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Who is the ideal linemate for Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

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Old
07-20-2013, 09:02 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Yeah, but I assume you see the pattern. The guys you listed got criticism from the team first, then the media followed. Franzen gets criticized too, when Babcock acknowledges it. I don't need to explain how Detroit media works to you, but everyone knows their 'opinions' are based on how the coach and GM perceives them.
My point stands.
Abdelkader doesn't take a lot of ****.

Fans on message boards rip him because they get sick of seeing Abdelkader turn the puck over or watch the play die on his stick.

But ultimately, that's Babcock's fault.

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07-20-2013, 09:07 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
My point stands.
Abdelkader doesn't take a lot of ****.

Fans on message boards rip him because they get sick of seeing Abdelkader turn the puck over or watch the play die on his stick.

But ultimately, that's Babcock's fault.
Who cares what the media thinks then? On a message board the only time a comment like 'Abdelkader doesn't take any heat' is true is when you're talking about how the fans perceive him.

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07-20-2013, 09:13 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
That's just plain wrong.
Abdelkader looked like absolute **** on the line.
It wasn't until Cleary got replaced by Franzen that the line became somewhat effective again, because Franzen at least gives opposing teams someone to worry about.

Bertuzzi is so much better than Abdelkader it's not even funny. I honestly can't believe you hold this opinion.
Which happened later in the season.

edit: and Bert used to be a better player. He also used to be able to play more than seven games in a season.

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07-20-2013, 09:33 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Which happened later in the season.

edit: and Bert used to be a better player. He also used to be able to play more than seven games in a season.
But the line still sucked because Abdelkader kills plays.

Including the playoffs, where you say he "played well" he finished with 12 goals and 4 assists in 60 games.

Can you tell me one other player who played first line minutes for more than half the season (including the playoffs) and finished with 4 assists?

Can you tell me a second line player who played half the season and finished with 4 assists?

Our leading goal scorers last year were Datsyuk and Franzen -- 15 and 14 goals.

How does a linemate get three assists on 29 goals?

Abdelkader was a terrible third line center. He's not even a good fourth line center.

He's a 4th line winger. That's his skill level.

It's really ****ing tiresome to watch Pavel Datsyuk -- a guy who became known as one of the great playmakers in the game -- playing with 4th-rate talent..


Last edited by Guerzy: 07-20-2013 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Stay on-topic.
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07-20-2013, 10:22 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Z-Pavs-Mule
Abby-Weiss-Nyquist
Where's Alfredsson?

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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I'm not sure I believe that.

The Filppula-Zetteberg-Hudler line 2 years ago was awesome.

The Filppula-Zetterberg-Cleary/whoever line last year sucked.
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
So maybe it was Hudler and Z who did the work?
Don't forget that in 2010-11 Babcock brought Hudler-Modano-Cleary out of the gate and that line scored only a handful of goals in 25 or something games. Then later that same season, Hudler-Datsyuk-Cleary for like a dozen games and everyone was scoring on pace for ~100 pts.

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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
We've had maybe three guys in ten years who appeared to have any idea what Datsyuk was doing out there. Two are retired, and the third is expected to be on his line next year.
Hudler isn't retired, he's just playing in Calgary. His chances of winning the Cup are approximately equal though.

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07-20-2013, 10:30 PM
  #81
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All you have to do is remove that fluke hat trick game against Anaheim and you see just how terrible Gator really is at producing on offense. He ends up having ten points with seven goals and three assists. That 23 game period where he scored one point starts to look like how Gator typically produces on offense.

The assists just further proves how unreliable and useless he is on offense. You can't have that kind of dead weight on a line. It just makes it so easy for an opposing coach to game plan against that line, even with Z/D making up the rest of the line.

Gator does not have the mental capacity to play with Z and D. He doesn't have the mental capacity to center a 4th line. It just isn't in his DNA. If Holland and Babcock honestly think that they have another Franzen situation developing with Gator...It's gonna be a brutal season.

In what world is it acceptable to have such an offensively challenged winger playing on the first line? Let's just humor everyone and say Gator really is that good at digging/retrieving pucks. When do you demote that player because his intangibles don't outweigh his massive deficiencies on offense? I will tell you when. When that player only has three assists playing 48 games.

Babcock is dead set on having a 13 point winger who got the majority of his 13 points in two games, to be the opening night first line winger with Z/D.

Initial reaction.



Realizing that Babcock actually thinks this is a good idea.


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07-20-2013, 10:40 PM
  #82
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I do like Abby, he is taking all the heat from opposing team , get away attention from Pavel . If D&Z play together , I would prefer Bert and Abby split time with D&Z. Bert should not play more than 10 min a game . Same time Abby should kill penalties.

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07-20-2013, 10:46 PM
  #83
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I realize this is about your teams players, but God damn, would I ever wanna see Patrik Elias on a line with them two..

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07-20-2013, 10:54 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
But the line still sucked because Abdelkader kills plays.

Including the playoffs, where you say he "played well" he finished with 12 goals and 4 assists in 60 games.

Can you tell me one other player who played first line minutes for more than half the season (including the playoffs) and finished with 4 assists?

Can you tell me a second line player who played half the season and finished with 4 assists?

Our leading goal scorers last year were Datsyuk and Franzen -- 15 and 14 goals.

How does a linemate get three assists on 29 goals?

Abdelkader was a terrible third line center. He's not even a good fourth line center.

He's a 4th line winger. That's his skill level.

It's really ****ing tiresome to watch Pavel Datsyuk -- a guy who became known as one of the great playmakers in the game -- playing with 4th-rate talent..
Over the last month of the season Abdelkader had four goals and
just one assist. Over that frame Franzen had 13 points, and Datsyuk had 14. I'm not sure when Z and D were paired up, but Z had 16 points in that month. But whether it was Zetterberg and Datsyuk or Datsyuk and Franzen, Abdelkader was the third player in that mix, and the lines worked.

You bemoan Abdelkader's lack of skill and his lack of assists, but you ignore the line functioning well, producing points, and the team winning.

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07-20-2013, 10:54 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
But the line still sucked because Abdelkader kills plays.

Including the playoffs, where you say he "played well" he finished with 12 goals and 4 assists in 60 games.

Can you tell me one other player who played first line minutes for more than half the season (including the playoffs) and finished with 4 assists?

Can you tell me a second line player who played half the season and finished with 4 assists?

Our leading goal scorers last year were Datsyuk and Franzen -- 15 and 14 goals.

How does a linemate get three assists on 29 goals?

Abdelkader was a terrible third line center. He's not even a good fourth line center.

He's a 4th line winger. That's his skill level.

It's really ****ing tiresome to watch Pavel Datsyuk -- a guy who became known as one of the great playmakers in the game -- playing with 4th-rate talent..
The three assists are a staggering number. But he factored in on goals where he gets no credit. You also have to think by luck he deserves a couple more, this is like a strange shooting percentage aberration. But also and you can still pick on it, Fransen and Datsyuk did a significant amount of that damage on the PP.

Virtually half, so 14 of their goals came on the PP Abdelkader was rarely with them there.

So you have 15 even strength goals for those guys.

Abdelkader's state-line is still ugly, but not as extreme as your post was trying to make it look

Franzen also did a lot of that damage in the final season run in, where he anchored the second line. Abdelkader's play and Franzen's play was actually quite good down the stretch and it helped to provide balance. Hopefully Franzen - Weiss - Alfie will make a solid second line and we spread the scoring like that again, it makes us a much better team.

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07-20-2013, 10:59 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by lilidk View Post
I do like Abby, he is taking all the heat from opposing team , get away attention from Pavel . If D&Z play together , I would prefer Bert and Abby split time with D&Z. Bert should not play more than 10 min a game . Same time Abby should kill penalties.
This is just not true.
Datsyuk's numbers with Abby show this is absolutely not the case.

I'd take a 38-year-old, wonky-back Bertuzzi with all his drop passes to nobody over Abdelkader -- on a scoring line -- any day of the week.

If you went Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi for 14- minutes a night, Bert would undoubtedly produce more than Abdelkader.

While Bertuzzi is far from ideal, he's been a pretty consistent even strength producer:

11-12 14 goals 34 points in 983 minutes
10-11 14 goals 38 in 1163 minutes
09-10 14 goals 33 points in 1161 minutes

My guess is he'd score 18 to 25 goals at ES and 45 to 50 points.

Bert would provide size and some enforcement. He wouldn't be as physical as Abdelkader. But he'd be better at winning possession of the puck, protecting the puck, and passing the puck.

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07-20-2013, 11:00 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Don't forget that in 2010-11 Babcock brought Hudler-Modano-Cleary out of the gate and that line scored only a handful of goals in 25 or something games. Then later that same season, Hudler-Datsyuk-Cleary for like a dozen games and everyone was scoring on pace for ~100 pts.

Hudler isn't retired, he's just playing in Calgary. His chances of winning the Cup are approximately equal though.
Didn't that line get changed a bit just before Modano got his wrist cut? I remember Modano seeming to find a niche not long before that injury, and then his season was just destroyed and he wasn't the same when he came back.

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07-20-2013, 11:01 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Didn't that line get changed a bit just before Modano got his wrist cut? I remember Modano seeming to find a niche not long before that injury, and then his season was just destroyed and he wasn't the same when he came back.
Kind of what I remember, thinking he was just getting comfortable and something nice might be happening. Not great, but thought he was finding a role that would really help the team.

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07-20-2013, 11:05 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
The three assists are a staggering number. But he factored in on goals where he gets no credit. You also have to think by luck he deserves a couple more, this is like a strange shooting percentage aberration. But also and you can still pick on it, Fransen and Datsyuk did a significant amount of that damage on the PP.
I don't think Abdelkader factored on many goals where he got no credit. If you want to talk about luck, Abdelkader's 10 goals are a product of luck + empty net goals.



Quote:
Virtually half, so 14 of their goals came on the PP Abdelkader was rarely with them there.

So you have 15 even strength goals for those guys.
That's cool. But it doesn't hurt my argument.



Quote:
Abdelkader's state-line is still ugly, but not as extreme as your post was trying to make it look
LOL
It's doesn't get worse than 4 assists in 60 games.
Again
POINT ME AT THE OTHER TOP 6 NHL FORWARDS WITH ONE ASSIST EVERY 15 GAMES.
Do that, and then you can start accuse me of trying to make things look worse than they are.


Abdelkader is the worst player in the NHL in a top 6 role. And it hurts our team because it diminishes the effectiveness of our top player.

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07-20-2013, 11:40 PM
  #90
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CB is right. Abdelkader is by far the worst top six forward in the NHL and it's not even close.

Using the baseball stat, "Wins Above Replacement", Gator's WAR would probably be -50.

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07-20-2013, 11:53 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Don't forget that in 2010-11 Babcock brought Hudler-Modano-Cleary out of the gate and that line scored only a handful of goals in 25 or something games. Then later that same season, Hudler-Datsyuk-Cleary for like a dozen games and everyone was scoring on pace for ~100 pts.
[mod] That sample size was tiny, and the line was disbanded when it went pointless for numerous games in a row. More, it's ridiculous that you attempt to blame Hudler's lack of production for the first half of the season on his linemates. He was playing horrendous hockey, plain and simple.

Quote:
Hudler isn't retired, he's just playing in Calgary. His chances of winning the Cup are approximately equal though.
His chances of winning the Cup are garbage. Calgary is a bottom-feeding team that most certainly has not gotten better in the short term. Feaster is a hack and, beyond the 1sts he got, was absolutely hosed at the trade deadline. He got further destroyed on the Tanguay trade. His team is now short two of its best scorers in Iginla and Tanguay and its top defenseman in Bouwmeester, and those 1st-rounders are not likely to make an impact anytime soon.

In short, Calgary got a whole lot worse. Feaster is very possibly the worst GM in the league.


Last edited by Winger98: 07-20-2013 at 11:55 PM. Reason: stay on-topic
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07-21-2013, 01:22 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Over the last month of the season Abdelkader had four goals and
just one assist. Over that frame Franzen had 13 points, and Datsyuk had 14. I'm not sure when Z and D were paired up, but Z had 16 points in that month. But whether it was Zetterberg and Datsyuk or Datsyuk and Franzen, Abdelkader was the third player in that mix, and the lines worked.

You bemoan Abdelkader's lack of skill and his lack of assists, but you ignore the line functioning well, producing points, and the team winning.

Crediting Abdelkader for the production of Franzen, Zetterberg and Datsyuk?

Goodness.

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07-21-2013, 02:53 AM
  #93
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To get into Babcock's head you have to look at the full picture.

Do you want Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader as the 1st line and Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar(for example) as the 3rd line -- or do you want Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Tatar and Nyquist-Andersson-Abdelkader as two lines. Assuming the second line is somewhat set already.

Yeah, this is kinda beside the point that Abdelkader is not a top six player, but the first example has two lines that can work, the latter only has one. Without taking the other three lines into consideration at the same time it's rather moot. I think Babs knows just as good as us that Abdelkader isn't a first liner, but he's not the first 3rd liner ever to play along two skill players either. If it makes the 2nd and 3rd lines work it's not the end of the world, since we know Zetterberg and Datsyuk work no matter what.

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07-21-2013, 08:10 AM
  #94
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To get into Babcock's head you have to look at the full picture.

Do you want Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader as the 1st line and Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar(for example) as the 3rd line -- or do you want Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Tatar and Nyquist-Andersson-Abdelkader as two lines. Assuming the second line is somewhat set already.

Yeah, this is kinda beside the point that Abdelkader is not a top six player, but the first example has two lines that can work, the latter only has one. Without taking the other three lines into consideration at the same time it's rather moot. I think Babs knows just as good as us that Abdelkader isn't a first liner, but he's not the first 3rd liner ever to play along two skill players either. If it makes the 2nd and 3rd lines work it's not the end of the world, since we know Zetterberg and Datsyuk work no matter what.
+1 to what you say joe. Also their is this strange thing called a salary cap now. We can't afford another true top 6 forward either without opening further weaknesses into our offense and defensive lines.

In a perfect world come the start of the season we will have a full roster + 1.5-2.5 million in cap space for a potential trade deadline spot fill in to "load up" for a cup run. Thus grabbing a true top 6. But the way it appears with how the cap has gone until it increases to 75+ million I firmly believe most contending teams unless they have a bunch of rfa drafted players will not have a "true top 6" nor will they have a full 3 d lines where everyone fits correctly.

Most contenders the past 3-5 years outside of the cawks first cup where generally 5/6 on d and 5/6 on top 6 forwards till the trade deadline. Also the cawks when they won their first cup where absolutely unbelievable how they were able to fit in every they did that year.

I would much rather miss out on one true top 6 forward to roll 3 puck possesion lines any day of the week and twice on sundays. Because unless a playoff opponent has a stacked d line (and more than likely severe offensive problems due to this) we will always be able to have at least one line matchup that will cause our opponent fits.

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07-21-2013, 08:37 AM
  #95
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+1 to what you say joe. Also their is this strange thing called a salary cap now. We can't afford another true top 6 forward either without opening further weaknesses into our offense and defensive lines.

In a perfect world come the start of the season we will have a full roster + 1.5-2.5 million in cap space for a potential trade deadline spot fill in to "load up" for a cup run. Thus grabbing a true top 6. But the way it appears with how the cap has gone until it increases to 75+ million I firmly believe most contending teams unless they have a bunch of rfa drafted players will not have a "true top 6" nor will they have a full 3 d lines where everyone fits correctly.

Most contenders the past 3-5 years outside of the cawks first cup where generally 5/6 on d and 5/6 on top 6 forwards till the trade deadline. Also the cawks when they won their first cup where absolutely unbelievable how they were able to fit in every they did that year.

I would much rather miss out on one true top 6 forward to roll 3 puck possesion lines any day of the week and twice on sundays. Because unless a playoff opponent has a stacked d line (and more than likely severe offensive problems due to this) we will always be able to have at least one line matchup that will cause our opponent fits.
We actually can, fairly easily as well.

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07-21-2013, 10:12 AM
  #96
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So it boils down to Gator being so crappy that he needs to be carried by Z/D so he doesn't ruin the bottom six?

Fantastic. I have heard that argument plenty of times and it makes zero sense. You get rid of a player like that. You don't put him on the first line. It's an indefensible move.

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07-21-2013, 10:39 AM
  #97
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This is just not true.
Datsyuk's numbers with Abby show this is absolutely not the case.

I'd take a 38-year-old, wonky-back Bertuzzi with all his drop passes to nobody over Abdelkader -- on a scoring line -- any day of the week.

If you went Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi for 14- minutes a night, Bert would undoubtedly produce more than Abdelkader.

While Bertuzzi is far from ideal, he's been a pretty consistent even strength producer:

11-12 14 goals 34 points in 983 minutes
10-11 14 goals 38 in 1163 minutes
09-10 14 goals 33 points in 1161 minutes

My guess is he'd score 18 to 25 goals at ES and 45 to 50 points.

Bert would provide size and some enforcement. He wouldn't be as physical as Abdelkader. But he'd be better at winning possession of the puck, protecting the puck, and passing the puck.

The problem is Bertuzzi is standing still half the time anymore and he'll never play those minutes again. His body is breaking down and it's breaking down quickly here.

Abdelkader is evolving into the very type player teams look for towards the trade deadline. Speed, physical play, responsibility and he can play minutes on top lines without hurting your team.

Right now, he's the best option on that wing. He's earned it over the last season and he's going to stay there until Babcock decides against it.

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07-21-2013, 10:45 AM
  #98
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Bert has skill but the problem is, the line does not need more skill. Only 1 guy gets to have the puck at time. I rather it be on Pav or Z than Bert. Plus Bertuzzi's biggest draw is his defensive discipline. We need someone who is dedicated on that philosophy. Bert has improved a bit but I dont think he will ever become a defensibly solid player. Also he hasn't been healthy for quite a while now... and kinda slow both physically and mentally at this point in his career.

Abby drives to the goal, he makes a room. He gets the puck well and protect it. It's a skill that not many can do well in NHL despite some of you who think it's a basic skill. His athletic ability improved quite a bit from last season and after a season with Dats, I thought he was ready to play with Z and Pav.

If you understand Datsyuk, as some of you claim you do, he doesn't like players staying around near him. He wants space like artists want blank canvass. It gives him freedom to plan out strategic steps ahead. A guy like malkin is a total waste on Datsyuk's line because he would want a puck as well and would be occupying a space around Datsyuk. With Z it becomes bit complicated because I would be way overstepping my knowledge to explain the magic between the two but Z understands ice just as well as Pav and they both mesh well personality wise. Even then Z turns to bit of supporting role when playing with Pav. So what I'm saying is other than euro twins, that line just needs someone who can do some heavy lifting and distract goalie.

I admire and have an indescribable respect for the work Homer did all his career because it's something I can't even fathom how anyone be able to do that all his career, but some of you are way overrating his ability and 'hockey IQ'. If he was THAT smart, he would have made all his line mates better no matter where he played. Granted, he knew what he was doing after years of experience and all that but after watching Abby during our last playoff run, it became clear to me he has good enough hockey IQ to play with Euro twins.

However, in eastern conference historically, there has been cases of dominant line where you do not have anyone doing the heavy lifting. Of course, those lines usually get shut down by the end of SC final (usually way before) but it wouldn't hurt to experiment as I've stated before.

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07-21-2013, 11:33 AM
  #99
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If you consider all the forwards that Z-D played with over the years, I think the best combination is one no one has mentioned yet: Two kids and a goat.

Brett Hull. Pure sniper.

And unlike Homer, Brett didn't park in front of the net but no one ever had to tell him to shoot the puck either. Homer's game required the Lidstrom-Rafalski combination firing pucks from the point. I used to laugh that we had 4 players worth $6-7 MM each setting up the mediocre talent for goals. What a system.


Alfredsson would be my choice because he will shoot. And unlike Abby, he's probably fairly effective at it.

Agree with the consensus that Abby on the top line is some cosmic joke.

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07-21-2013, 11:38 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
If you consider all the forwards that Z-D played with over the years, I think the best combination is one no one has mentioned yet: Two kids and a goat.

Brett Hull. Pure sniper.

And unlike Homer, Brett didn't park in front of the net but no one ever had to tell him to shoot the puck either. Homer's game required the Lidstrom-Rafalski combination firing pucks from the point. I used to laugh that we had 4 players worth $6-7 MM each setting up the mediocre talent for goals. What a system.


Alfredsson would be my choice because he will shoot. And unlike Abby, he's probably fairly effective at it.

Agree with the consensus that Abby on the top line is some cosmic joke.
two kids and a goat

playmaker, heavy lifter, and a sniper

sounds exactly like Pav, Homer/Abby, Z

you are so focused on name 'Brett Hull' that you forgot who else was on that line and what they role they served on that line

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