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Old
07-21-2013, 01:55 PM
  #51
Kris Chreider
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Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
i wouldnt want him in the pp simply because we have better options, mcd staal dz stralman moore and richards all have better shots from the point.
Mr. High and Wide?


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07-21-2013, 04:35 PM
  #52
Dactyl
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
Mr. High and Wide?

yea yea he misses the net a lot but he is the most offensively skilled dman that we have

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07-21-2013, 04:42 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
yea yea he misses the net a lot but he is the most offensively skilled dman that we have
No, this guy is.







He made the pass to Miller.

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07-21-2013, 06:34 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
The PP run by Zucc and Brassard was better, but still inconsistent. Obviously, Nash does need to be a big part of this and possibly Richards too. I don't disagree with any of that.

But my post was more about psychology. How do you get these guys to believe that their powerplay is going to work? They clearly haven't believed that for years now.
I re-read my reply to you and I ment "we" instead of "you".

I agree with you too.

My point was just a general observation more than a response to your thoughts.

We can make it easy for ourself and ice two non-horrible PP units, but BR and Nash don't get significant roles on either and neither would have potential good...

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07-21-2013, 07:19 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
No, this guy is.







He made the pass to Miller.
ok i agree with this

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07-21-2013, 07:33 PM
  #56
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I'm not certain what has transpired to make McD the better offensive defenseman and explicitly so during the off season. I think everyone is idealizing McD a little too much. It's not to say he can't be what he's now expected to be (offensively), but even with his "overdue" offensive responsibilities and opportunities next year, I question just how realistic some of the expectations around here is. Take any other offensive defenseman in the league and look at what they're known for. From Byfluglien, Letang, Suter, Weber, Karlsson, Subban, Keith, Seabrook, Chara to Ehrhoff, Campbell, etc. etc. etc., are we really expecting McDonagh to match those guys? If not, I think we're forgetting about a solid season DZ had in 11-12 with our just below average PP. The last season wasn't his best because there were no timely goals, big moments, or PP magic on the part of DZ. This devaluation of DZ is coming from memory and this trend that's been happening around here with him being trade bait. This overestimation of McD's offensive output and skills is coming from his all star season last year, his overall value, his performance in the playoffs, his signing of a new contract and our fangirling of him.

If we were to be fair about MDZ's output (that I believe was affected the most by the style of game we played, out of all of our defensemen), and combine his last two seasons PPG, we would get .500. McD would be at .400.

This idea that McD will be given more offensive responsibilities while MDZ somehow doesn't get even more proportionally based on the type of defensemen they are is crazy. Sure, the defensemen will be utilized in more situations and get involved a lot more in all sorts of ways and in all sorts of situations but that's not McDonagh specific. The guy already has to shut down the best forwards in the league. If you think for a second that he's going to be thinking offense before covering all defensive bases first, then that would be incorrect. The reason why he's not used in an offensive role as much under Torts is because of the priority Torts has and the natural level of comfort McD has playing the style of game that he plays.

Given the amount of ice time McD plays night in and night out, I don't expect him to play exxtra minutes on the PP on a nightly basis over letting MDZ PMD the PP.

Also, I think the whole "better passing, puck possession, skating" stuff is a bit silly. When we start evaluating players based on their basic skill sets, it's because there's no better way to prove the point. All these skills have to translate into the overall style of games they play.


Last edited by Cresto: 07-21-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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07-21-2013, 07:44 PM
  #57
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Also, I think the posting of McD videos to prove he's a better offensive d man with better skills is silly. I can youtube MDZ highlights too. The Mr. High and Wide thing has already been discredited as statistically invalid and attributed instead to the fact that he does in fact that more shots in general and in spots where there's a higher chance the puck will miss the net (because of traffic and perhaps his need to pick corners).

MDZ outlet passes was his strength and downfall at one point was it not? He's improved on not making bone head decisions when making outlet passes and his outlet passing is still solid too. I'm just making random points in my MDZ defense now

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07-21-2013, 07:46 PM
  #58
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Step 1: get rid of Sullivan

Step 2: ?????

Step 3: Profit

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07-21-2013, 08:23 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post
No, this guy is.







He made the pass to Miller.









I absolutely love McDonagh. He's my favorite Ranger. I have his jersey. But MDZ has a risk taker mentality to him McDonagh will never have and he has the best offensive instincts on our team in terms of defensemen.

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07-21-2013, 08:28 PM
  #60
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McDonagh could very well surpass 50 points if you see him take more risks like MDZ does. The rare times you see that now is his acute awareness in OT situations and end-of-game situations where a pinch can do wrong (see the Vancouver OT goal, or Richards' goal in Phoenix with .1 seconds left - McDonagh's pinch kept the play alive there see

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07-21-2013, 08:33 PM
  #61
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If McDonagh had been given the PP time Del Zotto has been force fed the past two seasons he would easily outstrip him in points.

2013...

McDonagh, 19 points, 29 minutes on the power play (:38 a game)
Del Zotto, 21 points, 133 minutes on the power play (2:54 a game)

2011-2012

McDonagh, 32 points, 51 PP minutes (:37 a game)
Del Zotto, 41 points, 322 power play minutes (4:11 a game!)

In 2011-2012 amongst defensemen, Del Zotto played the minute equivalent of 161 full power plays (3rd most in the league). He got 14 power play points (20th in the league)

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07-21-2013, 08:35 PM
  #62
aufheben
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Having the best offensive instincts doesn't technically make you the best offensive defensemen...

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07-21-2013, 08:44 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
If McDonagh had been given the PP time Del Zotto has been force fed the past two seasons he would easily outstrip him in points.

2013...

McDonagh, 19 points, 29 minutes on the power play (:38 a game)
Del Zotto, 21 points, 133 minutes on the power play (2:54 a game)

2011-2012

McDonagh, 32 points, 51 PP minutes (:37 a game)
Del Zotto, 41 points, 322 power play minutes (4:11 a game!)

In 2011-2012 amongst defensemen, Del Zotto played the minute equivalent of 161 full power plays (3rd most in the league). He got 14 power play points (20th in the league)
It's likely, but in 11-12 McDonagh only had 2 PPPoints (one of those I clearly remember as a secondary assist where he cycled to Girardi who passed to Richards who fired a slapshot into the net where he did basically nothing on the play). Del Zotto had 14 PPP that season. Del Zotto had 6.78 times the PP time and 7 times the PPP.

In 12-13 he had one PPPoint. Del Zotto had 8. Del Zotto had 4.57 times the PP time and 8 times the points.

All this really shows is McDonagh is by far the better ES point producer. Del Zotto showed both seasons to be better with the time he was given on the PP in terms of points. McDonagh didn't get a look with the top PP unit and his sample time size is too small to draw conclusions from frankly. But it cannot be said that he wowed with the time he was given so much that he deserved it more than Del Zotto.

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07-21-2013, 08:47 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
Having the best offensive instincts doesn't technically make you the best offensive defensemen...
It does when we're talking about the power play, especially since neither are more impressive than the other when talking about stick skills or shot. McDonagh is a better skater (by far) but that doesn't matter much when it comes to the PP. His skating and ability to gain the zone (which is a byproduct partly of the skating) is excellent and superior to Del Zotto's and that's what gets him many of his ES points.

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07-21-2013, 09:40 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCrusty View Post
I'm not certain what has transpired to make McD the better offensive defenseman and explicitly so during the off season. I think everyone is idealizing McD a little too much. It's not to say he can't be what he's now expected to be (offensively), but even with his "overdue" offensive responsibilities and opportunities next year, I question just how realistic some of the expectations around here is. Take any other offensive defenseman in the league and look at what they're known for. From Byfluglien, Letang, Suter, Weber, Karlsson, Subban, Keith, Seabrook, Chara to Ehrhoff, Campbell, etc. etc. etc., are we really expecting McDonagh to match those guys? If not, I think we're forgetting about a solid season DZ had in 11-12 with our just below average PP. The last season wasn't his best because there were no timely goals, big moments, or PP magic on the part of DZ. This devaluation of DZ is coming from memory and this trend that's been happening around here with him being trade bait. This overestimation of McD's offensive output and skills is coming from his all star season last year, his overall value, his performance in the playoffs, his signing of a new contract and our fangirling of him.

If we were to be fair about MDZ's output (that I believe was affected the most by the style of game we played, out of all of our defensemen), and combine his last two seasons PPG, we would get .500. McD would be at .400.

This idea that McD will be given more offensive responsibilities while MDZ somehow doesn't get even more proportionally based on the type of defensemen they are is crazy. Sure, the defensemen will be utilized in more situations and get involved a lot more in all sorts of ways and in all sorts of situations but that's not McDonagh specific. The guy already has to shut down the best forwards in the league. If you think for a second that he's going to be thinking offense before covering all defensive bases first, then that would be incorrect. The reason why he's not used in an offensive role as much under Torts is because of the priority Torts has and the natural level of comfort McD has playing the style of game that he plays.

Given the amount of ice time McD plays night in and night out, I don't expect him to play exxtra minutes on the PP on a nightly basis over letting MDZ PMD the PP.

Also, I think the whole "better passing, puck possession, skating" stuff is a bit silly. When we start evaluating players based on their basic skill sets, it's because there's no better way to prove the point. All these skills have to translate into the overall style of games they play.
This post is absolutely perfect. McD is getting ridiculously overrated here on HFNYR. MDZ is being criminally underrated on HFNYR.

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07-21-2013, 09:59 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
If McDonagh had been given the PP time Del Zotto has been force fed the past two seasons he would easily outstrip him in points.

2013...

McDonagh, 19 points, 29 minutes on the power play (:38 a game)
Del Zotto, 21 points, 133 minutes on the power play (2:54 a game)

2011-2012

McDonagh, 32 points, 51 PP minutes (:37 a game)
Del Zotto, 41 points, 322 power play minutes (4:11 a game!)

In 2011-2012 amongst defensemen, Del Zotto played the minute equivalent of 161 full power plays (3rd most in the league). He got 14 power play points (20th in the league)
all valid but sir, have you seen our PP?

Our PP was worse than our EV in the PO almost the entire way despite getting so many PP.

The assumption that had McD gotten more time on the PP, he would have surpassed MDZ in points is based on the month old assumption that McD is inherently superior offensively.

In regards to McD's 32 points to MDZ's 41 points: McD has at least 5 minutes of more ice time per game than MDZ (if not more) playing even strength. Again, our PP sucked so the deficit in PP time isn't as big of an argument as it can be, although perfectly valid.

At best, the two cancels out.

The stat about getting the most PP time and being 20th in PP points, again, have you met our PP, that can't possibly be an indication of MDZ's shortcomings.

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07-21-2013, 10:51 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
It does when we're talking about the power play, especially since neither are more impressive than the other when talking about stick skills or shot. McDonagh is a better skater (by far) but that doesn't matter much when it comes to the PP. His skating and ability to gain the zone (which is a byproduct partly of the skating) is excellent and superior to Del Zotto's and that's what gets him many of his ES points.
I don't disagree that he has the best offensive instincts. But I can't argue with Fitzy's post. McDonagh's job is to shut the other team down, MDZ's job is to run the PP and contribute offensively. He should be blowing McD away production wise. Instincts only mean so much. I think this year will show a lot regarding this discussion.

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07-21-2013, 11:44 PM
  #68
Cresto
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Originally Posted by aufheben View Post
I don't disagree that he has the best offensive instincts. But I can't argue with Fitzy's post. McDonagh's job is to shut the other team down, MDZ's job is to run the PP and contribute offensively. He should be blowing McD away production wise. Instincts only mean so much. I think this year will show a lot regarding this discussion.
On this PP, I don't expect MDZ to blow anyone away. Under Torts, good defense leads to good offense for defenseman more so than good offensive instincts leading to good offensive opportunities.

This year will probably be MDZ's most important year considering his contract is done soon and our defensive depth will be shaken up next summer.

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