitome of the short-memory obssessed HFBoards Habs Board poster I made fun of earlier. Can't get past the last 10 games you watched.

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07-20-2013, 06:34 PM
  #150
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Man, you really say stupid things when you get talking sometimes.

You cry over Diaz's playoff performance like it's his standard level of play. You claim he wouldn't stand a chance against Boston when he already proven on multiple occasions he can handle himself very we'll.

You are the epitome of the short-memory obssessed HFBoards Habs Board poster I made fun of earlier. Can't get past the last 10 games you watched.
Love this line, so true, from Craig Rivet on being asked about playing in Montreal after being dealt to the Sharks. In Montreal, its " so what have you done for me now"

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