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Old
07-21-2013, 11:51 AM
  #226
Estimated_Prophet
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So don't sign Briere. Keep the cap space and wait for the right moment to make a trade. Maybe it's at the deadline, maybe earlier...

Flyers are cap screwed. Coburn would actually help us. Go after him. That makes sense because it helps our team and gets us closer to a cup. Don't waste time on Briere who does absolutely nothing but window dressing.
Briere is only here to temporarily fill Ryder's spot. This team's true window for competing for a Cup is realistically two years away. His experience and creativity are a great resource for players like Galchenyuk and Gallagher as Plekanec and Gionta are not remotely creative offensive players.

Coburn would not be cheap and would cost at least a top prospect and 1st round pick. That is just too risky.....why not let our players develop for two more seasons and perhaps attempt a large acquisition then? Coburn could blow out a knee in the next two seasons and then what good is he to us when we are ready to contend. I know that is hypothetical but it wouldn't be smart to pay for that risk with valuable assets when we can do the same and trade for a guaranteed healthy player when we are closer to the goal of seriously contending.

Anyways.....we probably aren't going to agree on this so I will gracefully bow out on this one. Don't have the energy or time to lawyer up and debate this for pages on end.

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07-21-2013, 11:53 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I was actually okay with signing DD for 3.5. But four years was too long. The problem isn't so much DD. It's that DD is a smurf surrounded by smurfs.

And adding Briere to a roster that already has DD? Bleecchchh...
Exactly... Cap hit was fine, but 4 years is a long time for a guy with a limited track record AND whose physical stature contributes to a team issue in need of addressing.

Wasn't a terrible signing but wasn't an immediate need & hindsight (based on his poor second half/playoffs) didn't work out kindly.

Adding briere amplifies the negative impact.

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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
Mediocre prospects? Really?
They might not be famous names, but hardly mediocre... Or maybe you have wildly exaggerated expectations of what a good prospects pool consists of

Aren we ranked top 5 prospects wise on here?
Galch-tinordi-beaulieu-Gallagher (with subban-price-Eller-maxpac in place) do give us a mice group of better than average young players/prospects (even elite), and we have great depth in the average-mediocre tier...

But a lot of teams have similar depth in that tier... Developing & schrewdly packaging those assets to upgrade either to higher level players OR to making strategic roster-fit type upgraded will be important.

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07-21-2013, 11:57 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
and how do we acquire coburn exctly? I think we can't possibly come out of a trade for coburn better than without.

It's easy to say 'get this guy', but at the moment, we have so few desirable pieces that I can't forsee a trade for him possible at all.

So, what would you send philly's way?
Don't know what they'd want. But they're under pressure and that gives us leverage (or at least it would if we hadn't of signed Briere.) Coburn is probably the best available guy out there. If the asking price is too high... move on.

Get a shutdown guy, it's not that hard to do.

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07-21-2013, 12:03 PM
  #229
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@ miller time (on iPhone, **** quoting)

yeah I agree that we should package some prospects to get better players, but beside brolieu and tinordi, none of th are developed enough to trade. So gotta wait.

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07-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Don't know what they'd want. But they're under pressure and that gives us leverage (or at least it would if we hadn't of signed Briere.) Coburn is probably the best available guy out there. If the asking price is too high... move on.

Get a shutdown guy, it's not that hard to do.
It is becoming obvious that our new management doesn't have a plan and is just cobbling together something to pretend they do. You say it isn't hard but when was the last time this team actually moved towards a specific goal?

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07-21-2013, 12:05 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Briere is only here to temporarily fill Ryder's spot. This team's true window for competing for a Cup is realistically two years away. His experience and creativity are a great resource for players like Galchenyuk and Gallagher as Plekanec and Gionta are not remotely creative offensive players.
The cup is realistically two years away partially because of this move. If we add a bigger winger instead of Briere we're looking a lot better. Briere was a completely redundant move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Coburn would not be cheap and would cost at least a top prospect and 1st round pick. That is just too risky.....why not let our players develop for two more seasons and perhaps attempt a large acquisition then? Coburn could blow out a knee in the next two seasons and then what good is he to us when we are ready to contend. I know that is hypothetical but it wouldn't be smart to pay for that risk with valuable assets when we can do the same and trade for a guaranteed healthy player when we are closer to the goal of seriously contending.
Philly is under pressure to make a move. They have to find a team with cap space, who have a need for this player and the assets to get him. We don't have to trade for him. That gives us leverage.

No way do I give up a top prospect and a first and there's no way they'd demand it. A 1st for Coburn should be good enough. Not many teams can have cap space to take him on. And those that do don't want to pay the expense. That's the most I'd pay. If they want more... no problem. Move on.

And I'd look at alternatives to giving up our 1st too. We might be able to come up with something else to give them. I don't know what Philly would want right now though.
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Anyways.....we probably aren't going to agree on this so I will gracefully bow out on this one. Don't have the energy or time to lawyer up and debate this for pages on end.
If your position is that we can grow slow and steady that's cool. I'm actually okay with that. Just don't be dumb and add window dressing moves that do nothing for us along the way... If the fans demand this (and I don't think they are) then ignore it. Build towards a cup. If he does this, then the fans will fall in line.

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07-21-2013, 12:10 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If the asking price is too high... move on.

Get a shutdown guy, it's not that hard to do.
who's to say that didn't happen already?

And shutdown guys probably aren't all tht easy to get, which brings me to my original point about us lacking trade assets...

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07-21-2013, 12:19 PM
  #233
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
who's to say that didn't happen already?
Nobody. But now that we've dealt for Briere its next to impossible because we don't have the same cap space anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
And shutdown guys probably aren't all tht easy to get, which brings me to my original point about us lacking trade assets...
Shutdown guys aren't that hard to get. Coburn might be harder because we couldn't give back a roster player.

We have tons to trade with: Gionta, DD, Markov, Leblanc, Collberg, picks....

We're not talking about trading for superstars man. There are 29 teams in the league, all with different needs. Somebody out there has a shutdown bluelliner available. A power forward on the other hand is a lot harder to get.

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07-21-2013, 12:22 PM
  #234
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Since you insist, my post was not a comparison between Kristo and Thomas. It was about management's intentions. If you make your first round draft pick based on the lack of size in your prospects pool, how can you then trade a potential top 6 prospect for a smaller one.

You may feel Thomas has more upside than Kristo. We could also name a few prospects with more upside than McCarron, despite being drafted later. The point is management doesn't seem to be consistent with its logic.
I'm also saying that on the size front, it's a wash.

It's easy to trade a guy with 0 goals and zero impact on the games for a player who:
a. is YOUNGER by two years
b. is having success at the AHL level
c. has a better attitude
d. could give the team 5 pre-UFA years rather than 2 years in Kristo's case.

Size is not all that matters in a plan. So do things like cap management and talent, of course.

The difference in size between these two skill plyaers is not significant enough to say that this trade is "against the plan to get bigger". No one thought that a 5'10 1/2 guy was making the club bigger. It's guys like Tinordi and McCarron and even Parros short-term that will do that.

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07-21-2013, 12:27 PM
  #235
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
It is becoming obvious that our new management doesn't have a plan and is just cobbling together something to pretend they do. You say it isn't hard but when was the last time this team actually moved towards a specific goal?
Like I said: If it doesn't help us get closer to a cup, then don't make the move. We apparently haven't learned that lesson yet.

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Old
07-21-2013, 12:31 PM
  #236
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LG, you have the posting stamina of an Olympian and I'm at ktv, on the wrong side of 9 beers, I'll reply tomorrow

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07-21-2013, 12:34 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
LG, you have the posting stamina of an Olympian and I'm at ktv, on the wrong side of 9 beers, I'll reply tomorrow
I'm just a very fast typist...

Enjoy your beers. I'm signing out for while too.

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07-21-2013, 12:54 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Right-on. Basically, the Habs have a major leak and Bergevin responds by purchasing another paddle.



I think the timing of our Cup window depends largely on how well our D develop. If Tinordi, Beauieu and Dietz/Ellis/Pateryn look legit -- and I'll bet we'll get a good look at them this season -- we could have a very solid, big, balanced defence by the following season. 2014/15 could be our time. Our D could be our strength, and almost all of it could be homegrown through the draft. If so, Plekanec should be a part of that. He'll still be in his prime, plus the leadership, experience, etc.

That means focusing on our forward depth. We need to get the right player, a real PF. I don't care how, but that's when Bergevin sprouts balls and gets it done. Trade the players you mentioned, add Bourque to the list, sweeten it with one D if necessary. I'll even speak heresy and offer Gallagher to get a star forward. We have to accept that to get someone big we have to give someone big.

The only other option is to get a prime UFA. I don't buy the idea that top UFAs won't come to Montreal. We just have offer enough. Trade away Briere, free up $4M and get the right guy, not just the available guy.
Before people complain that we didn't empty the cupboard to get Bobby Ryan, don't forget he is on the last year of his contract, and he has a reputation for being a hard player to negotiate with. Ottawa could end up giving up a lot of good long-term assets for one year of Ryan, and the same would have gone for us.

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07-21-2013, 01:03 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Before people complain that we didn't empty the cupboard to get Bobby Ryan, don't forget he is on the last year of his contract, and he has a reputation for being a hard player to negotiate with. Ottawa could end up giving up a lot of good long-term assets for one year of Ryan, and the same would have gone for us.
Ryan probably doesn't have a lot of loyalty towards the Sen's yet and there's a good chance he'll ask for the moon in a contract extension next summer, which would either delay it, cause them to move him afraid they're going to lose him for nothing, or actually lose him to UFA. Will be even tougher for them if they stay on their internal cap.

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07-21-2013, 01:05 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Right-on. Basically, the Habs have a major leak and Bergevin responds by purchasing another paddle.



I think the timing of our Cup window depends largely on how well our D develop. If Tinordi, Beauieu and Dietz/Ellis/Pateryn look legit -- and I'll bet we'll get a good look at them this season -- we could have a very solid, big, balanced defence by the following season. 2014/15 could be our time. Our D could be our strength, and almost all of it could be homegrown through the draft. If so, Plekanec should be a part of that. He'll still be in his prime, plus the leadership, experience, etc.

That means focusing on our forward depth. We need to get the right player, a real PF. I don't care how, but that's when Bergevin sprouts balls and gets it done. Trade the players you mentioned, add Bourque to the list, sweeten it with one D if necessary. I'll even speak heresy and offer Gallagher to get a star forward. We have to accept that to get someone big we have to give someone big.

The only other option is to get a prime UFA. I don't buy the idea that top UFAs won't come to Montreal. We just have offer enough. Trade away Briere, free up $4M and get the right guy, not just the available guy.
All of what you said makes sense but that last parts logic doesn't even make sense in NHL13 if you trade a guy right after signing him no doubt guys will be hesitant to sign here... Come on use logic

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07-21-2013, 01:10 PM
  #241
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The Bergevin bashing on here by some is... well... laughable at best.

The people spitting on him today will be the same people kissing his... feet later. Watch...

Mind you, we're on HFBoards where people will try to save face no matter the lack of logic behind it.

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07-21-2013, 01:11 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Habsfannick View Post
All of what you said makes sense but that last parts logic doesn't even make sense in NHL13 if you trade a guy right after signing him no doubt guys will be hesitant to sign here... Come on use logic
NMC anyway. The point is moot.

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07-21-2013, 01:40 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody. But now that we've dealt for Briere its next to impossible because we don't have the same cap space anymore.

Shutdown guys aren't that hard to get. Coburn might be harder because we couldn't give back a roster player.

We have tons to trade with: Gionta, DD, Markov, Leblanc, Collberg, picks....

We're not talking about trading for superstars man. There are 29 teams in the league, all with different needs. Somebody out there has a shutdown bluelliner available. A power forward on the other hand is a lot harder to get.
I think we actually DID get a shutdown blueliner, though not a top-notch one. I actually like Drewiske and think he will surprise people. He just needs to adapt to the system. To me, he is better at shutdown than Bouillon or Diaz already.

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07-21-2013, 01:43 PM
  #244
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I think we actually DID get a shutdown blueliner, though not a top-notch one. I actually like Drewiske and think he will surprise people. He just needs to adapt to the system. To me, he is better at shutdown than Bouillon or Diaz already.
I must not flame.
Flame is the account-killer.
Flame is the little-infraction that brings total account ban.
I will face my flame. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the flame has gone there will be nothing......Only I will remain

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07-21-2013, 01:56 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I must not flame.
Flame is the account-killer.
Flame is the little-infraction that brings total account ban.
I will face my flame. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the flame has gone there will be nothing......Only I will remain
Bene gesserit quote, quite random.....

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07-21-2013, 01:57 PM
  #246
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I think we actually DID get a shutdown blueliner, though not a top-notch one. I actually like Drewiske and think he will surprise people. He just needs to adapt to the system. To me, he is better at shutdown than Bouillon or Diaz already.

those 2 cant shut a barn door let alone play d

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07-21-2013, 01:57 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by rlyeh View Post
Bene gesserit quote, quite random.....
It's the Litany of Flame. Recite it to prevent yourself from saying stuff that would draw an infraction.


On that subject:


YOU THINK DREWISKEY IS BETTER THAN DIAZ DEFENSIVELY?!?!

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07-21-2013, 02:00 PM
  #248
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If the four years was too long, I presume you would have preferred two. But two years included ZERO UFA years, so $3.5M was not necessary. We should have either signed him 2 years at about $2.25M, knowing his limitations, or just waited to the end of the year.

The only way I was giving 4 years was for around $2.0M per year so that I had a highly tradeable contract. "You want long-term commitment, you give me a hometown discount."
or better yet

SAY NO AND WALK AWAY

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07-21-2013, 02:05 PM
  #249
rlyeh
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
It's the Litany of Flame. Recite it to prevent yourself from saying stuff that would draw an infraction.


On that subject:


YOU THINK DREWISKEY IS BETTER THAN DIAZ DEFENSIVELY?!?!
I haven't seen enough of Drewiske yet to make a call. I know that Diaz is quite efficient with d-zone puck retreival and shifting the play back up ice. It's when opposing teams are applying physical pressure that Diaz loses some of his efficiency. He's a smart player though. Have to wait to see how he handles himself this year. Last year's concussion probably impacted his playoffs (that and the Eller-Gryba incident which I think neutered Diaz). Though Drewiske might prove to be better as a shutdown D just because he's bigger and more robust. But again, it's wait and see.

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07-21-2013, 02:11 PM
  #250
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
The Bergevin bashing on here by some is... well... laughable at best.

The people spitting on him today will be the same people kissing his... feet later. Watch...

Mind you, we're on HFBoards where people will try to save face no matter the lack of logic behind it.
Yeah, kind of like the folks defending the bridge deal for Subban...

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