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Does Bergevin have to sign PK Subban before the season start ?

View Poll Results: should bergy sign PK before the season start ?
yes 76 32.20%
no 67 28.39%
it doesn't matter 93 39.41%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-19-2013, 02:00 PM
  #451
uiCk
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Unless u can somehow prove PK's motivation is materialistic, as in his motivation stems from wanting money, or from not getting money and trying to prove he wanted money, or that once he gets the guarantee for having alot of money long term (long contract), you and others are simply put profiling pk as one based on others, pro hockey players or not.

If you watch PK talk and look at his background, his parents and consequently his education, you KNOW where his source of motivation comes from, and making out PK to be materialistic oriented is huge insult to PK and his family. Dont understand how people are having a hard time understanding this concept.

Watching that OTR piece should give people some clues of what im saying

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07-19-2013, 02:25 PM
  #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Wow are you ever a boring conversationalist.

Let me repeat again, because I sure hope you are only acting stupid...

No one knows the exact value (4.5, 5, 5.5, etc.) before he won the Norris. Now that he won the Norris, he will have to be signed for more than he would of in January 2013.

If you can't understand this simple logic, please refrain from posting.

Thank you.
You're kidding right ? you're clearly having fun right now or something...


SIMPLE logic, I doubt you'll get it but still..

as you said yourself, YOU DONT KNOW how much he would have made had he signed last season for a long term...

and you're stating as a FACT that now P.K. will make more than the amount YOU DONT KNOW...


your 10 years logic, not needed.

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07-19-2013, 02:28 PM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Unless u can somehow prove PK's motivation is materialistic, as in his motivation stems from wanting money, or from not getting money and trying to prove he wanted money, or that once he gets the guarantee for having alot of money long term (long contract), you and others are simply put profiling pk as one based on others, pro hockey players or not.

If you watch PK talk and look at his background, his parents and consequently his education, you KNOW where his source of motivation comes from, and making out PK to be materialistic oriented is huge insult to PK and his family. Dont understand how people are having a hard time understanding this concept.

Watching that OTR piece should give people some clues of what im saying
didnt see anyone implying that. From what I've read it's more along the lines of "proving others wrong".


huh, you don't KNOW people cause you saw them on T.V. a few times. Please...

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07-19-2013, 02:29 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post

and you're stating as a FACT that now P.K. will make more than the amount YOU DONT KNOW...
Are you arguing against the proposition that PK will make more in his next contract than he would have last year, if he was signed on a long term contract?

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07-19-2013, 03:42 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Georges singed a one-year contract prior to signing his long term deal, and was becoming a UFA. I know that you (conveniently) refuse to see the difference between a second contract and a player entitled to become UFA, but it doesn't make this key factor in negotiations disappear. You keep the rights to a RFA unless he signs an offer-sheet, but even then you get compensation and you can match that offer (see Weber). You just lose a UFA. Another fact.

You keep reverting back to the $2.875M Subban is getting, qualifying it as low-ball. Looking at what Subban had done at that time, it's a bit higher than what Del Zotto received in New York. Kris Letang signed a bridging contract ($3.5M) and he was a key contributor to two Stanley Cup finals including a win over Detroit.
Everyone knows that RFAs have fewer rights. Everyone knows that teams leverage this to get better deals out of their players. You mentioned "other factors" what are they?

What you have not explained is how PK is worth less than Josh Gorges. As for Legtang and Del Zotto, neither had demonstrated the abilities of PK Subban up to that point. And 2.8 is actually lower than what Letang made.

And yes, I keep coming back to this fact because it's indefensible for the team to have forced the guy to have taken a sub 3 million dollar deal while providing a 3.5, 4 year deal to the likes of DD.

Nobody is denying that an RFA would make less... that's why PK was looking to make 25 over 5 instead of demanding much more, which he easily could've done if he was UFA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
  • Bergevin wants to instate a way of doing business with the bridging contract
  • He knows that others will follow suit, including Galchenyuk, and he'll now be able to say "Even PK had to take a bridging contract"
  • The cap will go down to a little over $60M next year, down from $70M+
  • By the time Subban's contract is up, Gionta and Markov's contracts will be done
  • Subban had issues in the dressing room, even fighting with teammates in practice
  • Hockey is a business and feelings come second. Players and management know that.
  • Now that he's proving himself and has improved, including winning the Norris, PK will be getting his big contract, something Bergevin has said not having a problem with.
I ripped this to shreds in my last post... I don't need to do it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post

Says who? Last year is hindsight. Bergevin was trying to add to the team at the trade deadline but he said that the asking price was too high and he wasn't willing to jeopardize the future for a short term solution. Fans should embrace that as it's so refreshing compared to the 1st/2nd round picks traded for the likes of Moore, Lang, Wizniewsky and company of the past... And who's to say that he won't need it or use it this year?
We finished 15th the year before... No, we did not need the freaking cap space. We will (hopefully) need it in the the near future. Of course if MB keeps making dumb signings like Briere then maybe it will be irrelevant but that's a whole other story...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Saying that Bergevin is wishing he did it now is speculative and/or wishful thinking at best. He made a decision at the time that made sense to him and many others, even if some disagree(d) with him. He has even said at the time that he'll have no problem paying Subban his true value for his next contract so yes, Meehan and Subban will have their pay day but it will be fully deserved, even more so now than two years prior. Nothing wrong with paying a Norris caliber Subban his true value as opposed to paying in hope that he keeps on progressing.
He had the opportunity to sign the guy at a very reasonable amount. That player has now gone out and won the Norris. And you sit there and say that it's speculative and wishful to believe that he doesn't regret signing him for longer and cheaper when he had the chance? Okay...

???????

I guess it's speculative to think that Houle regrets the Roy trade too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Where you're wrong (and perhaps making things up) is when you assume that I'm wrong. I was one of the ones defending Subban saying that he had Norris potential (go read the countless Subban vs McDonaugh threads on the main board). The fact and the matter is that he wasn't a Norris caliber player when he signed his bridging contract... yet. He had the talent to get there, but he had a lot of things to work out, including his attitude and team relationships. You saying that my argument is hogwash is... well... just as hogwash. It's speculative in both case. The difference is that I've been admitting it all along.
Dude... nobody expected him to win the Norris. Doesn't matter. He'd already proven that he was a number one blueliner. He put up numbers that were very good even on a terrible team. That's not speculative. Even if everyone is surprised that he won the Norris, nobody should be surprised that he had a good year. Based on the facts of the moment it made sense to sign him based on what he already did.

So he goes out and wins the Norris. And you sit there and argue it wouldn't have happened without being lowballed.

Hogwash.

Call it your opinion all you want. The fact is that the guy won the Norris and did exactly what we said he would... raise his market value. Now we have to pay the guy more than we would've.

You can sit there and argue that he wouldn't have done it all you want. You have zero facts to back you up. It is excuse making for MB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Come on. We weren't born yesterday. The fact that you're bringing it up in this topic (Subban's bridging contract, Bergevin's decision), isn't about Gainey, Gauthier or Houle, let's face it. But it's irrelevant.
Don't make bogus arguments if you don't want to get called on it. Don't sit there and say "he's a GM, you aren't... so he's right".

It's BS.

As for MB... never said he was an idiot. I said I'm hopeful he'll be a good GM but don't understand some of the moves he's made. I explicitly said this. Go back and read the posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Funny, that's how I feel about yours to. Who's right? Mmmm... I'd say it's a matter of opinion and not facts.
I'm right.

The facts back me up. What happened was exactly what I (and countless others) said would happen. The guy was going to have a great year and it would cost us more. Now we just have to sit back and see how much.

You don't have facts backing you up. He won the Norris. Now you have to come out and try to argue why he did it. I don't. The burden is on you to prove that the lowballing was what made the difference here and it's something you can't prove. I have the fact that he won the Norris behind me. You have unsupported conjecture.

You can say "well I think it happened because he got lowballed" all you want. That's your opinion? Okay. But you have nothing to back it up with. And people here have every right to shred you for it because your opinion is not well supported.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Speculative. Fact is that a trend is being instated with the organization: ELC, followed by a bridging contract, then your big bucks. Pacioretty, Price, then Subban did it. Agents (including Meehan) will know it.


So $5M+ when the cap goes down is better than $2.875M? Is that what you're saying? Remember... the cap is said to going back up by the time Subban's contract expires.


You really don't want to admit it, do you? $11M off the books for both of them (if not re-signed) by the time PK's new contract kicks in. Cap going up $6M. PK's $3M. That's close to $20M to pay PK and others. Still irrelevant?


Denying even video evidence and coaches' comments. Head in the sand syndrome.

Listen, I'll leave you the last word. Not because I don't think I have a point, but because we're going in circle and mostly, I won't convince you (not that I was trying, I respect your opinion, even if you take it as factual), and you sure won't make me change mine either. So keep debating, it's won't go anywhere.

In my opinion, the bridge deal was the thing to do, even in hindsight. It's worth paying PK more with more flexibility on the cap and now that he's matured to who he is becoming. I truly believe that Bergevin and Therrien's actions have had a huge impact on who he has become. He has changed and while he still has some work to do (see the Pacioretty incident in the playoffs), I'm fully confident that he'll get there, possibly as soon as this year. Then he can sign for top dollars and he will have become a sure bet.
Thanks for the last word. I'm going to make full use of it here and summarize things for you.

You are putting your hands over your ears and saying "speculative"... it isn't. The facts are there. We said he'd have a great year and raise his value. We said he'd be more expensive in the long run. That's exactly what's happened. We were right. Now we have to wait and see how much more expensive he'll be than the 5 year 25 that he was looking for. I suppose we can speculate on whether or not it will be 2 or 3 million more a year (whatever... we'll have to wait and see how bad it will be) but it's going to be more expensive. And that's exactly what we said would happen.

YOU are the one who has to rely on speculative arguments here. Burying your head in the sand on this doesn't change this. Say it's "opinion" all you wish, bottom line is that what we predicted would happen has happened. He will now be more expensive in the future as we said he'd be. And people are well within their rights to rip MB for this.

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07-19-2013, 03:49 PM
  #456
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Just because MB will likely re-sign P.K to a long term deal doesn't mean that he didn't make mistake. If one day we fail to sign one of our core players because MB couldn't save a couple of millions by giving P.K. a long term year last year...


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07-19-2013, 04:39 PM
  #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Are you arguing against the proposition that PK will make more in his next contract than he would have last year, if he was signed on a long term contract?
maybe you'll be better at explaining this to the guy, here it is:

how much P.K. would have made, he doesnt know (said it himself)

how much he will make, he doesnt know (same)

yet, his opinion on the matter is a fact...

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07-19-2013, 04:59 PM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
You're kidding right ? you're clearly having fun right now or something...


SIMPLE logic, I doubt you'll get it but still..

as you said yourself, YOU DONT KNOW how much he would have made had he signed last season for a long term...

and you're stating as a FACT that now P.K. will make more than the amount YOU DONT KNOW...


your 10 years logic, not needed.
Of course I know. Why would MB of signed PK Subban to a contract that a Norris trophy winner would be awarded in January 2013?

In January 2013 PK Subban was worth value X.

Today, PK Subban has won the Norris trophy. His value is Y.

It's pretty easy to use the most basic logic and realize that Y > X.

So what if we don't know "the exact" value, we have enough information to deduce that Subban is worth more today than he did prior to winning the Norris.

I'm ready for your next attempt to disprove the simplest inequality.

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07-19-2013, 05:00 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
maybe you'll be better at explaining this to the guy, here it is:

how much P.K. would have made, he doesnt know (said it himself)

how much he will make, he doesnt know (same)

yet, his opinion on the matter is a fact...
However, "Young D-men who have proven they can win a Norris
trophy routinely have more bargaining power than young D-men who haven't",
is a true statement. And that is pretty close to a fact. Certainly close
enough for casual conversations.


Last edited by Habaddict: 07-19-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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07-19-2013, 05:06 PM
  #460
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Anyhow, getting him signed this summer would be good for my peace of mind.
Because just having arbitration rights change the picture a lot.

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07-19-2013, 05:34 PM
  #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Of course I know. Why would MB of signed PK Subban to a contract that a Norris trophy winner would be awarded in January 2013?

In January 2013 PK Subban was worth value X.

Today, PK Subban has won the Norris trophy. His value is Y.

It's pretty easy to use the most basic logic and realize that Y > X.

So what if we don't know "the exact" value, we have enough information to deduce that Subban is worth more today than he did prior to winning the Norris.

I'm ready for your next attempt to disprove the simplest inequality.

As for the value of PK's next contract on the other hand... we have another year to wait and see how much we're going to get shafted by here. Hopefully he takes a hometown discount and plays for 7 million. Personally though I wouldn't blame him at all if he demands 8 after having been lowballed. It will probably be 6 for 48 or something like that. I can pretty much guarantee you though that is sure as hell won't be 5 for 25.


Last edited by overlords: 07-19-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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07-19-2013, 08:12 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by YUHeffToBMad View Post
Just because MB will likely re-sign P.K to a long term deal doesn't mean that he didn't make mistake. If one day we fail to sign one of our core players because MB couldn't save a couple of millions by giving P.K. a long term year last year...
Dear God...are you serious?

First of all, how the hell could you trace that back solely to the contract PK receives? What? Between now and then the Habs are only going to sign one player?

How do you know it won't be because of the contract he gave to Briere? Or anyone else he signs between now and then?

This is ridiculous...again, other teams can afford to sign all their stars.

Yet the Habs currently have 1 player making more then 6M and you're trying to tell me that adding one more with Subban somehow will prevent the Habs from re-signing one of their core members of their team?

You can't be serious

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Old
07-19-2013, 11:53 PM
  #463
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It is not that hatd to grasp.

Last year, Subban could have been locked up for ~5.5, now, it will take ~7.5. It is a loss of at least 2 million dolars to the team's cap freedom, and it might even be 3 million.

We are now 3.4 million under the cap for 2013-2014, so the savings are useless.

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Old
07-20-2013, 08:47 AM
  #464
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It is not that hatd to grasp.

Last year, Subban could have been locked up for ~5.5, now, it will take ~7.5. It is a loss of at least 2 million dolars to the team's cap freedom, and it might even be 3 million.

We are now 3.4 million under the cap for 2013-2014, so the savings are useless.
I don't even think they were asking for that much. It was probably 5 for 25 or 26.

And don't be surprised if/when he demands 8. I think that loss when all is said and done will be more in the 3 million range.

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07-20-2013, 10:17 AM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't even think they were asking for that much. It was probably 5 for 25 or 26.

And don't be surprised if/when he demands 8. I think that loss when all is said and done will be more in the 3 million range.
I think the fact other contracts are coming to an end + the cap going up will more then make up for that 3M 'loss'

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07-20-2013, 10:30 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think the fact other contracts are coming to an end + the cap going up will more then make up for that 3M 'loss'
I don't understand making up for that 'loss'. We can always make up for any 'cost' or any 'loss' by dumping contracts, that doesn't change the merits or non-merits of not signing Subban to a longer-term contract.

That's like saying denting your car isn't a cost or a loss because you can always sell your bicycle.

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07-20-2013, 11:27 AM
  #467
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Getting too childish in here. Infractions and threadbans soon for those who can't figure out when to grow up.

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07-20-2013, 12:20 PM
  #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think the fact other contracts are coming to an end + the cap going up will more then make up for that 3M 'loss'
The way you see it is fine, but having even more savings gives you more wiggle room.

I know your stance on available cap space, so for you having more if it isn't spent is useless but having more might be the difference between signing a guy for 6 million on the UFA market and not having enough. I know you will respond by saying "if the habs want that player at 6, they will make the moves to get him". At this point neither of our logics can be tested, Chicago seemed to do fine by getting rid of players and keeping a core but who knows how the habs will deal with this. Wait and see I guess.

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07-20-2013, 12:44 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Dear God...are you serious?

First of all, how the hell could you trace that back solely to the contract PK receives? What? Between now and then the Habs are only going to sign one player?

How do you know it won't be because of the contract he gave to Briere? Or anyone else he signs between now and then?

This is ridiculous...again, other teams can afford to sign all their stars.

Yet the Habs currently have 1 player making more then 6M and you're trying to tell me that adding one more with Subban somehow will prevent the Habs from re-signing one of their core members of their team?

You can't be serious
Other teams can't afford to sign all their stars when all their stars want market value and don't take a discount. We on the other hand could've had a discount on P.K., but we all know what happened. Instead, we got a huge discount for 2 meaningless years where our core is not even fully identified and set for our cup run. Same thing for Briere's deal, it wont affect us because we have no one that will command big bucks in the next 2 years.

That's why P.K's bridge deal will be traced back in time if we ever miss the money to re-sign one of our best players in the years that count. Good luck getting a discount from Subban now if you think he'll be getting Karlsson's deal.

I'll still be happy as hell the day he signs his big fat contract with us, but MB could potentially regret playing hard ball with Subban one day.

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07-20-2013, 01:17 PM
  #470
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It's probably up to Subban and his agent. It'll be expensive. The silver lining is that if Subban signs an offer sheet as an RFA and Bergevin chooses not to match the Habs could get a ton of draft picks as compensation. Why might it come to that? The next cap, of course.

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07-20-2013, 03:09 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
The way you see it is fine, but having even more savings gives you more wiggle room.

I know your stance on available cap space, so for you having more if it isn't spent is useless but having more might be the difference between signing a guy for 6 million on the UFA market and not having enough. I know you will respond by saying "if the habs want that player at 6, they will make the moves to get him". At this point neither of our logics can be tested, Chicago seemed to do fine by getting rid of players and keeping a core but who knows how the habs will deal with this. Wait and see I guess.
Gives you more wiggle room to spend more money that's all

I'm nore sure I understand the logic here...

You're saying they might not have the room to sign a UFA for 6M

Yet at the same time you're criticizing them for not having cap space?

What if the player they sign using that cap space ends up being a total flop

Are you gonna criticize them for using precious cap space then???

This just doesn't make sense to me...we knock GM's for wasting cap space, then knock them for using it

It's like a vicious cycle


Last edited by 417: 07-20-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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07-20-2013, 03:49 PM
  #472
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This just doesn't make sense to me...we knock GM's for wasting cap space, then knock them for using it

It's like a vicious cycle
People want the GM to use the space intelligently. There's a difference.

LG made it very simple.

We knew PK was worth more than his actual contract, we knew he would continue to improve and raise his value. He ends up winning the Norris, which I think we can all agree raised his value. With increased value comes increased dollars. Those are the facts.


Last edited by Kriss E: 07-20-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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07-20-2013, 03:55 PM
  #473
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People want the GM to use the space intelligently. There's a difference.
I'd say people just want an excuse to complain, no worries, P.K. will get his big contract and people will start complaining about his contract as soon as he'll have a bad stretch.

You're naive, people and intelligence in the same sentence ?

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07-20-2013, 07:41 PM
  #474
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who cares how or when pk is signed.i m just damn thankful we got him.still cant believe half the people on hf boards wanted him gone 7 months ago.real knowledgable fans we got round here.

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07-20-2013, 08:33 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't even think they were asking for that much. It was probably 5 for 25 or 26.

And don't be surprised if/when he demands 8. I think that loss when all is said and done will be more in the 3 million range.
The Bergevin deficit is growing regularly.

4 million to Briere.
3.5 million to Desharnais.
An extra 2 million to Subban (you say 3 million).

The Bergevin Deficit is closing in on 10 million dollars.

When Bergevin was hired, he admitted that he's "not a numbers guy", and I shuddered, and my worries are being confirmed with time.

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