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Old
07-20-2013, 06:43 PM
  #151
sampollock
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Boils down to size in the. Back end. Habs lack that for now

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07-20-2013, 06:47 PM
  #152
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Boils down to size in the. Back end. Habs lack that for now
Bergy and Timmins should be looking in getting a defenseman with size and nastiness like Tinordi in the next draft.

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07-20-2013, 06:57 PM
  #153
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Bergy and Timmins should be looking in getting a defenseman with size and nastiness like Tinordi in the next draft.
Really the only thing that I was truly disappointed about and that was not getting at least one of those big, good skating, nasty D-men in this last draft, of which there were quite a few. In terms of where we were picking I was hoping for Heatherington first and foremost, but then guys like Diaby and Santini. Don't get me wrong, I think our picks made sense and am quite pleased with them, just wish we had that one extra 2nd rounder to nab Heatherington. Yes, I know we had 3, just being greedy.

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07-20-2013, 07:08 PM
  #154
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Love this line, so true, from Craig Rivet on being asked about playing in Montreal after being dealt to the Sharks. In Montreal, its " so what have you done for me now"
At times, I wonder which is dumbest between Habs Board posters or the Stock Market.

Neither seem to have any grasp of notions of time. For either, what is always has been always will be.

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Old
07-20-2013, 07:16 PM
  #155
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Really the only thing that I was truly disappointed about and that was not getting at least one of those big, good skating, nasty D-men in this last draft, of which there were quite a few. In terms of where we were picking I was hoping for Heatherington first and foremost, but then guys like Diaby and Santini. Don't get me wrong, I think our picks made sense and am quite pleased with them, just wish we had that one extra 2nd rounder to nab Heatherington. Yes, I know we had 3, just being greedy.
I wanted to nab at least 1 defenseman this draft with one of our 2nd rounders, but our picks were still great picks, so I ain't mad.

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07-20-2013, 07:40 PM
  #156
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Personally, unless we finish top 10, I'd move our first and our 2nd to move up in the draft as far as we could.

If there's a good young player available for a 1st, I'd deal ours for him.

At this point we have to start building our team. If we move up and get another good prospect, or acquire a good young player it's good. We don't need anymore alright players that project to be weak 2nd liners, good 3rd liners.

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07-20-2013, 07:52 PM
  #157
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Personally, unless we finish top 10, I'd move our first and our 2nd to move up in the draft as far as we could.

If there's a good young player available for a 1st, I'd deal ours for him.

At this point we have to start building our team. If we move up and get another good prospect, or acquire a good young player it's good. We don't need anymore alright players that project to be weak 2nd liners, good 3rd liners.
I was pretty dead set against trading picks, especially high to mid ones because we needed to boost our depth both in quality and numbers and we might as well use to our advantage one of our best assets in TT. However, I agree we are at the point where we should be creative and willing to use our picks. Depends where we finish of course but Im open to trying to move up really high in a draft to get a guy who could make the team now or in a year from now as opposed to holding onto picks that get us guys who will take that 3-4 years to develop. We will have to pay up, but that's how it is.

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07-20-2013, 07:54 PM
  #158
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Personally, unless we finish top 10, I'd move our first and our 2nd to move up in the draft as far as we could.

If there's a good young player available for a 1st, I'd deal ours for him.

At this point we have to start building our team. If we move up and get another good prospect, or acquire a good young player it's good. We don't need anymore alright players that project to be weak 2nd liners, good 3rd liners.
agreed with that.

accumulating prospect depth is great, but a bit of a waste if at least some of those prospects aren't then used to upgrade the current roster.

With Subban under 25, and then:

Tinordi
Beaulieu
Dietz
Ellis
Thrower
Pateryn
Nygren
Bennett

that's a big pool of solid prospects on defense. no way all 8 of them end up playing significant roles with the team, better to move a few while they still have some value, then have a repeat of the weber situation where they don't ever get a real shot at making the team and then are cut/waived b/c of age-contract reasons.

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07-20-2013, 08:07 PM
  #159
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agreed with that.

accumulating prospect depth is great, but a bit of a waste if at least some of those prospects aren't then used to upgrade the current roster.

With Subban under 25, and then:

Tinordi
Beaulieu
Dietz
Ellis
Thrower
Pateryn
Nygren
Bennett

that's a big pool of solid prospects on defense. no way all 8 of them end up playing significant roles with the team, better to move a few while they still have some value, then have a repeat of the weber situation where they don't ever get a real shot at making the team and then are cut/waived b/c of age-contract reasons.
Agree, I think MB got caught there and Im not saying he is to blame at all, it was just too many numbers wise and Weber was the odd man out. I read somewhere that MB wanted at least a 3rd rounder for Weber but the fact the guy didn't get any ice time doesn't exactly help in getting assets in return. MB couldn't tell MT to play Weber to showcase him for a trade, that's crossing a line, so then we get what happened. I know a lot of people didn't like Weber but I think if he had some ice-time we would have gotten something for him. MB does need to maneuver here because as you showed, we have a ton of young guys knocking and about to knock on the door. For the younger guys MT did a good job in giving Pateryn, Tinordi and Nathan B looks. We need to do the same for other guys this year as well to first and foremost see what we have in them, with a side benefit that other teams also get to take a look.

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07-20-2013, 08:55 PM
  #160
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Agree, I think MB got caught there and Im not saying he is to blame at all, it was just too many numbers wise and Weber was the odd man out. I read somewhere that MB wanted at least a 3rd rounder for Weber but the fact the guy didn't get any ice time doesn't exactly help in getting assets in return. MB couldn't tell MT to play Weber to showcase him for a trade, that's crossing a line, so then we get what happened. I know a lot of people didn't like Weber but I think if he had some ice-time we would have gotten something for him. MB does need to maneuver here because as you showed, we have a ton of young guys knocking and about to knock on the door. For the younger guys MT did a good job in giving Pateryn, Tinordi and Nathan B looks. We need to do the same for other guys this year as well to first and foremost see what we have in them, with a side benefit that other teams also get to take a look.
I don't agree that he got caught, you can NEVER have too many defensive prospects. Once they've had a little more seasoning, I bet he'll be able to make some decent projections and discern which he will keep and which could be an attractive piece in a trade. You must build assets like these to be able to be active in meaningful trades.

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07-20-2013, 09:06 PM
  #161
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I don't agree that he got caught, you can NEVER have too many defensive prospects. Once they've had a little more seasoning, I bet he'll be able to make some decent projections and discern which he will keep and which could be an attractive piece in a trade. You must build assets like these to be able to be active in meaningful trades.
No, didn't mean that we can have too many defensive prospects or any other kind of prospects for that matter, just that Weber wasn't playing, anywhere, so if he was a player who should have had a trade value, we couldn't get it because nobody saw what he could do this year. Agree with everything else.

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Old
07-20-2013, 09:56 PM
  #162
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And again. I agree with this. I am as frustrated as you are about the lack of long term moves. Ottawa bothers me a lot. Ryan. That pisses me off. Much more than than not signing 32 year old useless UFAs.

I scratch my head as well, but I am not as worried about Briere as you are.

Now: If Bergy does not land an excellent young piece or two in trade next summer, then I will freak the **** out.

It is interesting LG. Habs are transiting from a mediocre to contending team. And Bergy needs to act. None of us are used to this, but I can see that you are adjusting to the idea, as most of us are.

But I still think that Briere is a filler for now. You think we should be acting right now, and you may be correct. I on the other hand am willing to wait one more year, and get a top ten pick in the meanwhile, which I know you would not object to.
The idea of a top ten pick in 2013 certainly made sense to me before the year began. We came in 15th and I felt that we should deal vets and get some picks... Figured we'd finish low anyway and get that top pick. Galchenyuk and Gallagher making the team ensured us being much better than we otherwise were. Price was brilliant for 3/4 of the season and PK had a Norris winning season. Everything went right for us in the regular season last year until the last ten games or so...

With the youngsters added (esp Galchenyuk) I figured this year we could stock up at the draft (which we did) and then look to get better in the offseason. If we tank and get a top ten pick next year... it's actually not good. We should be trying to build off last year because our core is coming into its prime. Don't know if its a cup contending core but at some point we have to give it an honest shot.

Like I said, I think we didn't rebuild enough. We were stupid and we'd be a lot further ahead now. Whatever... it's done. Now we have to play the cards we're dealt. The players we've chosen to build our core around are coming into their prime now. We had a good year last season. I felt like with a PF and a big shutdown guy we'd actually be a force to be reckoned with.

We didn't need a stopgap or filler type of move. We had specific needs that have (so far) been ignored and we've exacerbated what was already a big weakness. Okay, it's only for two years. But that's two years of Max, Price and Subban that I see as being wasted. If we added a big winger and a big shutdown blueliner, I think we could've made some noise. Even just adding the shutdown guy I think would've been a big plus.

I've seen this movie before. We go into the playoffs and get pushed around. It's time to change the culture of this team. MB had a golden opportunity to do this (and indicated that this was what he was going to do) and instead repeated the errors of the past.

Getting Briere pushed us further away than we were before. I believe this was done because our GM was unable to make the moves he wanted and decided to make a window dressing move to appease the fans. It hurts us more than it helps and I think delays our window for being able to win a cup. And it's not like he went out and got young talent that would improve and help us build our team around. I think it was more of a political move than anything and I find this extremely frustrating.

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07-20-2013, 10:13 PM
  #163
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I think Bergevin hasn't made ''the big move'' because its not time for it yet. We need to accumulate valuable assets then tweak the team by trading the surplus for players we need. We'll see what Bergy is made of once we're closer to contention.

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07-20-2013, 10:31 PM
  #164
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I think Bergevin hasn't made ''the big move'' because its not time for it yet. We need to accumulate valuable assets then tweak the team by trading the surplus for players we need. We'll see what Bergy is made of once we're closer to contention.
I think the same. The last two drafts have really stocked up our prospect pool and before that we were pretty thin. With a deep, talented pipeline we are in a better position to deal. But at the same time, it always seems to be "the team is not in position to make the big move." Maybe it's time to reconsider when to make that move?

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07-20-2013, 10:58 PM
  #165
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The idea of a top ten pick in 2013 certainly made sense to me before the year began. We came in 15th and I felt that we should deal vets and get some picks... Figured we'd finish low anyway and get that top pick. Galchenyuk and Gallagher making the team ensured us being much better than we otherwise were. Price was brilliant for 3/4 of the season and PK had a Norris winning season. Everything went right for us in the regular season last year until the last ten games or so...
I didn't think we'd be where we were at this season. I knew we were better than last in the Conference but thought we'd be fighting for that last playoff spot or just outside. Having another top talent forward like Galchenyuk to build with would have been great for the future. But a lot of young players had it come together this year and made the season exciting.

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With the youngsters added (esp Galchenyuk) I figured this year we could stock up at the draft (which we did) and then look to get better in the offseason. If we tank and get a top ten pick next year... it's actually not good. We should be trying to build off last year because our core is coming into its prime. Don't know if its a cup contending core but at some point we have to give it an honest shot.
We definitely added depth to our prospect pool but they're more than likely to be complimentary pieces. Hopefully some turn out to be more but it's hard to get those with later picks. But after this year we can't take a step back and need to continue to give the young core ample opportunities.

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Like I said, I think we didn't rebuild enough. We were stupid and we'd be a lot further ahead now. Whatever... it's done. Now we have to play the cards we're dealt. The players we've chosen to build our core around are coming into their prime now. We had a good year last season. I felt like with a PF and a big shutdown guy we'd actually be a force to be reckoned with.
It would have been nice to get another top prospect coming in, but the year we had was due to the young players stepping up. I agree with the pieces you suggested we need. But the UFA period was definitely not the time to acquire them. Those need to be picked up through trades. The team felt it wasn't time to do that. It is nice to build up that prospect pool to be able to deal from a position of strength, but it always seems to not be the time. Is that time going to come, or do we have to make it happen?

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We didn't need a stopgap or filler type of move. We had specific needs that have (so far) been ignored and we've exacerbated what was already a big weakness. Okay, it's only for two years. But that's two years of Max, Price and Subban that I see as being wasted. If we added a big winger and a big shutdown blueliner, I think we could've made some noise. Even just adding the shutdown guy I think would've been a big plus.

I've seen this movie before. We go into the playoffs and get pushed around. It's time to change the culture of this team. MB had a golden opportunity to do this (and indicated that this was what he was going to do) and instead repeated the errors of the past.

Getting Briere pushed us further away than we were before. I believe this was done because our GM was unable to make the moves he wanted and decided to make a window dressing move to appease the fans. It hurts us more than it helps and I think delays our window for being able to win a cup. And it's not like he went out and got young talent that would improve and help us build our team around. I think it was more of a political move than anything and I find this extremely frustrating.
I don't like bringing in Briere without other moves being made because he is more of the same and not the diversity/balance we need on the team. I hope to see other moves that brings some clarity to this one, but only time will tell. I just hope Briere, Gionta, and Desharnais don't take the minutes and opportunites away from Galchenyuk, Eller, and Gallagher that need them to take the team forward into the upcoming seasons.

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07-20-2013, 11:12 PM
  #166
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Due to the tradition of injury issues in Habsistan, we might conceivably find that Bourque and Pacioretty are simultaneously injured at some point this year, and then our top offensive line will be Briere-Desharnais-Gallagher.

We have four very small forwards, Briere at 5'7", Desharnais at 5'5", Gionta at 5'7" and Gallagher at 5'9". Three of these players are "offense-only". Briere and Desharnais are simply terrible at two-way play, and Gallagher probably needs more time to develop.

We then have Plekanec at 5'10". It's an extremely unstable situation... Bergevin may have imagined that they'll play on different lines, but a good GM should never visualize the lines before the season starts. The lines people predict prior to seasons starting never last long.

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07-21-2013, 12:07 AM
  #167
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I didn't think we'd be where we were at this season. I knew we were better than last in the Conference but thought we'd be fighting for that last playoff spot or just outside. Having another top talent forward like Galchenyuk to build with would have been great for the future. But a lot of young players had it come together this year and made the season exciting.



We definitely added depth to our prospect pool but they're more than likely to be complimentary pieces. Hopefully some turn out to be more but it's hard to get those with later picks. But after this year we can't take a step back and need to continue to give the young core ample opportunities.



It would have been nice to get another top prospect coming in, but the year we had was due to the young players stepping up. I agree with the pieces you suggested we need. But the UFA period was definitely not the time to acquire them. Those need to be picked up through trades. The team felt it wasn't time to do that. It is nice to build up that prospect pool to be able to deal from a position of strength, but it always seems to not be the time. Is that time going to come, or do we have to make it happen?



I don't like bringing in Briere without other moves being made because he is more of the same and not the diversity/balance we need on the team. I hope to see other moves that brings some clarity to this one, but only time will tell. I just hope Briere, Gionta, and Desharnais don't take the minutes and opportunites away from Galchenyuk, Eller, and Gallagher that need them to take the team forward into the upcoming seasons.
Good post. I think you're right about it having to come from trades. Very weak UFA market this offseason. That's kind of why I was hoping we'd have avoided it altogether.

Scuderi made sense... Pittsburgh did well getting him back.
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Due to the tradition of injury issues in Habsistan, we might conceivably find that Bourque and Pacioretty are simultaneously injured at some point this year, and then our top offensive line will be Briere-Desharnais-Gallagher.

We have four very small forwards, Briere at 5'7", Desharnais at 5'5", Gionta at 5'7" and Gallagher at 5'9". Three of these players are "offense-only". Briere and Desharnais are simply terrible at two-way play, and Gallagher probably needs more time to develop.

We then have Plekanec at 5'10". It's an extremely unstable situation... Bergevin may have imagined that they'll play on different lines, but a good GM should never visualize the lines before the season starts. The lines people predict prior to seasons starting never last long.
Replace Briere with Ryan and our roster would've looked so much better. Only question is: what would we have had to give up?

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07-21-2013, 12:24 AM
  #168
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Would you do a Gagner for Plekanec deal? Straight up?

Adds to the youth of the club

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07-21-2013, 12:27 AM
  #169
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Bergy and Timmins should be looking in getting a defenseman with size and nastiness like Tinordi in the next draft.
Too late. That player would not be in our cup window, at least not effectively. If we need one, we will need to trade for a big tough D, no question.

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07-21-2013, 12:47 AM
  #170
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The idea of a top ten pick in 2013 certainly made sense to me before the year began. We came in 15th and I felt that we should deal vets and get some picks... Figured we'd finish low anyway and get that top pick. Galchenyuk and Gallagher making the team ensured us being much better than we otherwise were. Price was brilliant for 3/4 of the season and PK had a Norris winning season. Everything went right for us in the regular season last year until the last ten games or so...

With the youngsters added (esp Galchenyuk) I figured this year we could stock up at the draft (which we did) and then look to get better in the offseason. If we tank and get a top ten pick next year... it's actually not good. We should be trying to build off last year because our core is coming into its prime. Don't know if its a cup contending core but at some point we have to give it an honest shot.

Like I said, I think we didn't rebuild enough. We were stupid and we'd be a lot further ahead now. Whatever... it's done. Now we have to play the cards we're dealt. The players we've chosen to build our core around are coming into their prime now. We had a good year last season. I felt like with a PF and a big shutdown guy we'd actually be a force to be reckoned with.

We didn't need a stopgap or filler type of move. We had specific needs that have (so far) been ignored and we've exacerbated what was already a big weakness. Okay, it's only for two years. But that's two years of Max, Price and Subban that I see as being wasted. If we added a big winger and a big shutdown blueliner, I think we could've made some noise. Even just adding the shutdown guy I think would've been a big plus.

I've seen this movie before. We go into the playoffs and get pushed around. It's time to change the culture of this team. MB had a golden opportunity to do this (and indicated that this was what he was going to do) and instead repeated the errors of the past.

Getting Briere pushed us further away than we were before. I believe this was done because our GM was unable to make the moves he wanted and decided to make a window dressing move to appease the fans. It hurts us more than it helps and I think delays our window for being able to win a cup. And it's not like he went out and got young talent that would improve and help us build our team around. I think it was more of a political move than anything and I find this extremely frustrating.
Fair enough LG. But look at it this way. I agree that Bergy very likely tried to make deals, and the returns asked for were to steep. So he did not make the moves. Given our recent past (gomez cough) I am glad of that at least.

BUT: And this is where I completely agree with you: Bergy HAS to grow some balls at the deadline and next summer, and be willing to move pieces like Pleky so that we CONTEND in 2014-5. My clock is one year later than yours, but that's all.

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07-21-2013, 12:48 AM
  #171
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Would you do a Gagner for Plekanec deal? Straight up?

Adds to the youth of the club
I wouldn't. I don't think he helps our team moving forward and gives us the balance we need IMO. If we're moving Plekanec it should be for youth and more than one.

I don't want to see Plek's traded, but I thought if they were going to, this offseason would have been the year to do it with STL. They have a lot of young talent and needed the improvement on C. Now they got Roy and it won't work, but Plek's is a big improvement on him and may have worked before the signing.

But he's too important to us right now and we need to continue moving forward after the strong season this year.

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07-21-2013, 12:56 AM
  #172
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Fair enough LG. But look at it this way. I agree that Bergy very likely tried to make deals, and the returns asked for were to steep. So he did not make the moves. Given our recent past (gomez cough) I am glad of that at least.

BUT: And this is where I completely agree with you: Bergy HAS to grow some balls at the deadline and next summer, and be willing to move pieces like Pleky so that we CONTEND in 2014-5. My clock is one year later than yours, but that's all.
Trading Plekanec right now would be a massive shakeup to the team.

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07-21-2013, 01:05 AM
  #173
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It would have been nice to get another top prospect coming in, but the year we had was due to the young players stepping up. I agree with the pieces you suggested we need. But the UFA period was definitely not the time to acquire them. Those need to be picked up through trades. The team felt it wasn't time to do that. It is nice to build up that prospect pool to be able to deal from a position of strength, but it always seems to not be the time. Is that time going to come, or do we have to make it happen?
If I am wrong forgive me, but I think what LG is saying, and something I think also, is that Habs have had a half rebuild, primarily Chuckie and the last 2 drafts, and that is not enough.

Now, because we have Subby, Max and Price entering prime, we can't afford to rebuild any longer. We have to try to contend starting in 2014.

The half season screwed Habs last year. We likely would have picked top 15, if not top ten with a full season. No other team except maybe ducks overachieved more in the short season as Habs, while good teams like Philly underachieved, and got picks higher than they really deserve. If the NHL wanted to be fair, they could have canceled the 2013 draft and based the 2014 draft on this year and next combined results.

What LG is saying is the the rebuild should have started the year we got Gomer, and let so many FA go for nothing, not even picks.

That ship has sailed, and it's a shame. We waited too long to rebuild, and we got screwed by the half season this year: =Half rebuild.


Last edited by bsl: 07-21-2013 at 01:30 AM.
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07-21-2013, 01:11 AM
  #174
DAChampion
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
If I am wrong forgive me, but I htink what LG is saying, and something I think also, is that Habs have had a half rebuild, primarily Chuckie and the last 2 drafts, and that is not enough.

Now, because we have Subby, Max and Price entering prime, we can't afford to rebuild any longer. We have to try to contend starting in 2014.

The half season screwed Habs last year. We likely would have picked top 15, if not top ten with a full season.

What LG is saying is the the rebuild should have started the year we got Gomer, and let so man FA go for nothing, not even picks.

That ship has sailed, and it's a shame.
The tanking window has closed, as I predicted.

We now need to try and contend.

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07-21-2013, 01:14 AM
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NLHabsFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
If I am wrong forgive me, but I htink what LG is saying, and something I think also, is that Habs have had a half rebuild, primarily Chuckie and the last 2 drafts, and that is not enough.

Now, because we have Subby, Max and Price entering prime, we can't afford to rebuild any longer. We have to try to contend starting in 2014.

The half season screwed Habs last year. We likely would have picked top 15, if not top ten with a full season. No other team except maybe ducks overachieved more in the short season as Habs, while good teams like Philly underachieved, and got pick higher than they really deserve. If the NHL wanted to be fair, they could have canceled the 2013 draft and based the 2014 draft on this year and next combined results.

What LG is saying is the the rebuild should have started the year we got Gomer, and let so man FA go for nothing, not even picks.

That ship has sailed, and it's a shame.
I agree, we missed our opportunity that year with so many UFA's. Not only did we have so many, but they had value and could have completely changed the future of the Habs. Instead we let them walk for nothing and rebuilt through UFA.

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