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The "Balls or No Balls" thread

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Old
07-21-2013, 02:24 PM
  #251
brian70
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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
As far as you not seeing how you could be biased, well, that's a problem I can't help you with. I doubt I'm the only one who feels your bias comes across too strong. No biggie, we all have a bias - I feel it's important to recognize your own as much as possible if you are to try to bring any objectivity to the table.
Now you're just being ridiculous. People will have different opinions on different subjects and you need to accept that. If, on the other hand, you feel we're all being biased, then there was no point in bringing it up. Unless you felt that would make your opinion more valid.

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07-21-2013, 02:41 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
The Bergevin bashing on here by some is... well... laughable at best.

The people spitting on him today will be the same people kissing his... feet later. Watch...

Mind you, we're on HFBoards where people will try to save face no matter the lack of logic behind it.
why does everything have to be so dramatic?

"spitting on him"?

come on... it's a hockey forum... the point is to discuss/debate/argue.

Just b/c some people don't agree with some decisions a GM makes, doesn't mean they are "bashing" him.


I liked the way his tenure started, but I disagree with several of his decisions in the past 6-7 months, and worse, I'm not convinced that they fit into the plan/direction he publicly stated for the team (and that his early moves/decisions seemed to support).

For the most part, i haven't really seen/read much that has been significantly more critical or harsh (outliers excluded... this is a public forum so some extreme opinions are par for the course and hardly worth addressing) than that.

He's the GM of a sports team that hasn't had much success in decades, and who has a rabid fan base. Anything short of homerun moves is bound to be criticized, I'm sure he's fine with that & doesn't need you policing the chat rooms calling out those who question some of his moves. \

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07-21-2013, 03:07 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by brian70 View Post
Now you're just being ridiculous. People will have different opinions on different subjects and you need to accept that. If, on the other hand, you feel we're all being biased, then there was no point in bringing it up. Unless you felt that would make your opinion more valid.
LOL of course, everyone has an opinion, it's something I accept with open arms!

You aren't understanding my point - that being your assessments of the acquisitions of McCarron, Briere and Thomas, and by extension on the job being done by our GM, was silly, based on little more than personal conjecture. It's fine to have your own opinion on something, but to feel your post was free of bias (and thus a simple statement of fact) is what is truly ridiculous.

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07-21-2013, 03:12 PM
  #254
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Yeah, kind of like the folks defending the bridge deal for Subban...
No, I meant like the people refusing to understand that it was all in the plan.

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07-21-2013, 03:22 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
I'm also saying that on the size front, it's a wash.

It's easy to trade a guy with 0 goals and zero impact on the games for a player who:
a. is YOUNGER by two years
b. is having success at the AHL level
c. has a better attitude
d. could give the team 5 pre-UFA years rather than 2 years in Kristo's case.

Size is not all that matters in a plan. So do things like cap management and talent, of course.

The difference in size between these two skill plyaers is not significant enough to say that this trade is "against the plan to get bigger". No one thought that a 5'10 1/2 guy was making the club bigger. It's guys like Tinordi and McCarron and even Parros short-term that will do that.
I'm not against trading Kristo. I simply fail to see the consequent reasoning behind the return. Whether Kristo was 5'11" or 5'9" doesn't make any difference.

Size is definitely an issue when your 1st pick is all about it. Adding Thomas to Gionta, Gallagher, Collberg, Hudon and Andrighetto does not address the size issue in any way. If you are to trade any assets and you consider lack of size as an issue, then that's what you should be aiming for. Unless you feel you've resolved the issue with McCarron and you're good to go, which wouldn't make much sense.

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07-21-2013, 03:59 PM
  #256
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It takes balls to be patient in a rabid hockey market . Many a Gm have failed because they got sidetracked from a long term plan. I like that Bergevin understands the risks of free agency and has turned to low risk moves to stopgap until the revamped development program bears fruit . The DD signing has created skeptics , and not everything will work out perfectly but under Bergevin there is finally a sense that the optimism for the future will materialize eventually in the present .

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07-21-2013, 04:39 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It takes balls to be patient in a rabid hockey market . Many a Gm have failed because they got sidetracked from a long term plan. I like that Bergevin understands the risks of free agency and has turned to low risk moves to stopgap until the revamped development program bears fruit . The DD signing has created skeptics , and not everything will work out perfectly but under Bergevin there is finally a sense that the optimism for the future will materialize eventually in the present .
Another ray of hope!

The ranks of rational, critical thinking posters is growing

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07-21-2013, 04:40 PM
  #258
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
No, I meant like the people refusing to understand that it was all in the plan.
Right, sorry I forgot that he planned on paying Subban additional millions of dollars for no reason. Refusing the 5 for 25 and now paying something like 5 for 40 or 6 for 48 was all part of the plan.

MB is the Special Agent OSO of GMs in that sense I guess...

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07-21-2013, 04:46 PM
  #259
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After one year, Bergevin's become the preacher of slow rebuilds, solid draft picks, safe trades and cautious contracts. Blockbuster deals and "Free-Agent Frenzy"? No thanks, we're on a strict diet. Well… maybe just a little nibble of Prust and a mini Briere brioche, but not too much or too long or it goes straight to our hips.

Bergevin took a franchise that was stuffing its belly with fatty contracts and stop-gap 30-year-olds, and turned it into a prudent, cap-conscious, youth-obsessed team of calorie-counters. In a red-meat league, we've become the vegetarians. During the trade deadline, draft day and free agency, while so many teams were dealing like drunken sailors, Montreal was the designated driver.

So we've trimmed the fat and look ten years younger. But now that the Habs are looking healthier, are we in danger of being TOO conservative? Nobody wants to go back to the days when we got hustled for assets, draft picks and cash, but are we afraid to make the bold move that separates real contenders from merely good teams? Look at most other Cup-winners and you see a balance of caution and balls. LA built much of its core through great draft picks, but then made two major deals trading big assets for Carter and Richards. Boston has spent big money on Chara and thrown the dice big-time dealing assets to get Rask and Seguin, and now Eriksson. Even Chicago, with the best group of draftees in the league, purchased big UFA, Marian Hossa.

The question is: What's the best balance of caution and balls for the Habs? Right now, I see a lot of caution, little balls. Bergevin says he's building through the draft, yet he was unwilling to do what it took to trade up for a higher pick. He says we need size, but hasn't been willing (so far) to part with assets to fill that gap. Make no mistake -- I'm not talking about throwing stupid contracts at mid-tier players, I'm talking about targeting a high-end need and doing whatever it takes to get him. Our strong prospect pool doesn't include a Drouin, Kane or Toews, nor do we have a wealth of 1st-line talent soon to explode like Edmonton. Our core and upcoming youth are good, but not elite. If we want a Stanley Cup, we'll need to trade or purchase a superior game-changing player or two.

Maybe the prices have all been too high. Maybe key players are already in discussion. I'm patient for now. But I expect to start seeing some ballsy moves between September and next trade deadline. Package some roster players, spend some serious money, I don't care. At some point, Bergevin will have to stop saying, "Thanks, we're good!" or "I tried", and start saying, "What will it take?".
Loved it great read and hits the nail on the head.

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07-21-2013, 04:49 PM
  #260
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I must not flame.
Flame is the account-killer.
Flame is the little-infraction that brings total account ban.
I will face my flame. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the flame has gone there will be nothing......Only I will remain
Neither Bouillon nor Diaz is capable of pinning his opponent to the boards and messing up the cycle. Drewiske can.

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07-21-2013, 04:50 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It takes balls to be patient in a rabid hockey market . Many a Gm have failed because they got sidetracked from a long term plan. I like that Bergevin understands the risks of free agency and has turned to low risk moves to stopgap until the revamped development program bears fruit . The DD signing has created skeptics , and not everything will work out perfectly but under Bergevin there is finally a sense that the optimism for the future will materialize eventually in the present .
This. Good post.

The balance required to our roster, or most of it, will come from the draft and development of our prospects. Some people believe that MB is contradicting himself by not doing what it took to move up the draft, but his mandate is to clearly keep the team competitive while he rebuilds. Thats the reason for his cautiousness and why the rebuild hasn't amounted to anything concrete yet. It's gonna take time people, don't set deadlines with this one.

The habs have needed a proper rebuild with not deviation from it's plan for so long. Gainey absolutely failed to do so and should've been fired in 2006-2007 when we missed the playoffs. Bergevin has not been perfect with everything IMO, but the essential part of his plan hasn't fallen through and likely won with all the pressure from this market.


Edit: TBH what the habs really needed was to finish last a couple of seasons. With our present defence and our struggling goalie, I wouldn't be surprised or mad if we do it a second time.


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07-21-2013, 04:53 PM
  #262
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I'm not against trading Kristo. I simply fail to see the consequent reasoning behind the return. Whether Kristo was 5'11" or 5'9" doesn't make any difference.

Size is definitely an issue when your 1st pick is all about it. Adding Thomas to Gionta, Gallagher, Collberg, Hudon and Andrighetto does not address the size issue in any way. If you are to trade any assets and you consider lack of size as an issue, then that's what you should be aiming for. Unless you feel you've resolved the issue with McCarron and you're good to go, which wouldn't make much sense.
Thomas is a top prospect that scored as many goals as Lars Eller did in his first year in the AHL. When someone is willing to give him to you in exchange for a player two years older with attitude and judgment issues who showed so little at the AHL level that he probably needs two more years there.....you grab it and don't worry that your acquisition is slightly smaller than the soft guy you are giving up.

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07-21-2013, 05:06 PM
  #263
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************* ‏@************* 3h As reported here #Habs and Brendan Morrow on the verge of signing a deal, the hold up? Habs waiting after RFA period to finish details #NSS

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07-21-2013, 05:52 PM
  #264
JohnnyB11
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Right, sorry I forgot that he planned on paying Subban additional millions of dollars for no reason. Refusing the 5 for 25 and now paying something like 5 for 40 or 6 for 48 was all part of the plan.

MB is the Special Agent OSO of GMs in that sense I guess...
Is there something wrong with paying PK what he's worth? Is this money coming out of your savings account?

Better than overpaying him before he's proved he's legit and then having another overpaid bum on the team.

I have no problem with it. Not my money, first of all, and second of allI have no problem with someone being paid what he deserves.

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07-21-2013, 05:54 PM
  #265
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Is there something wrong with paying PK what he's worth? Is this money coming out of your savings account?

Better than overpaying him before he's proved he's legit and then having another overpaid bum on the team.

I have no problem with it. Not my money, first of all, and second of allI have no problem with someone being paid what he deserves.
Is there any problem with saving money and potentially putting it elsewhere that can help us down the road? I don't think so. I don't think P.K got what he was worth on this bridge contract either.

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07-21-2013, 06:31 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Right, sorry I forgot that he planned on paying Subban additional millions of dollars for no reason. Refusing the 5 for 25 and now paying something like 5 for 40 or 6 for 48 was all part of the plan.

MB is the Special Agent OSO of GMs in that sense I guess...
I'd much rather we negociate with P.k as a RFA next year than have him be a UFA at the age of 28. Also I highly doubt P.k is going to ask for 8 million especially when you look at the contracts recently given to other superstar d-men like Karlsson : 7/45.5 cap hit of 6.5. Drew Doughty : 8/56 cap hit of 7.

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07-21-2013, 06:31 PM
  #267
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by JohnnyB11 View Post
Is there something wrong with paying PK what he's worth? Is this money coming out of your savings account?

Better than overpaying him before he's proved he's legit and then having another overpaid bum on the team.

I have no problem with it. Not my money, first of all, and second of allI have no problem with someone being paid what he deserves.
Yeah right, he's worth 2.8 million...
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Originally Posted by MonkeyBusiness View Post
I'd much rather we negociate with P.k as a RFA next year than have him be a UFA at the age of 28. Also I highly doubt P.k is going to ask for 8 million especially when you look at the contracts recently given to other superstar d-men like Karlsson : 7/45.5 cap hit of 6.5. Drew Doughty : 8/56 cap hit of 7.
Throw this in the other thread and I'll reply. I don't want to derail this one with a discussion on PK.

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07-21-2013, 06:34 PM
  #268
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Like I said: If it doesn't help us get closer to a cup, then don't make the move. We apparently haven't learned that lesson yet.
Agreed, it seems like they do things just so they can say they did something and then when people question it they pull some ******** like "character" and it is beyond question. Like this draft, we all know we need big/tough players but also TALENTED so they just go grab a bunch of big players. Now if these guys fail people will say "look we got big players and they suck!"

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07-21-2013, 06:45 PM
  #269
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Another ray of hope!

The ranks of rational, critical thinking posters is growing
There is intelligent life after all!!

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07-21-2013, 06:47 PM
  #270
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************* ‏@************* 3h As reported here #Habs and Brendan Morrow on the verge of signing a deal, the hold up? Habs waiting after RFA period to finish details #NSS
Source?

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07-21-2013, 06:54 PM
  #271
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Before people complain that we didn't empty the cupboard to get Bobby Ryan, don't forget he is on the last year of his contract, and he has a reputation for being a hard player to negotiate with. Ottawa could end up giving up a lot of good long-term assets for one year of Ryan, and the same would have gone for us.
Ryan would've been great, but yes, his contract may not have worked in the long term. I'm thinking more about next year's trade deadline, when Montreal could be a serious buyer of real talent from desperate teams.

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All of what you said makes sense but that last parts logic doesn't even make sense in NHL13 if you trade a guy right after signing him no doubt guys will be hesitant to sign here... Come on use logic
No, obviously, you don't trade a UFA two weeks after getting him. As I said above, I'm focused on deals that could be made as the season progresses, as certain players aren't working out and certain teams are realizing it's not their year. That's when a good GM has his eyes open and jumps. My example with Briere is another reason why I'm a bit frustrated with the signing -- if some good power-forward becomes available, we'll have $4M less cap space to bargain with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
It takes balls to be patient in a rabid hockey market . Many a Gm have failed because they got sidetracked from a long term plan. I like that Bergevin understands the risks of free agency and has turned to low risk moves to stopgap until the revamped development program bears fruit . The DD signing has created skeptics , and not everything will work out perfectly but under Bergevin there is finally a sense that the optimism for the future will materialize eventually in the present .
I agree 100%. I admired Bergevin for doing exactly what you described during the last trade deadline. He calmly watched other teams dole out idiotic contracts and then add a painless, cheap guy for defensive depth with Drewiske. That took balls. But my faith took a hit when he signed Briere. It's neither patient nor ballsy. It's a suck-up marketing move, not a hockey move. As you wrote: Bergevin "got sidetracked from a long term plan." What worries me is not the player himself -- I always liked Briere -- but that this organization is willing to use Salary Cap space to feed fan-lust for headlines and home-town heroes. The Canadiens have a massive marketing budget; build the fan buzz through that. The Salary Cap -- every penny of it --should be directed towards improving the team, not making it more palatable for the tabloids.

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07-22-2013, 08:34 AM
  #272
skidboot
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Source?



place on the Twitter...NHL Sources Say.

I don't put too much stock into any of these places but I thought that I would just throw it out there....

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07-22-2013, 09:03 AM
  #273
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place on the Twitter...NHL Sources Say.

I don't put too much stock into any of these places but I thought that I would just throw it out there....
People need to stop following those rumour bloggers all together, or at least stop believing them and reporting the crap they make up. And that includes Eklund!

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07-22-2013, 09:04 AM
  #274
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People need to stop following those rumour bloggers all together, or at least stop believing them and reporting the crap they make up. And that includes Eklund!
O

M

G



MORROW WILL SIGN HERE!!!



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07-22-2013, 02:22 PM
  #275
AJMHABS
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O

M

G



MORROW WILL SIGN HERE!!!


I wish, but now he's going to sign in Carolina or some other team because of these "bloggers".


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